Mount Point Issues?

[NewEnglandSkier]

Yes, a negative delta would be that toe is higher than the heel.
What is interesting to me about those charts listing the toe and heel height that seeming universally across many of the brands, the demos have a smaller delta than the retail bindings--even if it's only by 1mm (and in the case of the Marker bindings it's a negative delta). So for anyone who is sensitive to delta in the least bit, the retail bindings will never feel exactly like the demos even in the same model. Aggravating.
Look bindings seem to be the most consistent between demo and retail.

 

[WaterGirl]

Update: I emailed Big Sky Demo center asking if they install their demo bindings at the manufacturer recommended mount point. They got back to me saying that they do mount them at the recommended mount point.

I don't have enough experience with demo bindings.. but does that definitely mean that every size boot ends up at the recommended spot on the ski exactly? And I'm asking that because obviously a very small difference in where you are can make a huge difference with how a ski skis.

You can only assess the actual reality of where your boot is on the demo ski when you are demoing.

Which is why I check where my boot center line is in relationship to the factory line before I go out or when I come back from demoing.

Too many variables in the mounting of the demo binding, how your BSL fits in with the 'marks' on the demo binding for your BSL. It is a range if you look on the demo binding. Having a 275 boot vs a 270 may be in the same position, but its going to be +/-5mm of what ever arbitrary line is used for the factory recommended line. Just because they mount the demo binding on the mark (which doesn't make sense - what mark? I guess they center the binding?) it doesn't mean that your boot was on the factory line when you demoed.

FWIW Marker has a 100+ page information sheet of how to mount all bindings. I discovered that there are other variables with mounting a regular binding.

I understand that the Squire Demo does have a negative heel on its current model. This of course makes no ssense and seems to have created a slew of problems based on the number of posts by Diva's who's skis are not performing the same as when demoed. Certainly those with a shorter BSL can make the difference in toe/ heel heights more noticeable.

Hopefully the new tune will fix your issues @SquidWeaselYay

My only other advice is to run the same binding on all your skis if possible, that way you are familiar with how that binding's angles work with your boot set up.

EDIT - I see that the new Squire 12 adds 408 grams to the pair, almost a 1/2 lb per binding. Might as well step up to the Griffon @50g more per binding.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Just

You can only assess the actual reality of where your boot is on the demo ski when you are demoing.

Which is why I check where my boot center line is in relationship to the factory line before I go out or when I come back from demoing.

Too many variables in the mounting of the demo binding, how your BSL fits in with the 'marks' on the demo binding for your BSL. It is a range if you look on the demo binding. Having a 275 boot vs a 270 may be in the same position, but its going to be +/-5mm of what ever arbitrary line is used for the factory recommended line. Just because they mount the demo binding on the mark (which doesn't make sense - what mark? I guess they center the binding?) it doesn't mean that your boot was on the factory line when you demoed.

FWIW Marker has a 100+ page information sheet of how to mount all bindings. I discovered that there are other variables with mounting a regular binding.

I understand that the Squire Demo does have a negative heel on its current model. This of course makes no ssense and seems to have created a slew of problems based on the number of posts by Diva's who's skis are not performing the same as when demoed. Certainly those with a shorter BSL can make the difference in toe/ heel heights more noticeable.

Hopefully the new tune will fix your issues @SquidWeaselYay

My only other advice is to run the same binding on all your skis if possible, that way you are familiar with how that binding's angles work with your boot set up.

EDIT - I see that the new Squire 12 adds 408 grams to the pair, almost a 1/2 lb per binding. Might as well step up to the Griffon @50g more per binding.

.....well crap. So basically I screwed myself by not checking that when I demoed.

Hopefully the tune was the main issue then, cause it's going to be impossible for me to go back to Montana to see where my boot center line was in relationship to the factory line. I just looked at my boot in relation to the factory line on my old Santa Anas with the demo bindings, and it appears to be only 1-2mm (if any) forward of the factory line. But from what you are saying, that is only relevant to that ski with that binding.

I went with Wardens this time because on my last new set of skis, I put Squires on and I had the same issues with the demo feeling better than the actual ski I bought and mounted. So even with mounting squires on a ski I demoed that had demo squires, I ran into the same problem. Ugh. Maybe I just need to buy only demo bindings.

