Vonn asks to race against the men!

[pinto]

...And this kind of thing has a long history in sports-from tennis to horse racing, the question of "can the women compete with the men" is once that people find relevant and interesting.

Yes, it does, every time a woman dominates the field in tennis. I don't know much about horses, though. In tennis ... it is quite silly, if you know anything about the sport. Serena Williams is probably the best woman tennis has ever seen, but a good college guy would beat her fairly easily.

We are talking about the highest levels of a sport, obviously ... the strongest and fastest men will always be stronger and faster than the strongest and fastest women. Even though the strongest and fastest women are stronger and faster than 99% of the rest of men in the world. Etc Etc.

I do believe in equal prize money, though! equal opportunity, equal access to PEDs, all that good stuff... ;-)

 

[Christy]

I think she does an awful lot of things for publicity, and I can see how that would bug someone. But I'm such a fan of the sport, and she really does attract positive attention to it in this country through her efforts. So, it works for me.

With the course sets, they tend to have the men ski steep sections that they route the women around. So anyone skiing the men's course is going to reach higher speeds. This probably accounts for some of the time difference.

 

[Christy]

Oh and I just remembered-they don't inject the women's courses with water routinely as they do men's. That makes men's courses a lot faster (and harder).

 

[litterbug]

Oh and I just remembered-they don't inject the women's courses with water routinely as they do men's. That makes men's courses a lot faster (and harder).

This. A longer, steeper course, better prepared, injected, and set for higher speeds, is a different animal. And Vonn certainly wouldn't even consider it if she didn't think she'd have an impact. Who knows, maybe she's handling the new ski specs better than some of the top guys.

Sure, Vonn likes attention, but you're not going to convince me that she doesn't deserve it. That might be controversial, but some people don't mind being stars. Not everyone is going to mumble and shuffle their feet like Bode Miller.

 

[pinto]

I remember Vonn whining about injected courses a few years ago ... she skied off in Aspen, I think. Said they shouldn't inject for the women. Hmmm.

We skied down the Streif when in Austria last spring ... the Hahnenkamm had been run about 10 days before. It had snowed quite a bit since, and the edges of the run were nice and soft, but the places where we had to cross from one side to the other, holy crap. We had also been skiing off piste for the previous 3 days -- you know, on village roads, through river beds, lol, so we had no edges left -- which didn't matter until we tried to ski gently across that injected surface. I fell on my hip, going about 1 mph, haha.

 

[Christy]

I remember that differently...I thought all the ladies at Aspen that year complained about the bad injection job; they blamed Aspen officials; Aspen officials blamed the dry air which sucked too much moisture out of the course (this seems to be a perennial trouble spot--I wish they'd quit trying to race at Aspen at Thanksgiving)...if Lindsay really did say that I guess she had a change of heart!

 

[pinto]

I remember that differently...I thought all the ladies at Aspen that year complained about the bad injection job; they blamed Aspen officials; Aspen officials blamed the dry air which sucked too much moisture out of the course (this seems to be a perennial trouble spot--I wish they'd quit trying to race at Aspen at Thanksgiving)...if Lindsay really did say that I guess she had a change of heart!

I think everyone complained!

(eta:except the winners)

a couple of articles ... looks like they've backed off what they did in 09, but Vonn didn't like it

https://www.cbc.ca/olympics/story/2010/01/07/spo-courses-too-icy.html

Water-injected ski hills centre of icy debate

Veteran skier likens practice to car-racing officials spraying oil on a track

Last Updated: Thursday, January 7, 2010 | 6:37 PM ET

The Associated Press​

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Lindsey Vonn crashed at a World Cup slalom event on Dec. 28, 2009. (Joe Klamar/Getty Images)​

With the Vancouver Games a little more than a month away, U.S. star Lindsey Vonn is a central figure in a debate consuming the Alpine skiing circuit.
Skiers and others are asking whether it's a mistake to inject slopes with water to try to make courses more consistent and weather-resistant.
The question has arisen after some Canadian skiers were forced to withdraw from Olympic competition because of injuries suffered on slippery slopes.
The practice of water injecting can result in conditions that Vonn likened to "pond ice" after she skied off-course during a slalom at Aspen, Colo., this season.
"It's not ski racing anymore," Vonn, a two-time overall World Cup champion and Olympic medal favourite, said that day. "I don't think it does anyone a service to have it this difficult. It doesn't look good on TV."
And that was before Vonn fell during a giant slalom on another injected course, at Lienz, Austria, last month, leaving her injured arm in a sling.
The tumble prompted her husband, former U.S. Ski Team member Thomas Vonn, to say skiing officials' use of water injection would be the equivalent of car-racing officials deciding to "spray oil randomly every couple hundred yards" on a track.
"They made the conditions pure ice directly at the gate and then grippy everywhere else, which, in my opinion, is the most dangerous condition a racer can encounter," Thomas wrote then in an email to The Associated Press.
When a course is injected, water is forced into the snow through tiny nozzles on a high-pressure hose.
As cold air seeps in, a layer of hard snow and ice is created, so the slope will not deteriorate as dozens of racers ski over it or be rendered useless if the temperature gets too warm or too much rain or fresh, soft snow falls — vagaries of weather than can otherwise lead to postponement of races.
In two-run races — slaloms and giant slaloms — the top skiers from the first run go in reverse order in the second, so if the course doesn't hold up well, the lower-ranked skiers could have an advantage.
Sometimes injection is used on only portions of a course, sometimes on the whole thing.
"Once you have an injected surface, it's very unlikely you're going to lose an event, an important thing from the standpoint of TV contracts and prize money and World Cup standings," said Jim Hancock, the race chief at Aspen for more than a decade.
"The downside is, it does make it really, really hard and icy and, in some cases, real slick."
According to an official from the International Ski Federation, known as FIS, it's likely that injection will be used at Whistler, B.C., where Alpine events will be held during the Feb. 12-28 Olympics.
"It lets us hold a lot of the races, even with changing weather conditions — warm temperatures, rain, snowfall," said women's World Cup race director Atle Skaardal, a former racer and coach for Norway. "Basically, injection is insurance."
Injections likely for men's courses

