Unsolicited Venting

[Skier31]

I have never seen any Renoun ads. I have skied some of their skis which were made available to Tricia and Phil. I do not really care about their ads and whether women are featured. I care about how their skis perform.

The posts I read seem to say that people like the skis but think the ads are bad.

I think some of these posts have been way too harsh. Advertising is designed to sell product.
So, conpanies need to do what they need to do. I guess I do not see the big deal.

It seems Renoun is working hard to make great products and connect with skiers.
Good on them.

 

[tinymoose]

I've been biting my tongue, but as someone who can't ski most adult skis (including Renouns b/c length), I really couldn't care less about what is in a magazine. I sit on the perpetual cusp of shrink it and pink it and junior skis. I know shrink it and pink it is an unpopular idea here (the horror and offense!), but if it weren't for "shrink it and pink it" i'd be skiing exclusively pool noodles or junior skis exclusively. I get that's not the norm for most women here, but shrink it and pink it isn't a bad thing for some of us, the shrink it, not the pink it. I honestly envy most of you who have an endless array of skis available to you that I just don't have b/c of my size and ability.

Boutique ski brands are never going to market to me and I get why they don't. I'm a tiny part of the market.

 

[SnowHot]

I've been biting my tongue, but as someone who can't ski most adult skis (including Renouns b/c length), I really couldn't care less about what is in a magazine. I sit on the perpetual cusp of shrink it and pink it and junior skis. I know shrink it and pink it is an unpopular idea here (the horror and offense!), but if it weren't for "shrink it and pink it" i'd be skiing exclusively pool noodles or junior skis exclusively. I get that's not the norm for most women here, but shrink it and pink it isn't a bad thing for some of us, the shrink it, not the pink it. I honestly envy most of you who have an endless array of skis available to you that I just don't have b/c of my size and ability.

Boutique ski brands are never going to market to me and I get why they don't. I'm a tiny part of the market.

Ironically, this is where Renoun sets itself apart.
We had quite a discussion with Cryus and his team about scaling sizing and softening certain skis for the smaller skier (man or woman) so that the shorter lengths work for the target audience, which is you.

 

[ilovepugs]

So I totally agree with the points made above about not being all things to all people, but what I think is the issue is that the overall branding has felt really exclusive of women, which is unfortunate. Representation matters and in this male dominated sport, it always sucks when the viewpoint and awareness is catered exclusively to men.

As I said to a number of people privately, Cyrus is young so it’s ok to cut him some slack. Learning how to message and build a brand that is inclusive isn’t something that happens overnight and takes a high degree of emotional intelligence. However, in my opinion as a non-professional marketer whose job is very sales-oriented, 21st century consumer products marketing - especially in a crowded and competitive field - really demands a high degree of consumer engagement with the brand. Limiting the type of engagement to a fixed slice of an already high-end and limited market does not strike me as a pathway to growth.

It was kind of shocking to me that he specifically came on to the site with a message that underscored the point that inclusivity was not a huge priority but again, it’s a learning process. I’m happy to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that his post was inarticulate rather than truly out of the desire to build a brand that excludes women.

 

[nopoleskier]

"It was kind of shocking to me that he specifically came on to the site with a message that underscored the point that inclusivity"

@ilovepugs again, Ski Diva invited him to come here - He didn't ask to come on here!! He agreed to join in to learn more about what we want, I doubt he thought he'd be drawn and quartered?
Based on the pissy behavior I Doubt we'll get this close to a ski creator again. If we do I'll be giving fair warning to the bitchy behavior that can arise.

I'm also Wondering Can you anti-Renoun women talk to the designer builder of your skis? Have Rossi or K2,line or your beloved J ski company contacted you to see what you want in a ski? Doubtful. Do they give you a 100day Guarantee to test drive their skis? NO WAY, No one does that.

Honestly, It is embarrassing how many of you spewed hate and disgust for no reason IMO. Please Open your minds, take a chill pill, I have some cheese to go with your whine.

the issue is that the overall branding has felt really exclusive of women,

Most ski companies Do not market to women, we've all complained about the 1/2 naked women in most ski ads? I'm wondering How many Renouns have you seen? My White Limited edition Z-90s are PRETTY- I doubt men would choose them. It's a shame you seem to have closed your mind due to Cyrus' honesty in explaining how to get a ski to market. Skis should be Uni-sex they were for decades. That's smart business! How many companies have the same ski but the ladies version is same ski with a pink flowered top sheet? NOOOOOOOOO I DON'T WANT PINK RENOUNS EVER! I don't need flowers on my skis to feel special in fact I cringe at them.

Also to those of you that have bashed these skis I'm wondering...Have you even Skied Renouns?

