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Mount Point Issues?

badger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
One step at a time :becky: See if the tune helps first.
EXACTLY. I know this has got to be incredibly frustrating ! The tune is the easiest to fix and ascertain.

I have Warden 11 on my Nelas and love them. They actually surprised me by being awesome all around. Except that they are on the ugly side. But that's not even worthy of discussion. :rolleyes:
 

sorcamc

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
No, I had the back cut to soften them. I thought it would make my calves hurt less, not more. BUT it could have also just been the volume of skiing I have done over the past two weeks. I went out the next day and tightened my cuffs up a bit more, and the calf pain was better. I think I was used to leaving my cuffs and boosters really loose to create "softness" before I had them softened, and then didn't adjust them accordingly.

I'm keeping an eye out for spring sales in the same boot, just in case I messed up getting it softened. OR so I can have a set of hard shells and soft shells for different temps/conditions.
that's a great idea actually. what boot are you in?
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
EXACTLY. I know this has got to be incredibly frustrating ! The tune is the easiest to fix and ascertain.

I have Warden 11 on my Nelas and love them. They actually surprised me by being awesome all around. Except that they are on the ugly side. But that's not even worthy of discussion. :rolleyes:
Oof, right? That top sheet...it's kinda ironic that top of the line skis have a top sheet that looks like rentals lol
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
that's a great idea actually. what boot are you in?
I'm in Lange ZJ boots. It's a race boot with a 120 flex. It was a last ditch effort to try to get a good fit on my super narrow, hypermobile feet and ankles. I felt like it was a tad stiff for me last year (but doable and kept me on my A-game with my form), but then I lost 10-15lbs and this year it felt REALLY stiff.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm in Lange ZJ boots. It's a race boot with a 120 flex. It was a last ditch effort to try to get a good fit on my super narrow, hypermobile feet and ankles. I felt like it was a tad stiff for me last year (but doable and kept me on my A-game with my form), but then I lost 10-15lbs and this year it felt REALLY stiff.
For reference, I'm 5'1" and 115lbs, used to be advanced but lately feeling more like an intermediate.
 

sorcamc

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I got a pair of Salomon SMax low volume 120 this year..similar to you, have very narrow feel and hyper mobile joints. I have been able to flex them very well, That said, I'm several inches taller, so maybe longer levers help. I hope everything CLICKS again soon for you
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Update: I went to Roundtop this morning to test out the new tune. NOT great conditions to do so, but hey, work with what you got.

96 Nela with Warden 11’s: The tune definitely helped a bit with the “too long” feeling. It was firm as heck this morning, but I did feel a bit more in control. However, I’m still feeling like my fore-aft balance is off. I could get forward and pull my feet back better with the softened boot though. Still feeling like I’m standing on the tails a bit


Santa Ana with Marker Squire: I also got these tuned with the Nelas. They needed it after Big Sky rocks beat them up. I’m still a mess on these, feel like the tips are squirreling out on me a bit. Wished My boots were stiffer. Even with the softened boot, I still feel like I’m not balanced and centered. For some reason, I find myself on the balls of my feet on these? I have to actively focus on NOT going up onto the balls.
***Tried adding 6 strips of duct tape to the front AFD for a few runs. Did not help, made it harder to pressure the front. Not sure what to make of this, since i

Sheeva 10 with Warden Demos: First of all, these are slush queens lol. I took them out last, when it got slushy, and it was soooo surfy. With this set up, I felt the most centered and balanced on the ski, like I could pressure the fronts and make edge to edge transitions well. My boots felt TOO soft in these. But, I was able to get forward well. I took them down upper gunbarrel a few times for the heck of it and had a lot of fun. Not quite as confident as I was with the squire demo set up that I tried in Big Sky, but very close. Could very well be conditions.


