Vermont travel restrictions

[SallyCat]

I do wish people would stop using the word "xenophobia" in referring to interstate travel restrictions/concerns. In the words of Inygo Montoya..., well, you know.

Matt seems afflicted with some logical fallacy related to causation:

1. Vermont has been more restrictive regarding tourism and travel than many states.
2. Vermont has relatively low COVID infection rates, especially those related to out-of-state tourists*.
3. Therefore, Vermont didn't need those rules to be so strict to out-of-state tourists.

*(Although the orchard outbreak was related to out-of-state travel).

Ski areas may look at these regulations and decide whether or not or to what extent they are able to operate this season. Some may go bankrupt. Many other businesses have already. Perhaps the question to ask is not "Why is Vermont being so unreasonably strict?" but rather: "Why isn't more being done at the federal level to subsidize businesses and workers who have been severely impacted by this pandemic?"

 

[ilovepugs]

*(Although the orchard outbreak was related to out-of-state travel).

I would vehemently argue that the orchard outbreak was evidence of the travel restrictions working! Because of the quarantine requirement, we avoided general community spread.

"Why isn't more being done at the federal level to subsidize businesses and workers who have been severely impacted by this pandemic?"

I think we all have our own guesses as to the answer to that question.

 

[MissySki]

I do wish people would stop using the word "xenophobia" in referring to interstate travel restrictions/concerns. In the words of Inygo Montoya..., well, you know.

Matt seems afflicted with some logical fallacy related to causation:

1. Vermont has been more restrictive regarding tourism and travel than many states.
2. Vermont has relatively low COVID infection rates, especially those related to out-of-state tourists*.
3. Therefore, Vermont didn't need those rules to be so strict to out-of-state tourists.

*(Although the orchard outbreak was related to out-of-state travel).

Ski areas may look at these regulations and decide whether or not or to what extent they are able to operate this season. Some may go bankrupt. Many other businesses have already. Perhaps the question to ask is not "Why is Vermont being so unreasonably strict?" but rather: "Why isn't more being done at the federal level to subsidize businesses and workers who have been severely impacted by this pandemic?"

Xenophobia seems like as good of a word as any for those of us who aren't "local" and have followed the experiences of some without the correct license plates the past 6 months up north.. I mean, I'm currently not restricted from ME and have a rental for the next 6 months there regardless, but I'm also seriously considering getting ME license plates because I have to be concerned that even though I'm doing the right things a car from MA is a target. Which also makes me a target.

I don't really have any comments on the restrictions specifically. Since I don't ski VT, I'll save my critiques for when ME's come out. lol My only concern of VT's is that it would be so nice if the region could work together because they are likely going to push people to other states and cause more issues for them. Though luckily for us it should be the honest people who come over versus the ones who will break the rules in VT.

 

[ilovepugs]

I heartily agree that a more coordinated approach in the region would be useful and necessary. Crazy thought - maybe even one on the federal level?? Lol.

 

[MissySki]

I heartily agree that a more coordinated approach in the region would be useful and necessary. Crazy thought - maybe even one on the federal level?? Lol.

For skiing in particular or Covid in general? For skiing that would probably be overkill really considering things are so different from East coast skiing to destination resorts in the West. Plus the circumstances of the virus here versus in the western areas are really different right now too. Seems like the Northeast is all similar enough to work together on restrictions in a common way, but apparently that hasn't been the case. We also don't have to be as concerned with so much overturn of people coming from across the country to ski here.. even more reason to do it regionally.

 

[newboots]

I also take issue with Skiology Matt's assessment. I think he is over-reacting. There's a reason why Vermont's infection rate is so low. There is also a dramatic increase happening almost nationwide, and Vermont has not been completely spared. If we want to keep skiing, we have to keep the infection rate down. I hope these measures work.

 

[MissySki]

I also take issue with Skiology Matt's assessment. I think he is over-reacting. There's a reason why Vermont's infection rate is so low. There is also a dramatic increase happening almost nationwide, and Vermont has not been completely spared. If we want to keep skiing, we have to keep the infection rate down. I hope these measures work.