Skaardal, who will help oversee women's Alpine racing at Whistler, expects injection to be used there throughout a course for technical races (slalom, giant slalom) and possibly for parts of the speed events (downhill, super-G). He thinks it's more likely that injection will be used for men's races than women's.
"The experience we've had is that for ladies, it's not working out that well for speed courses," Skaardal acknowledged in a telephone interview Thursday. "It makes it quite brutal in downhill and super-G."
Injected courses also tend to be harder, which translates to more pounding when racers fall.
Injections are part of the larger conversation about a recent rash of injuries to prominent skiers — one of the factors cited as a possible explanation, along with questions about equipment, gates that don't break apart and whether speeds have simply grown too fast.
Downhill world champion John Kucera, World Cup slalom champion Jean-Baptiste Grange and former women's overall World Cup winner Nicole Hosp are among the racers already ruled out for Vancouver. Peter Fill, Pierre-Emmanuel Dalcin, TJ Lanning, Lara Gut and Resi Stiegler also have been sidelined.
"We now have discussions going on: 'What is the reason behind (all the injuries)?' If we would know it, we would change the rules immediately, of course," FIS president Gian-Franco Kasper said.
"One thing we have also to say is we are in an Olympic season, and many athletes have to qualify. They take absolute full risk because they see the Olympic Games coming up."
More injuries with injections

After her fall in Austria, Vonn said that women have suffered more injuries since injections began.
"You know, it's not appropriate for women's racing. … I personally do not think that they need to be injecting the course. But if they inject, they just need to do it right. It needs less water in the snow. They need to find a system that works, because this system is definitely not working."
As Herbert Mandl, the coach of the Austrian women's team, put it: "A slightly wrong judgment can … completely destroy a course."
Racers have complained about how slippery the slopes become when injected. They also note that, safety issues aside, the results of a race can be affected.
"It's so hard to know how much attacking you can do," said Sweden's Anja Paerson, another two-time overall World Cup champion and owner of five Olympic medals. "Some turns are just slick, and some are really grippy."
Said Germany's Kathrin Hoelzl, the reigning world champion in giant slalom who won at Aspen: "Ice is OK. Too icy is not good."
Hoelzl said it's easier for men to deal with icy, injected courses. Indeed, men's World Cup races have been using this method for more years than women's events, which only have made it a regular practice the past two seasons.​

https://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-11-29/sports/29436769_1_skis-kathrin-zettel-lindsey-vonn

 

[bounceswoosh]

I think she does an awful lot of things for publicity, and I can see how that would bug someone. But I'm such a fan of the sport, and she really does attract positive attention to it in this country through her efforts. So, it works for me.

Right. Publicity hounds are annoying. But look at the difference in earnings between a professional male athlete and a female athlete. A friend of mine co-owns a snowsports company and has commented that they have the opportunity to sponsor several female riders that they would never be able to talk to, were they males. Have you ever read that book "Women Don't Ask" about the negotiation gender gap and how it impacts women's incomes? Women don't get big sponsorships and prize money because they don't draw as much attention as the men. And they don't draw as much attention as the men in part because they don't get big sponsorships and prize money, so they don't have same resources. But the answer to this is clearly not to whine about how women's sports aren't drawing as much money - no one responds to that by opening up their wallet. So what's the answer? A female athlete getting more publicity has a trickle-down effect on all the women in her sport.

 

[EnglishSnowflake]

We have a show here called Ski Sunday which is on the BBC during the winter, it's a combination of racing and general interest stories for ski folk, last year Lindsey was interviewed by Chemmy Alcott (who is our top female racer but was out through injury last season) and this subject exactly was brought up. Chemmy asked Lindsey directly if she would like to ski a men's track (Lauberhorn maybe? struggling to remember so don't quote me on that) and she replied that she would like a go but maybe not as icy as the men have it. Guess she must have reconsidered.