I have no idea what to think. I’m going to go to Surefoot again in a week or so and see if my boot fitter has any ideas. I’m stumped. Perhaps the stack height is what was making the demos feel good?
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
Sheeva 10 with Warden Demos: First of all, these are slush queens lol. I took them out last, when it got slushy, and it was soooo surfy. With this set up, I felt the most centered and balanced on the ski, like I could pressure the fronts and make edge to edge transitions well. My boots felt TOO soft in these. But, I was able to get forward well. I took them down upper gunbarrel a few times for the heck of it and had a lot of fun. Not quite as confident as I was with the squire demo set up that I tried in Big Sky, but very close. Could very well be conditions.
Now that you've (most likely) ruled out tune as the culprit of your troubles.

My suggestion would be to measure the delta on this set-up, as you know you're comfortable on it. Use a caliper measurement tool (if you don't have one, you can pick up a cheap one at Home Depot or Amazon for like $5-10). Get "real-world" data for what you feel comfortable on. Then measure your others...compare and see how close they are.

Then experiment a bit, stand in your boots in your house...on a flat surface. Do you feel balanced? Can you squat down to have your thighs parallel to the floor (like if you were in a racer's "tuck" position)? Or do you feel like you're falling backwards? Can you get your femurs level? Play with different stances, what's the most comfortable and balanced?
- Tuck a magazine under your heels (this acts like a positive delta on your bindings, which also changes your forward lean)
- Magazine under your toes (this acts like a negative delta on your bindings, or a "gas pedal")
- Tuck a magazine behind your calf between shell and the liner (only tuck it in a couple inches, pushing your knees forward)...this adjusts your forward lean only, like a spoiler in your boots...no delta change.

Based on what you measured on your Sheeva's, does your experiment in your ski boots line up to what position your Warden demos are achieving?

Get to a point that you feel balanced off of your skis. Then try putting on your skis. See if things line up.

Here's a helpful resource for explaining a bit more about what I'm trying to explain here: https://skierlab.com/are-your-ski-boots-helping-you-be-a-bad-ass-or-just-bad/
 
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SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Now that you've (most likely) ruled out tune as the culprit of your troubles.

My suggestion would be to measure the delta on this set-up, as you know you're comfortable on it. Use a caliper measurement tool (if you don't have one, you can pick up a cheap one at Home Depot or Amazon for like $5-10). Get "real-world" data for what you feel comfortable on. Then measure your others...compare and see how close they are.

Then experiment a bit, stand in your boots in your house...on a flat surface. Do you feel balanced? Can you squat down to have your thighs parallel to the floor (like if you were in a racer's "tuck" position)? Or do you feel like you're falling backwards? Can you get your femurs level? Play with different stances, what's the most comfortable and balanced?
- Tuck a magazine under your heels (this acts like a positive delta on your bindings, which also changes your forward lean)
- Magazine under your toes (this acts like a negative delta on your bindings, or a "gas pedal")
- Tuck a magazine behind your calf between shell and the liner (only tuck it in a couple inches, pushing your knees forward)...this adjusts your forward lean only, like a spoiler in your boots...no delta change.

Based on what you measured on your Sheeva's, does your experiment in your ski boots line up to what position your Warden demos are achieving?

Get to a point that you feel balanced off of your skis. Then try putting on your skis. See if things line up.

Here's a helpful resource for explaining a bit more about what I'm trying to explain here: https://skierlab.com/are-your-ski-boots-helping-you-be-a-bad-ass-or-just-bad/
Thank you so much!!!

Ordered calipers, they will be here tomorrow. I'll post once I take measurements.

I did try the "standing in boots" experiment, and I'm able to drop it like it's hot in my boots. I can pretty much do the "asian squat" (I'm sorry if that isn't the correct way to say that - it's the only term I've ever heard to describe it - if there is a better term, please let me know) where you can bring your butt to the ground. But I can do that very easily out of boots too, so I'm not sure if this is a hyper mobility thing or actually too much forward lean.