Just like everywhere else though my understanding is that current outbreaks are being driven by small private friend and family gatherings right? Measures in the outdoors won’t change that if people don’t knock off the social gatherings inside causing the issues. I am aware that Vermont locals will never agree with anyone else on their assessment of restrictions there though.

 

[newboots]

Just like everywhere else though my understanding is that current outbreaks are being driven by small private friend and family gatherings right?

Yes, friends and especially family lead the way. But there are about a hundred cases related to the ice rink games and party afterward, 50+ cases at a college, and we all know how well skiers obey rules. I feel that skiing, being outdoors, and spreading out the folks on the lift will help a lot, but there are opportunities to share germs. Two people on a quad, for example. Depends on mask compliance and sneeze propensity. And the bathrooms! Don't get me started.

Part of the local support for these measures is that the measures taken since March have proven to work very well, better than almost every other state. The government designs the measures based on detailed analysis of public health data, and the science drives policy. And it works.

 

[marzNC]

the contact tracing part.. How does one collect all of this information for every person each day??

The NY guidelines for ski resorts that were released in mid-October also included the need for info for potential contact tracing. Greek Peak is doing lift access reservations, so it's relatively easy to get the info when someone makes an online reservation.

 

[marzNC]

According to the SAM article about the VT guidelines, the contact tracing info requirement was added relatively recently. Sounds like VT may have used the NY guidelines as a starting point.

Nov. 3, Ski Area Management (SAM)
VERMONT UNVEILS STRINGENT WINTER OPERATING GUIDANCE
https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9709-vermont-unveils-resort-winter-operating-guidance
" . . .
"We have been working with the state for several months to get our guidance released, and a last-minute addition is asking our guests to certify their compliance and collect contact tracing data. With weeks now to go before the start of the season, this will be a challenge to implement. However, our ski areas are committed to doing everything they can to meet this guidance," said Mahar. [Vermont Ski Areas Association president]
. . ."

 

[WhyKnot]

Part of the local support for these measures is that the measures taken since March have proven to work very well, better than almost every other state. The government designs the measures based on detailed analysis of public health data, and the science drives policy. And it works.

Yes I agree and here only for positive support but as just one example, Vermont also designs these measures based on inflated data from other states, and I know from my county. (They make their own maps, to put it a different way, and some say it also because they want to maintain their "top" status but that is less my point here).

And and I do not think they (VT leadership) wants to do the work that, say, Cuomo does in NY, to address different areas of the state and be reasonable about different areas/counties/towns needs and realities. For instance what VT does with Grafton (County) NH (right over the river in the Upper Valley where people go back and forth all day) by inflating numbers by a multiple of 2.4 creates a worse infection rate (by their standards) in Grafton NH than Windsor (County) VT-- when Windsor's rate is actually higher.

And the impacts on the cross-border where I live -- and where we have such low community spread but we are bunched in with towns many many miles away since the county is enormous. So what this means is kids from Norwich and Hanover are in school during the day together can't do, for instance, do Ford Sayre skiing after school - and then if they don't figure that out -- they will be sending VT kids to much further away places with MORE infections in VT and it will be just be less safe in the end (which is not safe for VT either). Added to this: when people can come and go from Burlington with much higher numbers there, but cant come across the river which they do everyday anyway to a town with 1-4 infections (which on top of it has a mandated mask policy that people abide by), it does make one think that VT does not want to do that work to think community to community.

I can tell you I have spoken to very reasonable and highly adherent people who are not listening to the rules. As someone else smart here on this forum said, people follow rules when they are reasonable. A friend wanted to take a walk with her son outdoors and did. A friend of mine drove by to say hi outside -- in the front of the house in the street -- and did. I hadn't even realized I was doing anything "wrong" at the time.

tl;dr : I do not think the VT powers that be want to do the work of addressing the needs and realities of communities and want to throw an umbrella over everyone.

