Vermont travel restrictions

[elemmac]

Informative article @WhyKnot . I’m kind of curious on how they came to this conclusion:

“She said indoor sports such as basketball and hockey will be permitted. But others, including wrestling and indoor track, will not be allowed because of the risk of transmitting the coronavirus.“

How does basketball pose less of a risk than indoor track? Seems odd to me.

 

[SallyCat]

How does basketball pose less of a risk than indoor track? Seems odd to me.

Seriously! I love basketball and have 24/7 free access to a gym with a full court and even I will only shoot jumpshots alone when the place is empty.

I'm still not sure that Vermont is deliberately inflating anyone's numbers, but it does seem as though they've chosen a model that's clumsy and leads to some counter-productive situations. I don't know what the solution is; I feel as though it's up to everyone to abide by their conscience and reason and make responsible choices. Sure, people lie about quarantining, but maybe having the regulations in place will lead people to expect a certain level of scrutiny, which in turn may encourage safer behavior.

 

[Christy]

This may get updated though considering MA will go to requiring masks at all times in public outside even when distance is able to be maintained this Friday.

Yikes, really? As someone that has not been able to master the glasses-fogging when masked* AND doesn't come within 20' of anyone when dog walking (typically I just cross the street altogether), I would be genuinely put out over this even though I have been supportive of all other mask rules.

*It's not always terrible but is always there a little, and I have tried all the tricks and have many different masks at this point; also it's tough when you wear progressive lenses because if your glasses rest on the mask it messes up the alignment and you can't see. Also it's genuinely unworkable in the rain. Masks + rain + glasses= no vision at all

 

[MissySki]

Yikes, really? As someone that has not been able to master the glasses-fogging when masked* AND doesn't come within 20' of anyone when dog walking (typically I just cross the street altogether), I would be genuinely put out over this even though I have been supportive of all other mask rules.

*It's not always terrible but is always there a little, and I have tried all the tricks and have many different masks at this point; also it's tough when you wear progressive lenses because if your glasses rest on the mask it messes up the alignment and you can't see. Also it's genuinely unworkable in the rain. Masks + rain + glasses= no vision at all

Yes, and I'm seeing that RI and ME have followed suit now. I think it's ridiculous even though I'm a mask wearer as well. Luckily I don't leave my own property much (until it's to ski), and can still be in my own yard unmasked.. for now anyway. haha

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Yes, and I'm seeing that RI and ME have followed suit now. I think it's ridiculous even though I'm a mask wearer as well. Luckily I don't leave my own property much (until it's to ski), and can still be in my own yard unmasked.. for now anyway. haha

I'm a mask wearer too (in MA) and I too think it's ridiculous. Generally I am a person who follows the rules, but I doubt I'll be following that when I go on my walks and encounter nobody.

 

[Christy]

I'm a mask wearer too (in MA) and I too think it's ridiculous. Generally I am a person who follows the rules, but I doubt I'll be following that when I go on my walks and encounter nobody.

Ugh. I'm the same way, but already so many people are walking/biking/running around my neighborhood alone in masks. So I'd be the person looking like a total jerk and an anti-masker. I think Gov Inslee has done a great job but fingers crossed he doesn't implement this!

 

[MissySki]

Ugh. I'm the same way, but already so many people are walking/biking/running around my neighborhood alone in masks. So I'd be the person looking like a total jerk and an anti-masker. I think Gov Inslee has done a great job but fingers crossed he doesn't implement this!

I'm curious to see how it goes here. I think most reasonable people found it difficult to argue with the common sense of the original mandate. We have very high compliance. This one is tougher to make sense of so I fully expect to see more pushback or ignoring it when outside and very distanced. The social pressure is a piece of it too as you mention though.

 

[Tvan]

I'm training myself to think of masks as the new sunscreen.

When we were kids, not only didn't we use sunscreen, we used baby oil to try and get really dark tans. Then we learned about skin cancer and the importance of sunscreen. I hate sunscreen. It's greasy, my hands get slippery, I get it in my hair... but I really, really don't want to get skin cancer so I put on sunscreen.

I feel the same way about masks.