If it is too much forward lean, I'm not sure what the remedy is. The ZJ is the only boot that I've been in where I don't have slop, which is probably due to the 92mm last.
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
I did try the "standing in boots" experiment, and I'm able to drop it like it's hot in my boots. I can pretty much do the "asian squat" (I'm sorry if that isn't the correct way to say that - it's the only term I've ever heard to describe it - if there is a better term, please let me know) where you can bring your butt to the ground. But I can do that very easily out of boots too, so I'm not sure if this is a hyper mobility thing or actually too much forward lean.
So according to the person that wrote the website I posted earlier, it’s a sign of too much forward lean. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced too much forward lean in a boot (I have encountered not enough), so I don’t know what impact it has on skiing. Might be some info a good bootfitter can work with though.

Did your balance feel best in the set up you currently have? Or did an elevated toe or heel feel any more balanced?
 

NewEnglandSkier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I believe I've read in various threads on other ski forums that too much forward lean can make you drop your hips back to compensate so you end up back seat. Not sure how that would relate to having the tips of the skis feeling out of control but could maybe explain the "skiing the tails" feeling. Probably something to check in with your boot fitter about.

Just for kicks, since I have similar complaints about skis sometimes not feeling the same once I buy them, I did some of the "experiments" above as well. Found that I can go fairly far down and not topple, but it's not "comfortable". The position of getting femurs parallel to the floor felt fine. Standing with toes on a magazine I could stand a bit taller and extend a tiny bit more comfortably. Standing with heels on a magazine lessened my ability to extend my legs. It wasn't comfortable.
My bindings had a range of deltas from -1, +2, +3 and +5. I feel the most comfortable on the skis in that order. For my situation, it "seems" like I might benefit from gas pedaling my current boots--but they are from I think 2014 so nearing end of life---so probably not worth putting too much effort into them---but something to keep in mind depending on the geometry whatever boots I get next. I think for me, the answer is to wait until I get new boots and then deal with the binding issue on my Sheevas, as new boots could change the whole equation.
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Now that you've (most likely) ruled out tune as the culprit of your troubles.

My suggestion would be to measure the delta on this set-up, as you know you're comfortable on it. Use a caliper measurement tool (if you don't have one, you can pick up a cheap one at Home Depot or Amazon for like $5-10). Get "real-world" data for what you feel comfortable on. Then measure your others...compare and see how close they are.

Then experiment a bit, stand in your boots in your house...on a flat surface. Do you feel balanced? Can you squat down to have your thighs parallel to the floor (like if you were in a racer's "tuck" position)? Or do you feel like you're falling backwards? Can you get your femurs level? Play with different stances, what's the most comfortable and balanced?
- Tuck a magazine under your heels (this acts like a positive delta on your bindings, which also changes your forward lean)
- Magazine under your toes (this acts like a negative delta on your bindings, or a "gas pedal")
- Tuck a magazine behind your calf between shell and the liner (only tuck it in a couple inches, pushing your knees forward)...this adjusts your forward lean only, like a spoiler in your boots...no delta change.

Based on what you measured on your Sheeva's, does your experiment in your ski boots line up to what position your Warden demos are achieving?

Get to a point that you feel balanced off of your skis. Then try putting on your skis. See if things line up.

Here's a helpful resource for explaining a bit more about what I'm trying to explain here: https://skierlab.com/are-your-ski-boots-helping-you-be-a-bad-ass-or-just-bad/
Good stuff. When I read her post, the Warden's have the most delta, the Squires the least, and the demos are in between. So my simple-minded side says that "something in between" is the golden ticket. That being said, I am also finding that a ski with a more forward mount feels different than a ski with a more traditional mount with the same binding.

@SquidWeaselYay, ski the Nelas with the toes temporarily lifted would be my advice. You did this with the binding that is already negative delta (the Squire.) My other advice (and this is what my husband insisted I do with my new boots and Nelas) is ski them some more in, and in conditions they are made for. Oh, and a drill I learned with the PSIA national team member I took a lesson from at Big Sky that really, really helped me stand tall and get forward was to hold my poles horizontally above my head and slightly in front, then do some hockey stops, then feather those hockey stops into turns. Progress this drill until you are making normal turns. Do a lot of hockey stops before moving into turns.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Good stuff. When I read her post, the Warden's have the most delta, the Squires the least, and the demos are in between. So my simple-minded side says that "something in between" is the golden ticket. That being said, I am also finding that a ski with a more forward mount feels different than a ski with a more traditional mount with the same binding.