I see nothing wrong with wanting the Branding Cyrus is after: "THE GREATEST Technological advancement in Skis EVER" HDT is amazing for Women and Men. I Can't wait to go ski them today!!

 

[ski diva]

Okay, time for my two cents.

First, I love this thread. This discussion has been outstanding, and I've loved following the twists and turns it's taken (Cyrus is EVIL. No, he's not, he's CLUELESS. No he's not, he's a GENIUS.)

I agree with a lot of what's been said (though not the evil part). This is a very young company with limited resources. Until a couple years ago, Cyrus was driving around from ski area to ski area himself, trying to get people to try his skis -- so much so that some company (I think it was Marriott) even featured him in a commercial. All the same, he's done a number of things brilliantly. First, he has a stellar product. I mean, seriously, these skis are amazing. They've racked up a ton of awards for technology, and I don't think I've seen one bad review. And second, he's gotten terrific press. The skis have attracted a ton of buzz without a lot of marketing. Sure, Renoun has a great web site , but as far as I know, they haven't run any ads (heck, I didn't even know they had a catalog).

Do I personally, care that Renoun doesn't feature women? Sure, who wouldn't want to see women better represented in the outdoor industry? I think it's gotten better, but with few exceptions (Coalition, Title IX, and a few others), it's particularly male-oriented. Among avid skiers, however, I don't think it matters too much. To us, it's more important that a ski come in the models, lengths, and flexes we're looking for. That said, I think it's important for women to have more visibility. People of color, too. It sends a message about the company's priorities and who they value as customers. As far as Renoun is concerned, I'll second what some others have said: this is a young, small company with growing pains. I don't think their intent was evil (let's leave women out!); I think it was a decision on where to concentrate resources. Sure, there was a bit of cluelessness, too. For example, when I first met Cyrus a few years ago, I could immediately tell why his skis were only available in really long lengths. The dude is like 6'6"! My son-in-law is the same height, and he's always putting stuff where I can't reach it. It's not because he's mean, he just doesn't see the world the same way as someone who's 5'1".

This isn't a free pass. I still think that pointing out the absence of women is important. Because even though I'm not offended in this particular case (because the company is so new and small), I think in general, you need to acknowledge that we're out there, and not just as eye candy or appendages to men. I accept Cyrus's explanation that it will get better, and it will be slow. All the things that need to be done to change things cost money: building new ads, catalogs, etc. But I love that this has come up here, because the industry can see that we're watching. And that's important.

(I love that this discussion is going on in a forum that bans men, however. As always, I understand why it exists, but sometime the pot-meet-kettle aspect is just too much...)

Point taken. I make no apologies for this forum, but I wonder if this conversation would have gone the same way in a mixed venue.

 

[ilovepugs]

Seriously @nopoleskier? Is the name-calling really necessary? I’m certain that my post was clear that I, personally, don’t have any interest in drawing and quartering Cyrus.

My first post was unrelentingly positive - other than pointing out the blind spot in his marketing - and the follow up post (not the bullshit chatter) - and the second was basically reiterating why I didn’t agree with his response but publicly repeating a message that I said privately that we should cut him some slack. Even with our differences in opinion on the way this was handled by him, I’m fully in accord with the Renoun supporters who are more interested in participating in a civil and constructive dialogue.

Jason of J Skis and I have had a number of discussions about his skis. He’s always been receptive and always given me the impression that he genuinely cares about my feedback. But Jason is a guy in his 40s who’s built and sold multiple companies before J Skis - first Line, then Full Tilt - and he’s also a genius marketer. J Skis and Renoun are both based out of Burlington and I know that Jason provides advice and mentoring to Cyrus. It’s certainly not an either/or for me and I certainly haven’t excluded Renoun from future consideration. I just think Jason does it better because it’s not his first rodeo.

 

[ilovepugs]

[I just want to add the usual disclaimer that my views are my own and in no way representative of J Skis, my old firm, or any other entity I’m associated with. Jason and I don’t have any professional or personal connection - I only have gotten to know him a little bit through buying his skis and formerly living in the same city.]

 

[nopoleskier]

@ilovepugs Namecalling?? when? where? Where did I call anyone names?

Only name calling I see came from Divas calling Cyrus Evil? Uncaring? Clueless??
Me Calling out 'pissy, bitchy behavior" is what I perceive has been written by several divas on here?
I was pointing out Facts -he was invited on here not like some including your posts continue to state "He asked to be on here?"