As for the fogging problem, I haven't tried this myself, but I've heard that this works: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/health/how-to-de-fog-glasses-wearing-mask-wellness-trnd/index.html

 

[WhyKnot]

I'm still not sure that Vermont is deliberately inflating anyone's numbers, but it does seem as though they've chosen a model that's clumsy and leads to some counter-productive situations. I don't know what the solution is; I feel as though it's up to everyone to abide by their conscience and reason and make responsible choices. Sure, people lie about quarantining, but maybe having the regulations in place will lead people to expect a certain level of scrutiny, which in turn may encourage safer behavior.

I appreciate what you are saying @SallyCat and your points of view.

Here's an article I may have posted on this thread or another. Discusses the 2.4X calculation - And as you may know even the CDC has different and varied ways they calculate numbers (info on their site), so it is a lot to dig into and I am no expert just learning here like we all are.

https://www.vnews.com/Thetford-legi...vel-restrictions-in-the-Upper-Valley-37020365

People are doing the best they can with a new situation, I do get that. The issue we talk about around where I live has to do with life on the VT/NH border and in a school district that is inter-state (Dresden is the first interstate school district and a little fact: it was the last piece of legislation Kennedy signed into law). And then those kids can't be interstate when the school bells rings. So for the kids in Norwich (VT). if things stay as they are it will, it will be arguable less safe for these kids and families to travel to a further away ski mountain in VT where there can be folks from the Burlington area where as you may know the numbers are way higher to interact with. Same with lots of local VT folks (adults) who would ski more locally and now may be less safe to have to travel further then just cross the river and go to the local Skiways.

And if you take someone that lives in Orford, NH - where there are zero cases reported, they are technically blocked as well from skiing in VT. One issue is that the county (Grafton) is huge, and even if cases are all the way over in Plymouth, NH, over 100 miles away, everyone gets valued as "red" according to VT where in NH the map is still green (there's 74 active cases in Grafton based on NH dashboard --- and that is a huge county of nearly 1800 Square miles - and as far as the Vermont map that county is Red).

Watching different numbers and math now! So I may not be as clear as possible and again I am just learning as I am going to.

Oh PS @SallyCat, I know you also asked about Dartmouth. I feel actually from what I see they are being transparent and all their info is on their dashboard and viewable by anyone. They take this very seriously. (Plus the town has a mandate for masks which is taken seriously as the town wants to protect itself too). The College also has apparently sent students home for misbehavior-- The student newspaper is doing a good job of reporting (also online). So overall, I think the College is doing a good job with how they are handling Covid, very frequent testing including a system set up with DHMC (local hospital) to test sewage out of the dorms, quarantining and isolation when required, and being open and transparent in their dashboard. They even outlawed beer pong. Seriously. ( I read about 2 students sent home for playing beer pong). Recently looked at dashboard and some staff tested positive (very few, there have been very few cases, you can see info on their site), which brings us back to doe: because these staff may live in NH or VT.

And I am curious how the College's Skiway will be handling students/staff who live just over the river in VT. (Yes, it is on VT residents to "be on honor system" but I can imagine the college taking it very seriously.) So more TBD! Thanks again for this thread !

 

[WhyKnot]

Informative article @WhyKnot . I’m kind of curious on how they came to this conclusion:

“She said indoor sports such as basketball and hockey will be permitted. But others, including wrestling and indoor track, will not be allowed because of the risk of transmitting the coronavirus.“

How does basketball pose less of a risk than indoor track? Seems odd to me.

I read that too @elemmac. It's an interesting question and is curious like you say! (I hope I was clear also about the NPR audio interview which was linked on the page in that article about skiing, but yes the whole article including the winter sports is newsworthy too).

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one since I've seen numerous reports (including from personal friend sources that I trust) of people having tires slashed, cars marked with messages of GO HOME (in less ideal language), and someone had their car window broken. This is not just VT but has happened in places in NH for sure and I've heard of verbal harassment for some in ME too. I doubt this just goes away as tourist season ramps up this winter with cases spiking in the background as well. Yet no one know if people are in compliance with rules or where they even live based on a license plate.