In general I am a big fan of Lindsey, she seems to work very hard to get to the top of her sport & has managed to do so and still be feminine. I applaud her for bringing the subject up for discussion, for being willing to push the boundaries and too am glad that it wasn't dismissed out of hand but is being considered in terms of the sport's rules rather than of gender capability.

I would be interested to see whether she could be competitive or not, it is definitely an 'if' in my mind but I guess if someone doesn't try it we will never know.

 

[Christy]

It probably helps that LL is the probably the easiest DH course on the regular circuit. Kitzbuhel it is not. So if she doesn't like injected courses, or didn't like them 3 years ago, or doesn't like them done badly, or whatever, LL is probably her safest bet for trying it.

 

[Matoaka]

For any female athlete, from little league, to high school football, to pro tennis and skiing, to have the the guts and drive to compete with the boys...I say go for it. When you get to the top of you game in the female circuit where else is there to go? Yeah, some of it may be publicity, but haven't you ever wondered how you could match up against the boys??

There are some sports that don't separate the men from woman. I competed in some Karate Tourn. that didn't separate. The girls had the advantage in the "forms". And Sled dog racing...the lighter girls have an advantage kinda like a jockey. The boys have the advantage when the number of dogs pulling gets higher. So I say Go Lindsey...show us what you can do! And if she gets publicity out of it, so what, it gave us something to write about

 

[pinto]

For any female athlete, from little league, to high school football, to pro tennis and skiing, to have the the guts and drive to compete with the boys...I say go for it. When you get to the top of you game in the female circuit where else is there to go? Yeah, some of it may be publicity, but haven't you ever wondered how you could match up against the boys??

Well, probably not to the very top of the men's circuit.

 

[Matoaka]

No probably not.....but maybe it's a stepping stone to up her game a bit (if that's possible), give her some kind of mental edge, give her a new challenge, even if it's to beat the worst racer on the men's circuit.

 

[litterbug]

Do all those people run the Boston Marathon because they think they can beat the Kenyans? Do women run the marathon because they think they can beat the men in their age class? Did those Argentine skiers with the Petruccio skin suits compete because they thought they'd win the world cup? Or even a single run? And how about that lone Spanish woman who was the last for every run? The only advantage to watching the live feed last year was that I could watch every single competitor, while the broadcast version tends to cut the bottom racers off. In fact, I remember a race where they shut the course down before the lowest ranked racers had even started the course, and it took half an hour for the course to be re-activated (probably because staff had all skied down) so they could compete. Of course Lindsay doesn't want to be last, but there's some honor in saying she even qualified for a run.

 

[pinto]

 

[RachelV]

Pinto, what does that emoticon mean? I really don't get why this bugs you so much.

Not to get all derail-y, but what's your opinion on Oscar Pistorius, the guy with the prosthetic legs who ran in the Olympics this summer? (Not to compare women to people with no legs, but you probably see what I'm getting at.)

 

[bounceswoosh]

Pinto: I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it! Please don't think that disagreement = a desire for you not to share your opinion.

 

[litterbug]

Pinto: I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it! Please don't think that disagreement = a desire for you not to share your opinion.

+100

 

[pinto]

Oh, I just said I wouldn't say anymore, so I didn't. I already said what I think. It doesn't have a point except for LV herself, which I do find interesting (how she would compare), but I don't think the idea of hijacking a WC race to do it is very respectful. What does this change? Nothing. Women have always, for years and years and years, had a place to ski race. This isn't a place where anyone is being discriminated against, there are no points to make or chauvinists to convince. As Tiger Woods said when Annika Sorenstam competed against men 10 years ago, "I think it's great she's playing, but ... it will only be great for women's golf if she plays well," Woods said. "I think if she goes out there and posts two high scores, I think it's going to be more detrimental than it's going to be good."
In my opinion, there is no need for her to take that risk. Everyone knows she is doing it on the easiest course possible. What does this accomplish? Is LV going to switch over to race with the men all the time? Of course not. If I were her coach, I'd make her go win some women's slalom races.
I said this over on epic: I grew up playing against boys because at first there weren't enough girls to make a team. That was the barrier. If you have to play a boys sport because there aren't opportunities to play, then I'm all for it. If it's a sport where speed and strength don't determine who is the best, I'm all for that. Sarah Burke had to compete with boys, and she opened doors; that was awesome. Last week I cheered on my nephews' tennis teammate, a girl playing no 3 singles in the boys high school division, playing there because their school doesn't have enough girls to form a team of their own.
To me, victory is not playing with boys ... it's having enough girls to play with.

 

[pinto]

As for Pistorius ... it's not quite the same, though it is similar. It would be more like a sit skier wanting to compete in the regular WC. I thought Pistorius was awesome, but I also could see how others thought having metal appendages could be an advantage, depending on how they are constructed, used, etc. I just don't know enough about it to have an opinion on those specifics. But he did race and qualify like anyone else, so he did belong on the basis of his times (which LV has not done, by the way).

On the other hand, I have been known to envy the handicapped: (I'm sure that word is not pc, but I'm not up on what to use these days)
https://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12025623/its-better-on-one-leg