Flip the Switch:
FYI I've NEVER Heard of or seen your Jason J skis?!!!
I've never seen J skis in ads, in demo or ski racks,
I've never heard about them on ski forums?
the comments on here are First time I've ever heard of them?!
Will you tell Jason his marketing sucks (like Divas on here have told Cyrus?) Doubtful
Will you tell him He missed his mark marketing to women because I never heard of them? Doubtful
Will he send out FREE Skis to women that can help market his skis? Unknown.
Does He give a 100day Guarantee? No way.

I was making a point that being rude, pissy, bitchy like many on here have come across, sure Doesn't look or feel so good. Yes I am embarrassed by some of the posts. I have had interaction as a woman w/ Renoun skis asking my input. So Yes I did/do take offense to many of the harsh comments on here.

You still didn't answer my questions:
Have you skied Renouns? I'm guessing No
Have you seen the Limited edition pretty white Skis? I'm guessing No again

So sorry if you are offended by my defense of a good company. I will defend @Renoun because I KNOW they are that great. To each her own.

I'm going out skiing on my Z-90's Best part is I KNOW I will have a wonderful day.
I hope your turns are as good as I know mine will be. Cheers

 

[ski diva]

Okay, each of you have had your say. Let's cool it down a bit, shall we?

 

[SnowHot]

[I just want to add the usual disclaimer that my views are my own and in no way representative of J Skis, my old firm, or any other entity I’m associated with. Jason and I don’t have any professional or personal connection - I only have gotten to know him a little bit through buying his skis and formerly living in the same city.]

I would like to point out that Jason Levinthal and Cyrus know each other fairly well and that Jason is in a very different situation, having started a ski company, sold it to a big ski company and started up again with some experience. Much(but not all) of what Cyrus is doing with his platform is based on mentoring from Jason.
*Disclaimer: I know both of these brilliant men.

 

[ilovepugs]

Okay, each of you have had your say. Let's cool it down a bit, shall we?

 

[volklgirl]

While I think Cyrus’ response was unfortunate, it seemed to be honest and without malice. I get why a start-up with a very young and pretty inexperienced CEO would choose a male-focused marketing plan for their product.

In general, women are a total afterthought in this industry, and rightly so. Despite the knowledge and tech savvy nature of our enthusiastic group, most female skiers have zero interest in their equipment, even if it doesn’t especially work for them. In the majority of families, the father gets newish gear, the racer kids get top-notch stuff every year, and the mother is the last to get upgrades. This is a choice we make as women who generally put our families first. Ask the women about their skis and most will give you a blank look. Given this generalization, why would a small company market to that group????

As a plus-sized woman, I get particularly frustrated by equipment choices and marketing (even the women who are portrayed are cute and skinny, and hevean forbid you should try to find tech clothing for a fat chick!), so I’ve learned to just ignore it. If the gear works for me, I’m good!

Even Coalition Snow seems to have marketing issues. Sure, they make fantastic skis for women, but their email blasts and online presence have a decidedly anti-male feel. I don’t get that at all.

I think WE need to be the ski industry’s maerketing plan: tactfully explaining to the manufacturers and marketers how we feel, and what they may want to change and why; if we find something that works, or someone who listens, we must sing their praises to the world, not just here, but everywhere; and educate others about equipment and technique so THEY, too, can help elevate the markets’ understanding. We must fight for recognition, but vitriol and criticism is not the way to go about it.

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

I hope that someday, this whole thread will be an archaic, moot point in the sense that there is a cultural shift toward gender equality. It won't be in my lifetime, but I do have hope for the future.

I've pretty much said all I have to say about this, so I'm going to peace out to other threads. I value the community and comraderie of Ski Divas more than I care about pushing my views further. There are good points on all the sides I've read, and this is a complicated issue (an understatement).

Cyrus @Renoun, I again thank you for your time. This couldn't have been easy for you, and I appreciate that you did this, even if it sparked some opposing views. That could be viewed as a good thing, because you got to see the myriad of different female perspectives within 3 pages of one thread lol. But seriously, keep making sweet skis, developing your amazing concept, and when you think about pursuing the women sector of your market, I hope you represent us well.

Now, to tackle the only downside to getting some snow.... Shoveling the driveway on ski-stiff muscles. Wish me strength, ladies.

 

[SnowHot]

Even Coalition Snow seems to have marketing issues. Sure, they make fantastic skis for women, but their email blasts and online presence have a decidedly anti-male feel. I don’t get that at all.

You get that feeling too? I thought it was just me. I like promoting women's skis from a women ski company, but I don't like the anti man vibe I get. I mean...I like men
FWIW, I've talked to Jenn a handful of times, and have run into her at Mt Rose, but I've never skied Coalition skis because we just don't seem to get our timing right. One of these days I'll meet her at Rose and get on some skis.