And this is why I have no interest to ski in NE this season even though I could quarantine at home and take test before traveling. The only NE state I will ski in will be NY since there are no travel restrictions for neighboring PA that I reside in.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

Ugh. I'm the same way, but already so many people are walking/biking/running around my neighborhood alone in masks. So I'd be the person looking like a total jerk and an anti-masker. I think Gov Inslee has done a great job but fingers crossed he doesn't implement this!

I agree that there is no reason for mandatory mask mandates for outdoors. The informal view that I gathered after reading is that only time you need a mask outdoors is if you are within 6-10 feet of some for more then a few minutes. It is my opinion only. DH and I go hiking every weekend and we wear doubles up thick cotton bandannas around over necks that we pull up over our faces whenever we see others approaching us on the trail. However people need to be aware that they need to mask up when are approaching others outdoors.

 

[santacruz skier]

I agree that there is no reason for mandatory mask mandates for outdoors. The informal view that I gathered after reading is that only time you need a mask outdoors is if you are within 6-10 feet of some for more then a few minutes. It is my opinion only. DH and I go hiking every weekend and we wear doubles up thick cotton bandannas around over necks that we pull up over our faces whenever we see others approaching us on the trail. However people need to be aware that they need to mask up when are approaching others outdoors.

BF and I do the same thing here outdoors. Thick cotton bandanas and pull up whenever others approaching. Also do the same thing bike riding. However, when a medical appointment or indoors, I wear a mask.

 

[Christy]

I agree that there is no reason for mandatory mask mandates for outdoors. The informal view that I gathered after reading is that only time you need a mask outdoors is if you are within 6-10 feet of some for more then a few minutes. It is my opinion only. DH and I go hiking every weekend and we wear doubles up thick cotton bandannas around over necks that we pull up over our faces whenever we see others approaching us on the trail. However people need to be aware that they need to mask up when are approaching others outdoors.

I totally agree. When I'm on a hiking trail I wear my buff filter. And actually if I'm walking on the main street of my neighborhood, doing errands, where you probably pass people on the sidewalk though not closely, it's just the convention now to wear one. but when I'm on the residential streets of my neighborhood it's just so easy to stay far away from people.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

I totally agree. When I'm on a hiking trail I wear my buff filter. And actually if I'm walking on the main street of my neighborhood, doing errands, where you probably pass people on the sidewalk though not closely, it's just the convention now to wear one. but when I'm on the residential streets of my neighborhood it's just so easy to stay far away from people.

Yes, I was going to say in the city with many people walking at the same time on the side walks masks are needed.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

I was reading about VT travel restrictions on a different ski forum. Someone from NJ has posted how they attempted to make a reservation at a VT inn for ski vacation and they got denied the reservation because they live in "a red area with high numbers of active cases ". Here what they posted:
*************************************************************
This is the email I got from the hotel:
"Thank you for your booking with XXXXX. We are following the Vt. travel restrictions. The county you live in is Middlesex County which is a red area with high numbers of active cases. The map we follow is updated every Tuesday afternoon. So as of now your December reservation, unless the numbers go down we won’t be able to take your reservation for this time. Thank you and I apologize for any inconvenience. Valerie, Front Desk Agent"

This email alerted me to the restrictions so I read up on the rules and called the hotel. I asked about the quarantine options and was told they want proof. I asked what's the proof that I quarantined? I was told (off the cuff I think), a receipt showing someone buying my groceries.

In any case, the owners of this hotel are being very cautious. I hope my county is not red for the December trip, or the subsequent three extended weekend trips I reserved in January, February and March.
**************************************************************************
The person who posted this was not really aware of the VT travel restrictions, so that part not so good and the poster admitted that. However the rest of this post and situation is.. Well, I have decided to not share my opinion or judgement, curious to see/hear what others think.

 

[MissySki]

@Olesya Chornoguz I have heard of an Inn doing this, not sure if it is the same. I can assure you that this isn’t the norm though. It’s really going way overboard, and grasping at straws for enforcement of a literally unenforceable mandate. This is the fault of the state for putting businesses in this situation.. His request makes no sense either and frankly shouldn’t make him feel safe imo. I could easily order groceries online and have them delivered to show my “proof” yet still go out or see people besides this. I could also deal with my current grocery situation at home and not have to go out at all for 2 weeks (I also have HelloFresh delivered weekly). I surely wouldn’t argue with the person, and would just go elsewhere. This is way overboard imo though. I will keep my more colorful view of it to myself as well lol.