And I can also tell you I know of people (20s) who don't even follow the VT travel rules to begin with and a local paper has reported tourists coming in and not as well (and lying that they have) --- and they/these people IMO are less safe then someone, say, in Grafton County who DOES follow rules and wants to ski in VT. Now I know this is just about my little swath and does not help for people wanting to come in from CT or MA (etc) but hope it helped offer some info.

And as far as me and others who live 1 mile from VT in a next to no transmission NH town - and those of us who have been obsessively abiding by rules - I say it is harder to say "what "we" are not supposed to go to VT ski area when plenty of Burlington kids don't do all of what we do to adhere and who live in a place with more community spread and higher rates and they can go? Again, this brings us back to I wish the powers that be would put more energy into better, specific policies.

Please forgive rambling, long post. A lot of other things going on (!) and good to distract myself and up half night so maybe not so articulate.

 

[WhyKnot]

EXCERPT FROM THAT LIST FROM MATT: "The state is clearly approaching this from the standpoint of safety, and many things are unobjectionable, but not allowing lifts to be loaded with just one seat empty between riders is in excess of social distancing protocols even indoors within the state. ".

For me, I'm not comfortable sharing a quad with anyone as a single and will refuse to. I do not spend all this time being as cautious as I am to get stuck for many minutes with a sniffly sneezy anyone I do not know (and the quality of their mask? so important!)). It is not safe enough at that distance for me. This person cannot just say "6 feet" safe and at least for me I don't operate that way without taking other factors into account. And this is not something I have spent since March being vigilant to all of a sudden change. I actually called one of the resorts early on and asked if I would be forced to share lift if I wanted to ride - as I will not. And I am even more "extreme" than the guidelines they have set out in this regard. So I think at least this guideline is reasonable IMO.

 

[MissySki]

For me, I'm not comfortable sharing a quad with anyone as a single and will refuse to. I do not spend all this time being as cautious as I am to get stuck for many minutes with a sniffly sneezy anyone I do not know (and the quality of their mask? so important!)). It is not safe enough at that distance for me. This person cannot just say "6 feet" safe and at least for me I don't operate that way without taking other factors into account. And this is not something I have spent since March being vigilant to all of a sudden change. I actually called one of the resorts early on and asked if I would be forced to share lift if I wanted to ride - as I will not. And I am even more "extreme" than the guidelines they have set out in this regard. So I think at least this guideline is reasonable IMO.

I'm okay with sharing a quad on the ends with another person. So 2 seats empty in between, I'm not sure about a triple with only one seat in between.

Regardless though, I don't think anyone was saying people should be forced to do so in either case, I think the comment was more that if people were comfortable with that they should be allowed to versus restricting it all together? I don't feel very strongly about it either way myself, though we may feel differently when lines get very long in practice. I think I'd rather be moving on a lift versus standing in line in terms of exposure potential.

I'm comfortable with it either way somewhat only because it's outside and you are constantly moving and will have face coverings on. I'd probably rather be alone so I can pull my face covering down and get some fresh air though. I will say that last season at the end, Sunday River (and others) specifically put on their website that you could only ride with your own party and no singles. I was skiing solo, and it was impossible not to ride with others and there was a singles line but you couldn't get a chair solo even with the lifties guiding the lines. Like I would have had to stand in the middle of the corridor with my arms up and cause a commotion. Perhaps I would nowadays haha, but hopefully resorts will follow the rules in actual practice this time around versus the spring since we know a lot more now.

 

[WhyKnot]

I'd probably rather be alone so I can pull my face covering down and get some fresh air though..

But covering should be worn at all times. I am just saying though I get what you are saying also - didn't want to dial down on that I would not love to be behind someone who takes it off and sneezes. But of course we are all figuring this out as we go. For me, I think the more vigilant we all can be the better And the habits we form with ourselves create muscle memory (so I try to get in habits, but everyone is different). I know someone who died from Covid and they apparently did everything right and went to one outdoor family party. I hear you you are comfortable on the lift, that's cool and I respect that. For me, I am so vigilant -- even figuring out way not to go in lodge to go to bathroom -- and not going to make an exception to sit so close to a stranger who could at any time take off their mask. Because I live with someone in a vulnerable population I am extra cautious. But anyway, onward we go. Happy ski season to you.

