DPS Phantom base treatment, how to avoid waxing recreational skis - Notes 2020

[Lmk92]

So I have had Phantom on my Sheeva 9s for 4 seasons now, and have skied the ski as my mostly daily driver for 5 seasons. Before recently it seemed great. However, this season I noticed that my expected glide wasn’t there and my bases were looking especially bad. My ski tuner, who admittedly is not a fan of Phantom, told me that my bases have base burn and are also deteriorating near the edges where it takes all of the pressure when we ski. His hypothesis is that this wear is being seen due to my not waxing because while Phantom can keep your glide going it doesn’t provide any protection to your bases the way regular waxing does. I don’t know what to think, other than yes this season I had finally noticed an issue with glide too. I have to trust a professional’s assessment of base deterioration since I don’t really know how to make that assessment myself.

I know Phantom is supposed to penetrate the entire base depth, but I wonder if that is not completely true and whether I’ve had enough base grinds now that we got through the Phantom. Given my loss of glide without wax now. I have a lot of days on these skis, and I ski in the East so it is usually rough snow. I had my Phantom professionally applied. Will I continue to use Phantom on skis in the future? I’m not sure.. I might but also wax for the protective qualities. I figure then I can perhaps still go longer between waxing, but not just give it up altogether. I dunno yet.

Wanted to add my experience since it’s a somewhat new development this season versus my previous reviews of Phantom.

You also ski a lot more than the average skier, don't you? I wonder if that has played into it.

 

[MissySki]

You also ski a lot more than the average skier, don't you? I wonder if that has played into it.

I average 50 days per season, but not all are on these skis. Majority are though. I’m not sure if that is more than average or not, or if that should be considered a factor for a treatment that supposedly penetrates the entire base which I would extrapolate to mean it should be effective for the life of the skis.

I do assume that the East coast versus West coast usage could factor in given our rough snow. There is a thread on SkiTalk where this is discussed and someone who skis just Western snow has a lot of days on the skis and has not had the same issue I’m seeing so far. However, to my knowledge I don’t believe this is any kind of exclusion mentioned by Phantom for East Coasters either, I am curious if they’ve tested the product for the life of a ski on our snow.

 

[skibum4ever]

Does having Phantom mean that spring snow will not be grabby?

 

[marzNC]

I know Phantom is supposed to penetrate the entire base depth, but I wonder if that is not completely true and whether I’ve had enough base grinds now that we got through the Phantom.

How many base grinds have you done?

There was a story of someone who essentially ground the skis so often there was no base left to hold Phantom or wax.

I got a sample piece of base material during a tour of DPS. It's really not very thick. Not sure how many base grinds would mean there is nothing left.

Phantom Glide causes a chemical change in the base material. That's why it's "in" the ski bases and not "on" the bases as is the case with traditional wax. The same process has been used to make cement hydrophobic for quite a while.

 

[marzNC]

Does having Phantom mean that spring snow will not be grabby?

Here's my experience with Phantom and spring snow. The short answer is that skis with Phantom Glide are more fun in spring conditions. Will be slower going over "grabby" snow but don't have the feeling that the skis are going to come to a sudden stop.

Test #1 - May 2018
I had BPs with traditional warm weather wax and AJs with Phantom. Skied at Mt. Hood Meadows and Mammoth with both on the same day. Much happier with the AJs, even though they were on the narrow side for spring snow.

Test #2 - April 2019
Had the BPs treated with Phantom and Stormrider 85s with traditional warm weather wax. Even though the BPs were pretty old and had lost camber, I skied them a lot more on warm days when temps were in the 50s at the base of Alta.

Test #3 - April 2022
Had Stormrider 85s with Phantom. During the Alta Demo Day it was clear that my own skis had better glide than demo skis. Even the skis I took out first thing in the morning that had clearly been freshly waxed.

The reason I went ahead and treated my powder skis with Phantom was that I used them at Alta in April when there is a snowstorm. It's nice to have better glide as it warms up. So I can have fun in the powder I the trees off Wildcat but still do fine elsewhere where there is sun exposure.

I've often stayed out much later in the afternoon on warm days than other people staying at Alta Lodge. With traditional wax, they are often don't bother to ski after lunch. They don't feel like waxing skis every day or adding a paste wax a few times a day.

 

[MissySki]

How many base grinds have you done?

There was a story of someone who essentially ground the skis so often there was no base left to hold Phantom or wax.

I got a sample piece of base material during a tour of DPS. It's really not very thick. Not sure how many base grinds would mean there is nothing left.

Phantom Glide causes a chemical change in the base material. That's why it's "in" the ski bases and not "on" the bases as is the case with traditional wax. The same process has been used to make cement hydrophobic for quite a while.