@SquidWeaselYay, ski the Nelas with the toes temporarily lifted would be my advice. You did this with the binding that is already negative delta (the Squire.) My other advice (and this is what my husband insisted I do with my new boots and Nelas) is ski them some more in, and in conditions they are made for. Oh, and a drill I learned with the PSIA national team member I took a lesson from at Big Sky that really, really helped me stand tall and get forward was to hold my poles horizontally above my head and slightly in front, then do some hockey stops, then feather those hockey stops into turns. Progress this drill until you are making normal turns. Do a lot of hockey stops before moving into turns.
Ooooh that drill sounds awesome! I'll try that! Thank you!

I'm so confused - from what I read on the binding charts, the demo bindings are negative, but the regular squires are positive, just slightly less than the wardens.

Squire 11 Demos: Toe height - 29.5mm, heel height - 28mm. (-1.5)
Squire 11: Toe height - 19mm, heel height - 24mm. (+5)
Warden 11: Toe height - 21mm, heel height - 26.5mm (+5.5)
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ooooh that drill sounds awesome! I'll try that! Thank you!

I'm so confused - from what I read on the binding charts, the demo bindings are negative, but the regular squires are positive, just slightly less than the wardens.

Squire 11 Demos: Toe height - 29.5mm, heel height - 28mm. (-1.5)
Squire 11: Toe height - 19mm, heel height - 24mm. (+5)
Warden 11: Toe height - 21mm, heel height - 26.5mm (+5.5)
I don’t know why I thought that you had Warden demos.
I know I’ve measure the Squire non-demo and they are maybe 2mm higher in the heel. If that. But even with a caliper I could be wrong. I have pulled them off my skis. I need to get rid of them!
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don’t know why I thought that you had Warden demos.
I know I’ve measure the Squire non-demo and they are maybe 2mm higher in the heel. If that. But even with a caliper I could be wrong. I have pulled them off my skis. I need to get rid of them!
I'm all over the place with bindings - I have Warden Demos on my Sheevas. BUT I demoed the Nelas with Squire Demos.
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I'm all over the place with bindings - I have Warden Demos on my Sheevas. BUT I demoed the Nelas with Squire Demos.
And the Warden demos have I believe 2mm delta which splits the difference and might be why they felt good. I’d not hesitate to have you put a 2mm shim on the toe of the bindings on the Nelas. Keep the original screws and switch back if necessary.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And the Warden demos have I believe 2mm delta which splits the difference and might be why they felt good. I’d not hesitate to have you put a 2mm shim on the toe of the bindings on the Nelas. Keep the original screws and switch back if necessary.
What do you use to shim bindings? I've found shims for AT bindings online, but there doesn't seem to be anything for regular bindings.
 

LucieCZ

Certified Ski Diva
I'm not familiar with Stockli Nela 96 skis, but I just mounted my new 179cm Santa Ana 104 Frees 2cm forward and they ski perfect. I wouldn't mount a ski more than 1-3cm forward, as I had a friend who went more and kept going "over the handlebars". My rule of thumb is to mount forward if I want to be more turny, and 1cm for smaller to 3cm for bigger or burlier skis. The exception is my bumps skis which are skinny but mounted 2cm forward because ... zipper lines. For a powder ski, I also wouldn't mount forward because you don't need to be super turny, unless you're skiing in trees and bumps. It's really about experimenting. You can remount a ski twice before you start to run the risk of snapping it (depending on how hard you ski it). Also, for new skis, check to make sure it's properly detuned. Sometimes skis come out of the factory so sharp that it's hard to steer them. Hope that's helpful!
 

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