 

[MissySki]

But covering should be worn at all times. I am just saying. I would not love to be behind someone who takes it off and sneezes. I think the more vigilant we all can be the better And the habits we form with ourselves create muscle memory. I know someone who died from Covid and they apparently did everything right and went to one outdoor family party. I hear you you are comfortable on the lift, that's cool and I respect that. For me, no way I will do it. I am so vigilant -- even figuring out way not to go in lodge to go to bathroom -- and not going to make an exception to sit so close to a stranger who could at any time take off their mask. Because I live with someone in a vulnerable population I am extra cautious. But anyway, onward we go. Happy ski season to you.

I'm not sure this would be enforceable on a lift to be honest.. I do know that I rode the chairlift at Wachusett for fall foliage a few weeks ago and people mostly had them pulled down on the lift. I could only see this because people were uploading and downloading so you could see them coming at you versus in normal ski days where everyone is facing the same direction. They would then have them back on to get off at the top or bottom. Everyone is obviously much further than 6 feet apart and outside, so I had no problem with this and I've heard of no issues for them the entire time they were open for lift rides. I believe that was the synopsis of what happened at Wolf Creek too from the review I saw for their opening day.

I again have no strong feelings on that either way, but I think that one will be very hard pressed to be enforced when people are alone on a lift and not visible. I'd be more worried about gondolas where people will surely remove their masks when alone and then it's an enclosed space with less ventilation than a chairlift that someone else gets into. Luckily there are no gondolas I need to take at Sunday River. When I skied at Big Snow in New Jersey I had my mask on at all times since it was inside and it was fine. Saw a couple of people there lower their mask on occasion if out of breath or have noses sticking out too though. I think anyone who expects 100% compliance of masks the entire time on the part of people who are very socially distanced outdoors on a mountain may be disappointed.. In lines etc. of course that goes without saying! Also once it's colder it will be better in general.

Have you hiked at all this summer? I only went once, but OMG practically no one had a face covering to pass people. I had one and would always pull it up when passing anyone or if they passed me, and I'd say 95% of people had nothing. That irritated me, I had expected everyone to at least do what I was doing and cover up when needed because trails are pretty narrow. Nope!

I won't be using the lodges at all, so any of that part doesn't concern me.

 

[SallyCat]

I want to put on my historian hat and say that "xenophobia" is generally understood as the irrational fear of foreigners on account of their foreign-ness/otherness; traits that are inherent and impossible for a person to change. Xenophobia has been a deadly and pernicious force in the world, and unfortunately, one that demagogues repeatedly find it easy to tap into for nefarious purposes.

Concern about interstate travel in a pandemic is completely different and perfectly reasonable. I don't fear or hate people from New York or Connecticut or Mass. because of inherent traits or a sense of "otherness." I have a reasonable concern about the spread of a contagious disease and hope that those from out of state have taken appropriate precautions.

Absent consistent national leadership on COVID combined with wildly varying rates of compliance, we've all been left largely on our own to do what we can to keep ourselves safe. It's inevitable that we will have differing ideas on what constitutes "safe" and we may feel judged at times, and at other times we may pass judgment. Happily, I'm not aware of any overt harassment of out-of-staters in VT lately; NY, NJ, CT, MA, and ME plates are so ubiquitous here, and there are so many lawful avenues for people to travel here, that my impression is that it's not a big deal.

So in short, my plea is: let's not diminish the meaning of a word that serves an important purpose in helping us articulate one of the great evils of modern times.