Not many overall. I only get the base ground when told I need it. Once per season or less. The guy who tunes my skis has been Mike/SkiMD in MA, he’s very highly regarded in the industry. It’s not just a stick it through machine sort of shop.

 

[marzNC]

Not many overall. I only get the base ground when told I need it. Once per season or less.

Hmm . . . not sure what's going on.

I used the AJs for 100+ days on manmade snow with Phantom 1.0 done DIY and didn't notice any issues. Never did a base grind since I used those skis 95% on groomed trails because of where I took them.

 

[xxs_skier]

I asked my shop about this and for our snow (PNW, but heavy wet snow and we also get can icy conditions) she still recommended occasional waxing. She said that where the product was made the snow is more powdery so maybe that's why they marketed as never having to wax again.

 

[marzNC]

I asked my shop about this and for our snow (PNW, but heavy wet snow and we also get can icy conditions) she still recommended occasional waxing. She said that where the product was made the snow is more powdery so maybe that's why they marketed as never having to wax again.

Not really. Was she trying to sell you stuff for waxing at home? Or the value of bringing skis into the shop for regular waxing?

Did you look at the more recent thread? Post #5 is about a shop in Whistler that likes Phantom Glide.

Phantom Glide™ base treatment, how to avoid waxing recreational skis - Notes 2022

For recreational skiing, Phantom Glide™ is an alternative to waxing skis. I was an early adopter after DPS Skis made Phantom available during the 2018-19 season and am very happy with the performance on snow. I had been waxing my skis at home for a few years before Phantom was invented, but it’s...

www.theskidiva.com

 

[TNtoTaos]

FWIW, I've been happy with the Phantom on my Sheeva 9's, although this is the first season I'm using it, so I can't speak to the longevity of the treatment. Throughout all the differing conditions I’ve used them in, my skis have performed well. I haven’t gotten that “I need a wax” feeling at all, so far. Am planning to do my powder skis next time there’s a sale, hopefully before I go to Alta this April.

 

[xxs_skier]

Not really. Was she trying to sell you stuff for waxing at home? Or the value of bringing skis into the shop for regular waxing?

She didn't sell me on anything. They do both wax and Phantom. When I went to get bindings on my new skis I asked if they needed a wax or tune and she said that the factory wax should be good for a few days and a tune wasn't necessary on new skis.

 

[BlueSkies]

I've been using Phantomed skis since 2019 and have had no problems with my current skis (3 pair, including a pair which are now rock skis). I plan to treat any future skis. I do still notice some grabiness in late spring conditions but that is the one time of the year I can keep up with or pass my DH as he does not have Phantom and doesn't wax that often

 

[Ski Sine Fine]

This is my third full season with Phantom. The AJs are strictly used in the Mid-Atlantic. The BP88s are for western trips and sometimes in the Mid-Atlantic. I am very happy with their glide. I did, however, asked to have them waxed anyway during my beginning-of-season tune last October. Purely for cosmetic reasons. I like the looks of a freshly waxed base and the AJs were looking dry. I also like to patronize my favorite shop and it isn’t that much money. I will likely continue to have them waxed once a year at the beginning of season.

 

[Lmk92]

Does having Phantom mean that spring snow will not be grabby?

I did have my Phantomed skis waxed once for spring conditions. They were a tad grabby, as BlueSkies said, but not awful.

 

[marzNC]

She didn't sell me on anything. They do both wax and Phantom. When I went to get bindings on my new skis I asked if they needed a wax or tune and she said that the factory wax should be good for a few days and a tune wasn't necessary on new skis.

My experience with Phantom Glide is that a recreational skier is unlikely to need to wax for as long as they own the skis. Otherwise most people feel that wax is needed after a few days on hard snow. That means either buying stuff to wax at home, or paying someone for a "hot wax."

Note that putting on a layer of "summer wax" can be helpful depending on how skis are stored during the off-season. Can always wax over bases treated with Phantom.

I learned to wax skis after I started buying skis about 15 years ago. Some people like to do the process themselves. For me, waxing was a chore that I'm happier not having to do. To get a basic hot wax done at a shop costs US$20-25. Given that the skis I use at my home mountain in the east should be waxed every 2-3 days, it didn't take long for the investment in Phantom paid off. After becoming an advanced skier, I tend to keep skis for quite a while because I demo before I buy and I don't really like shopping and/or reselling used skis. I have other things I'd rather do with my time than waxing. YMMV

If someone only plans to keep a pair of skis for a season or two, then the added cost of Phantom may not be worth it.

 

[xxs_skier]

My experience with Phantom Glide is that a recreational skier is unlikely to need to wax for as long as they own the skis. Otherwise most people feel that wax is needed after a few days on hard snow. That means either buying stuff to wax at home, or paying someone for a "hot wax."

Note that putting on a layer of "summer wax" can be helpful depending on how skis are stored during the off-season. Can always wax over bases treated with Phantom.