 

[pinto]

I have never seen any Renoun ads. I have skied some of their skis which were made available to Tricia and Phil. I do not really care about their ads and whether women are featured. I care about how their skis perform.

The posts I read seem to say that people like the skis but think the ads are bad.

I think some of these posts have been way too harsh. Advertising is designed to sell product.
So, conpanies need to do what they need to do. I guess I do not see the big deal.

It seems Renoun is working hard to make great products and connect with skiers.
Good on them.

Yeah, I do find it interesting that there is a definite divide around here (this isn't the first time) that some people are really conscious of marketing and advertising and others just ... aren't. Obviously advertising is a huge business and it works, or people wouldn't spend the money on it, but it doesn't work for or affect everyone. I fall into the category of being completely oblivious to most of it, or at least taking it with nothing more than a grain of salt. Not saying that's good or bad, it just is. I would be interested in statistics regarding the percentage of sales affected by catalogs/ads vs word of mouth vs demoing vs online forum chatter vs shop talk vs social media, etc. (noting that all of those things could play into one purchase). I'm sure that info is out there (and I of all people should know where to find it, lol).

But as @volklgirl said so eloquently, sometimes you just have to accept that your little unique demographic isn't going to be 100% represented. I mean, I wish ski pants were a lot longer. That doesn't mean we shouldn't give opinions and try to raise awareness about what we see is lacking; it just means we need to show a little grace and realize that sometimes people just can't do everything, especially all at once.

 

[RachelV]

... Cyrus Schenk, the founder of Renoun Skis, has asked if he can respond to this thread, so I'm granting him access to this thread for a few days. ...

... I was pointing out Facts -he was invited on here not like some including your posts continue to state "He asked to be on here? ...

Seems like he asked to participate.

 

[ski diva]

Seems like he asked to participate.

Yes.

 

[lisamamot]

Thoughts and caveats:

• I am not particularly sensitive to marketing. I am much more sensitive to companies having a quality product and making solid social and environmental choices.
• I love to sleuth. If I have a want, need or desire, I will find the product or service.
• I love gear and the associated technological advances but I understand I am an outlier to general statistics.
• I value honesty over pretty much anything else. Brutal honesty can be, well, brutal but frankly I prefer that to someone blowing sunshine up my...well, you know.

I read the @Renoun response and thought "yeah, that makes sense". I didn't feel it was in any way meant to convey there was no interest in women, just that the original target audience was men. Did it have to be done that way? Of course not, but it was and I appreciate the honest response; no attempt to bullshit. There will always be growing pains and given what an incredible product he apparently has I am sure they will get addressed. Some day I hope to get on the Z-90...kind of afraid to though since I do enjoy my quiver!

If anyone knows any ladies that rip and take good photos, definitely have them reach out, we need more than 1!

^^^@elemmac you immediately came to mind as a female who rips and takes great photos of your adventures. Maybe you should reach out!

@elemmac I so agree with this - you would be perfect!

We are a pain in the ass! (Yes, in the end we are worth it...) It's too much! It's too little! You won't listen! Ok you listened, but I don't like what you say

I love your chill perspective....and the laugh I got from this Yup, I admit I am guilty of this at times.

 

[Tvan]

Cyrus seems to be a good guy, and he’s definitely a good sport. He put himself in a potentially vulnerable situation and responded to the forum. Courageous!

The Renoun company message to the original poster was that Renoun is working on marketing more to women. Posters here gave him some suggestions. As per recent posts, it seems that some of the Divas have been working with him. That’s great!

Whether marketing is important to us individually or not, I’m in agreement with @ski diva ‘s earlier post that it’s important to have the conversation about representation.

The ski industry is male-centric. So is my workplace. I had lunch with a white male colleague last week, and we got talking about workplace experience, which is currently a hot topic. I made the comment that our office is a difficult place to be as a woman. He looked like I hit him with a frying pan. He had no perspective of the “bro-ness” (to use @SallyCat ’s terminology) of our office environment. None. He had zero frame of reference. By sharing, in a “please-pass-the-salt” tone, I was able to give him a small glimpse of how I experience our workplace. The discussion was respectful, amicable and productive. My office culture likely won’t change because of this conversation, but my colleague and I both came away from it with new understanding.

Change happens from the ground up, and we’re the start of that discussion. Whether one small niche ski company changes their strategy or not, the point is to have the discussion. I can’t change my office culture, and I can’t change the ski industry focus. But together, in small ways, we can share our experiences and maybe give our colleagues, friends and business owners the opportunity to wear someone else’s shoes for a few minutes. If that brings greater understanding, the effort is worthwhile.