 

[SallyCat]

Each state has the right to make its own policy regarding COVID. VT has so far benefitted from being small and rural, but it also has very high mask and distancing compliance among its population relative to much of the rest of the country. That is a situation that merits protecting.

I've said this before ad nauseam, but the state has to consider that it would take very little for Vermont's health care resources to become overwhelmed, and those resources merit protection. Vermont also has a population that is significantly older than the national average, so there are some unique vulnerabilities here.

A quick scan of some other ski forums and social media suggest that an awful lot of skiers plan to flout mask requirements and other policies. I see many skiers saying "the rules are going to make me lie," which is an interesting way to frame the behavior of people who simply don't want to follow the quarantine rules but want to come here and ski.

Are the regulations going to dissuade people from coming to Vermont to ski this winter? Yes, and that's a good thing.

No ski resort is expecting to have normal-season numbers of visitors this year. As it is, the limited number of visitors still have a chance to shorten everyone's ski season by behaving carelessly and allowing infection rates to rise.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to love Vermont's regulations, which are imperfect, but the relentless complaining I see around ski forums about them being unfair or unreasonable seems a bit much. Vermont has a right to make policies that the state deems to be in its interest. If you disagree, that's fine, and if you don't come to Vermont to ski this year, that's fine, too. But many of us are grateful to benefit from a state that is careful about protecting its citizens in the face of an infectious pandemic. I am particularly grateful because I work in pre-hospital care and see vulnerable patients in unpredictable situations as well as in their homes and in nursing homes. I do my best to be safe so that I can keep my patients safe, but living in a place with a fairly low COVID infection rate and good community behavior keeps everyone's aggregate risk down and again, that's worth protecting.

 

[MissySki]

Each state has the right to make its own policy regarding COVID. VT has so far benefitted from being small and rural, but it also has very high mask and distancing compliance among its population relative to much of the rest of the country. That is a situation that merits protecting.

I've said this before ad nauseam, but the state has to consider that it would take very little for Vermont's health care resources to become overwhelmed, and those resources merit protection. Vermont also has a population that is significantly older than the national average, so there are some unique vulnerabilities here.

A quick scan of some other ski forums and social media suggest that an awful lot of skiers plan to flout mask requirements and other policies. I see many skiers saying "the rules are going to make me lie," which is an interesting way to frame the behavior of people who simply don't want to follow the quarantine rules but want to come here and ski.

Are the regulations going to dissuade people from coming to Vermont to ski this winter? Yes, and that's a good thing.

No ski resort is expecting to have normal-season numbers of visitors this year. As it is, the limited number of visitors still have a chance to shorten everyone's ski season by behaving carelessly and allowing infection rates to rise.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to love Vermont's regulations, which are imperfect, but the relentless complaining I see around ski forums about them being unfair or unreasonable seems a bit much. Vermont has a right to make policies that the state deems to be in its interest. If you disagree, that's fine, and if you don't come to Vermont to ski this year, that's fine, too. But many of us are grateful to benefit from a state that is careful about protecting its citizens in the face of an infectious pandemic. I am particularly grateful because I work in pre-hospital care and see vulnerable patients in unpredictable situations as well as in their homes and in nursing homes. I do my best to be safe so that I can keep my patients safe, but living in a place with a fairly low COVID infection rate and good community behavior keeps everyone's aggregate risk down and again, that's worth protecting.

Is this is response to the most recent posts above? Because I believe the intent was that a certain Inn is going above and beyond the restrictions which don’t require “proof” of anything. And also the fact that the “proof” doesn’t actually make sense. My comment about the state putting business owners in that position is that they made regulations and then didn’t give business owners a way to enforce beyond making people sign a piece of paper. Which obviously some business owners don’t find adequate, yet they also have no real better way of doing it either.

 

[SallyCat]

Is this is response to the most recent posts above? Because I believe the intent was that a certain Inn is going above and beyond the restrictions which don’t require “proof” of anything.

Yes, but if the Inn wants to be more restrictive than is required by the state, it may do so. My local general store could now open for counter and table service if they want to, but they've decided to stick with take-out only, feeling that that decision suits their needs.