I learned to wax skis after I started buying skis about 15 years ago. Some people like to do the process themselves. For me, waxing was a chore that I'm happier not having to do. To get a basic hot wax done at a shop costs US$20-25. Given that the skis I use at my home mountain in the east should be waxed every 2-3 days, it didn't take long for the investment in Phantom paid off. After becoming an advanced skier, I tend to keep skis for quite a while because I demo before I buy and I don't really like shopping and/or reselling used skis. I have other things I'd rather do with my time than waxing. YMMV

If someone only plans to keep a pair of skis for a season or two, then the added cost of Phantom may not be worth it.

I think she said that for our area we should be waxing about every 5 days. Confession: I haven't waxed the skis that I bought at the start of the season...The bases don't look chalky and they don't seem slow. It's technically been 12 ski days, but for the most part I'm only skiing a few hours a day on them.

 

[marzNC]

I think she said that for our area we should be waxing about every 5 days. Confession: I haven't waxed the skis that I bought at the start of the season...The bases don't look chalky and they don't seem slow. It's technically been 12 ski days, but for the most part I'm only skiing a few hours a day on them.

Yep, that sounds like the recommendation that would come from a ski shop tech. You are correct that how you ski and what snow conditions are like is going to make a difference in how often waxing is required for good glide and to maintain the base when using traditional wax for recreational skis.

As you've discovered when shopping for skis, there are no absolutes about ski gear. Except perhaps the fact that gear you own will be better than rental gear. How people maintain their skis varies by multiple factors including personality, skiing ability, and region.

 

[Lmk92]

My experience with Phantom Glide is that a recreational skier is unlikely to need to wax for as long as they own the skis. Otherwise most people feel that wax is needed after a few days on hard snow. That means either buying stuff to wax at home, or paying someone for a "hot wax."

Note that putting on a layer of "summer wax" can be helpful depending on how skis are stored during the off-season. Can always wax over bases treated with Phantom.

I learned to wax skis after I started buying skis about 15 years ago. Some people like to do the process themselves. For me, waxing was a chore that I'm happier not having to do. To get a basic hot wax done at a shop costs US$20-25. Given that the skis I use at my home mountain in the east should be waxed every 2-3 days, it didn't take long for the investment in Phantom paid off. After becoming an advanced skier, I tend to keep skis for quite a while because I demo before I buy and I don't really like shopping and/or reselling used skis. I have other things I'd rather do with my time than waxing. YMMV

If someone only plans to keep a pair of skis for a season or two, then the added cost of Phantom may not be worth it.

This is why I applied phantom on my skis, but just bought the materials for my kids. They're still unsure of how many days per year they'll ski, and whether or not they'll be getting new ones soon. In fact, my daughter has already said she'd like a whole new setup (which will include a one piece, haha) when she gets back from Africa, in about 3 years.

 

[TNtoTaos]

So it's interesting to note that of all the people who have commented on their Phantom experience, only @MissySki has had an issue, so far, and it sounds like she has had the most base grinds. Could be a factor, I'd imagine.

Also, for those who wax on top of Phantom, my understanding is that wax wears off very quickly, within a day or two, or even less, so except in unusually grabby conditions, does waxing on top of Phantom even make sense? Since the polymer in Phantom binds to the base of the skis and penetrates all throughout, it essentially changes the chemical makeup of the bases, so I'm definitely no expert on waxing, but from what I've read, it sounds to me like waxing to maintain the condition of the bases is no longer relevant, since you're dealing with a different base material altogether...? Just wanting to know what's best for my skis.

 

[marzNC]

Also, for those who wax on top of Phantom, my understanding is that wax wears off very quickly, within a day or two, or even less, so except in unusually grabby conditions, does waxing on top of Phantom even make sense? Since the polymer in Phantom binds to the base of the skis and penetrates all throughout, it essentially changes the chemical makeup of the bases, so I'm definitely no expert on waxing, but from what I've read, it sounds to me like waxing to maintain the condition of the bases is no longer relevant, since you're dealing with a different base material altogether...? Just wanting to know what's best for my skis.

Correct, bases treated with Phantom are actually different from an untreated base because the material has a different chemical composition.

The reasons to wax over Phantom bases include:

* skiing in frigid weather, with temps under 15 degrees or so
* skiing in very warm weather for optimal glide
* racing

In all these cases, the wax will wear off quickly. As is the case without Phantom. Most recreational skiers don't wax their skis after every ski day, or every few hours during spring skiing.

The glide for Phantom is equivalent to a good wax job with universal wax, not wax designed for special situations. A universal wax is considered "all-temperature." If you look at online shops selling wax for skis, you'll see different colors of wax based on what temperature range they are designed for. Tognar is a website and e-store that has been around for a long time.