Heads up, might be a pair of barely used Nela 96's hitting the "gear for sale" page soon. Seems like I done messed up with this. Live and learn, I suppose.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Yes, a negative delta would be that toe is higher than the heel.
What is interesting to me about those charts listing the toe and heel height that seeming universally across many of the brands, the demos have a smaller delta than the retail bindings--even if it's only by 1mm (and in the case of the Marker bindings it's a negative delta). So for anyone who is sensitive to delta in the least bit, the retail bindings will never feel exactly like the demos even in the same model. Aggravating.
Look bindings seem to be the most consistent between demo and retail.

Seriously. This is has been an issue with the past 3 sets of skis I have bought. I ended up selling 2 of them because I figured it was conditions on demo day that made it feel good, or maybe I got a ski above my skill level, etc. My BSL is 273.

 

[WaterGirl]

.....well crap. So basically I screwed myself by not checking that when I demoed.

Not necessarily, and you have to understand I am very picky, I don't think that most people are even aware of this happening but I went thru this same issue years ago when I bought my first skis as a returning skier. 1st time I demo'ed I was set at +1.5 b/c the tech made a mistake when he set me up. I demoed again to make sure it was "the ski" and realized it wasn't when I was at the factory line.

Don't sell those nice skis! IF its not the tune, then just switch out the binding to a squire demo. and find what works best for you.

 

[sorcamc]

I finally had my boots softened last night at Killington Surefoot. I felt like I could get forward better on the Nelas this morning, and had a little more success, but overall I still feel like I’m struggling to control them. Im almost afraid the boots might be a little TOO soft now, but maybe I just have to get used to the difference. And my calves are hurting like hell! I didn’t get a tune yet, I feel like the most likely culprit is me being on gear that is too advanced for me.

So many issues, so many mysteries, so many variables to consider. Anybody else

oh man, I am reading this and my heart is aching for you. I go through the same thinking in my head..did I just make the boots too soft...and with ski equipment, its expensive!! Not like taking a pair of pants to a tailor. I don't like the sounds of calves hurting like hell. Did they just remove bolt to soften the boots? Maybe pop that back in if that's the case.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Not necessarily, and you have to understand I am very picky, I don't think that most people are even aware of this happening but I went thru this same issue years ago when I bought my first skis. 1st time I demo'ed I was set at +1.5 b/c the tech made a mistake when he set me up. I demoed again to make sure it was "the ski" and realized it wasn't when I was at the factory line.

Don't sell those nice skis! IF its not the tune, then just switch out the binding to a squire demo. and find what works best for you.

Would shims be an option? To shim the Wardens to be the same delta as the Squire Demos? I actually ordered a set of squire demos last night to put onto a set of my beater skis for a friend's kid, but if shimming the current binding isn't an option, I could use the demo squires.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

oh man, I am reading this and my heart is aching for you. I go through the same thinking in my head..did I just make the boots too soft...and with ski equipment, its expensive!! Not like taking a pair of pants to a tailor. I don't like the sounds of calves hurting like hell. Did they just remove bolt to soften the boots? Maybe pop that back in if that's the case.

No, I had the back cut to soften them. I thought it would make my calves hurt less, not more. BUT it could have also just been the volume of skiing I have done over the past two weeks. I went out the next day and tightened my cuffs up a bit more, and the calf pain was better. I think I was used to leaving my cuffs and boosters really loose to create "softness" before I had them softened, and then didn't adjust them accordingly.

I'm keeping an eye out for spring sales in the same boot, just in case I messed up getting it softened. OR so I can have a set of hard shells and soft shells for different temps/conditions.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Well, hopefully when you get out on the skis again, this time maybe it is just the tune! Definitely worth testing before shimming or swapping bindings.
My current BSL is 282--so not as short as many women have (but of course not as long as an average male BSL which everything is designed around) and I still have this stupid delta issue. I'm sure it depends on lots of factors other than BSL too--how much forward lean the boots have and personal anatomy too. Super annoying though.
I asked one shop about shimming the bindings and they seemed reluctant to want to do it . . . .but I've read enough posts on skiing forums about people shimming their bindings so I don't think it's an unusual request. You just have to know exactly how many mm you need to change. Seems it would be worth pursuing.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Well, hopefully when you get out on the skis again, this time maybe it is just the tune! Definitely worth testing before shimming or swapping bindings.
My current BSL is 282--so not as short as many women have (but of course not as long as an average male BSL which everything is designed around) and I still have this stupid delta issue. I'm sure it depends on lots of factors other than BSL too--how much forward lean the boots have and personal anatomy too. Super annoying though.
I asked one shop about shimming the bindings and they seemed reluctant to want to do it . . . .but I've read enough posts on skiing forums about people shimming their bindings so I don't think it's an unusual request. You just have to know exactly how many mm you need to change. Seems it would be worth pursuing.