@WhyKnot I'm curious about the data behind your concerns about rate reporting; can you share your source? From what I've seen in places such as the Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins, Grafton County, NH, has almost double the infection rate of Windsor County, VT (where I live). I don't know how that correlates to the formula used for travel restrictions, so I'm curious to know more. I have heard that Dartmouth is lowballing it's reported infection numbers, but that's just local scuttlebutt. Who knows how that's getting filtered through the town vs. gown grapevine.

 

[MissySki]

Happily, I'm not aware of any overt harassment of out-of-staters in VT lately; NY, NJ, CT, MA, and ME plates are so ubiquitous here, and there are so many lawful avenues for people to travel here, that my impression is that it's not a big deal.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one since I've seen numerous reports (including from personal friend sources that I trust) of people having tires slashed, cars marked with messages of GO HOME (in less ideal language), and someone had their car window broken. This is not just VT but has happened in places in NH for sure and I've heard of verbal harassment for some in ME too. I doubt this just goes away as tourist season ramps up this winter with cases spiking in the background as well. Yet no one know if people are in compliance with rules or where they even live based on a license plate.

 

[SallyCat]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one since I've seen numerous reports (including from personal friend sources that I trust) of people having tires slashed, cars marked with messages of GO HOME (in less ideal language), and someone had their car window broken. This is not just VT but has happened in places in NH for sure and I've heard of verbal harassment for some in ME too. I doubt this just goes away as tourist season ramps up this winter with cases spiking in the background as well. Yet no one know if people are in compliance with rules or where they even live based on a license plate.

I'm really sorry to hear that; I was very outspoken against that nastiness back in the spring when it was more evident/reported. We had a man almost attacked in a grocery store parking lot in our town, and one woman printed up a bunch of "Local's Only" bumper stickers and slapped them all over people's cars if they were from out of state. Plenty of people had come up here to stay in their vacation homes and had followed the quarantine rules and weren't doing anything wrong. It was ridiculous, and we were afraid someone was going to get hurt.

I guess I haven't seen or heard anything in the news or socially since the early summer about harassment, and I optimistically hoped things had quieted down. There are always jerks ready to ruin your day, it seems. Honestly, it's so stupid since you hardly drive anywhere around the Upper Valley without seeing out-of-state plates, especially with colleges in session and countless paths to legal travel.

 

[MissySki]

To follow up on what I said previously regarding people on the lift at Wachusett.. I wanted to double check their website before specifying, but their rules do read that face coverings are to be worn at all times inside and then outside “where social distancing can’t be maintained”. It says lift lines and the on off ramp for the lift, but not required on the lift itself. I didn’t want anyone to think I was saying that people were ignoring the rule to have it on when I said most had pulled it down on the lift. That was the rule as written being followed.

This may get updated though considering MA will go to requiring masks at all times in public outside even when distance is able to be maintained this Friday. I believe that this is really being done for the cities and more congested areas where it’s more likely you’ll encounter others etc., but it’s applied on a statewide basis. We’ll see if there is any exemption for sports or being in the woods alone haha.

Sunday River previously had listed that they would only require outside where distance can’t be maintained as well, but when I checked again today their site specifies “including on the lift”. I still stand by the doubt of this piece being necessary if you’re alone and whether people will comply, but it’s not a huge deal to me either way.

How will people smoke their weed on the chairlift with a mask on? Lol I can’t imagine there is any stopping that. Though I sure hope people aren’t dumb enough to share with friends on chairs with Covid..

@WhyKnot also meant to add earlier that I’m sorry to hear about your loss of the person who passed from Covid.

 

[WhyKnot]

Here's a local NPR / VPR interview about ski areas and protocols. Short about 3 minutes or so.

I wish they would have talked about and clarified about how VT is figuring out the "400" level infection number by inflating rates in other counties and how VT's map is different from the others. A missed journalistic moment, but one day at a time and we are all learning. The contact tracing indeed seems... wow. PS Thanks for this thread!

Scroll down to #1 -
https://www.vpr.org/post/health-officials-ramp-covid-19-restrictions-vermont-ski-areas#stream/0