I experienced the same issue in the past when I asked to get the toe piece of my Attack 12's shimmed. Most don't want to do it, and I had one tech who adjusted those bindings for the new boot ask if I wanted it removed, and seemed very adamant that it shouldn't be there. I also wouldn't think it is unusual, but it seems like a lot of shops are hesitant.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I experienced the same issue in the past when I asked to get the toe piece of my Attack 12's shimmed. Most don't want to do it, and I had one tech who adjusted those bindings for the new boot ask if I wanted it removed, and seemed very adamant that it shouldn't be there. I also wouldn't think it is unusual, but it seems like a lot of shops are hesitant.

Interesting that you had the same experience with requesting shimming. Now we need a list of shops nationwide where people have had luck with binding shim requests!

 

[MissySki]

I think you'll often have better luck if you go to a shop that works with a lot of racers. I can say for anyone in VT that Totem Pole in Ludlow will do it if you discuss your issues with them.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

I think you'll often have better luck if you go to a shop that works with a lot of racers. I can say for anyone in VT that Totem Pole in Ludlow will do it if you discuss your issues with them.

That is good info, thank you! I am often in Vermont, van camping at Killington or Stratton.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Interesting that you had the same experience with requesting shimming. Now we need a list of shops nationwide where people have had luck with binding shim requests!

Start a "little black book" of pro-shimming techs who will hook us up!

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I think you'll often have better luck if you go to a shop that works with a lot of racers.

That's what I was wondering---if seeking out a shop that deals with racers would be a good bet, since they are picky about their set ups.
Seems so ridiculous to have to go through so much effort for recreational skiing, but there it is!

 

[elemmac]

Interesting that you had the same experience with requesting shimming.

I had a similar experience when I was trying to troubleshoot a new pair of skis. I was given the reason that most people modify their boots, not their bindings. Which of course, didn't help me at the time because I had 3 other pairs of skis that I was very happy with, and wasn't about to go down the path of modifying my boots.

 

[contesstant]

Would shims be an option? To shim the Wardens to be the same delta as the Squire Demos? I actually ordered a set of squire demos last night to put onto a set of my beater skis for a friend's kid, but if shimming the current binding isn't an option, I could use the demo squires.

Yes, you can have a shop shim the Warden toe pieces on the bindings.

What's funny is now that I've adapted to skiing Warden bindings, when I get on Squires or anything flatter, I do NOT like them.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

I had a similar experience when I was trying to troubleshoot a new pair of skis. I was given the reason that most people modify their boots, not their bindings. Which of course, didn't help me at the time because I had 3 other pairs of skis that I was very happy with, and wasn't about to go down the path of modifying my boots.

I thought about this! If delta is such an issue for me, should I just get my boots gas pedaled? But then I got in my head about it - @contesstant just had to get whole new boots because the gas pedal was actually a crutch, so maybe it's my technique or form?

I wish my work schedule and location were conducive to taking a crap ton of lessons. That would probably be the best way to figure out the correct path forward. As it is, it's hard to even schedule lunch for myself, and stick to that schedule.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Yes, you can have a shop shim the Warden toe pieces on the bindings.

What's funny is now that I've adapted to skiing Warden bindings, when I get on Squires or anything flatter, I do NOT like them.

So. Many. Variables.

And so much adaptation can be done too.

My brain is ready to flat line trying to figure out my course of action.

 

[contesstant]

So. Many. Variables.

And so much adaptation can be done too.

My brain is ready to flat line trying to figure out my course of action.

One step at a time See if the tune helps first.