Random Observations about Binding Delta/Angle

[MissySki]

I get why they might want to have the demo version and non-demo version with the same ramp angle. We've seen on here how some skiers are thrown off when they demo skis, go and buy the skis and what they assume are they same binding, just without demo adjustability. Too bad though that they aren't changing the regular Squire TCX instead of the other way around.

Agreed, I understand why they are doing it.. but also wish it was in the opposite direction. Sooooo many use Squire demo bindings on women’s demo skis, I wish there were a market to have both options. I imagine many people who are affected by this have no idea what the issue is and just think it’s their skiing or any number of other things. It took a long time for me to sniff this out for myself, and part of that was seeing posts on ski forums from others experiencing these things.

 

[TiffAlt]

I know ski techs don't touch bindings that aren't indemnified, but surely they'll still tune the skis if they don't have to touch the bindings, won't they?

When we were getting ramped up last season as beginner skiers, my son wanted to ski with his friend at a different ski hill than we usually go to. Background: my son took to skiing right away and progressed pretty damned fast in his lessons. Since at that point we were renting on the mountain, none of us had our own skis, though we all had bought beginner boots. The dad of this friend offered to loan him a pair of skis so he didn't have to rent on the other hill. He dropped them off (already set to the right BSL and DIN) and we realized they were pretty old from 2011, but brought them to a local shop to just tune them up so the kids could ski together. Shop refused to touch them.

I had assumed they just would not touch skis with indemnified bindings, but now that I think about it, maybe they just wanted us to buy new skis? We actually did, since my son was there and had his eye on a pair of Rustler 9s and they picked up on that?

 

[contesstant]

When we were getting ramped up last season as beginner skiers, my son wanted to ski with his friend at a different ski hill than we usually go to. Background: my son took to skiing right away and progressed pretty damned fast in his lessons. Since at that point we were renting on the mountain, none of us had our own skis, though we all had bought beginner boots. The dad of this friend offered to loan him a pair of skis so he didn't have to rent on the other hill. He dropped them off (already set to the right BSL and DIN) and we realized they were pretty old from 2011, but brought them to a local shop to just tune them up so the kids could ski together. Shop refused to touch them.

I had assumed they just would not touch skis with indemnified bindings, but now that I think about it, maybe they just wanted us to buy new skis? We actually did, since my son was there and had his eye on a pair of Rustler 9s and they picked up on that?

That's so interesting-- my husband's shop will still tune the skis but won't touch the bindings if they aren't indemnified, like for a remount or test, etc. I wonder if it's a state liability issue depending on where the shop is located.

We get a chuckle out of the person paying $80 for a deluxe tune on a pair of skis that you'd be hard pressed to get $25 for, never mind the safety issues.

 

[contesstant]

For anyone who is wondering, after measuring several bindings during the Big Swap I did, Look SPX are in the +2 range and I think they have been that way for a long time. Their demo/system bindings are the same. I almost put Look system bindings on, but their system bindings are heavy and burly. I do have some SPX 12s ready for the Black Pearl 88s that I will be getting sooner or later. I believe we measured the Salomon Strive 12s as being about +2, but I was not a huge fan of the Strive 14s I had on my Santa Anas last season, not sure why. Might have something to do with a short BSL--they just felt really rigid, which sounds funny because bindings should be rigid, right?! My husband is a big fan of the Strive 14s.

The conclusion I have come to is I do really well with anything +2 to -1. I prefer to stay on the + side just to make it not such a dramatic change if I get on something that is -1. +5 puts me out of balance, but I can adapt now; I just don't like to because it throws off my skiing.

 

[TiffAlt]

That's so interesting-- my husband's shop will still tune the skis but won't touch the bindings if they aren't indemnified, like for a remount or test, etc. I wonder if it's a state liability issue depending on where the shop is located.

We get a chuckle out of the person paying $80 for a deluxe tune on a pair of skis that you'd be hard pressed to get $25 for, never mind the safety issues.

We just wanted them to check if the edges were still sharp, but maybe we weren't clear and thought we wanted a binding check? We were still in our first season, so it's entirely possible we didn't even know how to ask for what we wanted in a clear way.

Son did end up loving the Rustlers. Then he ended up growing 5 inches by the beginning of next ski season. Loved them so much that because they changed them from the season he loved, he didn't want to trade up to new skis more appropriate to his new height. Mid season after he'd grow another inch (with more likely on the way, he's only 14), he was finally convinced to at least demo a few other pairs in different and he was really picky, but he did end up with some Atomic Mavericks. He is still insisting on keeping his old skis as rock skis.

He bought them when he was 5'4, only 2 inches taller than me. They are 162. I would swipe 'em to try, but I think I'd need a remount for my BSL

 

[mustski]

I was too late trying to edit, but also had written..


Hmmmm that is interesting on the binding piece.. I heard it from @mustski originally and also confirmed with Phil on Ski Talk. I sure would love if it at least wasn’t happening next season, maybe it’s gotten pushed back or something.. @SnowHot do you know anything on the timing for the Squire demo bindings changing ramp angles?

Also interesting on the Nordicas.. I don’t think Torin carries Nordica (unfortunately since then it won’t be easy to try on with him) but I will inquire about the boot in general when I speak to him.

It is happening in 2025. The 2025 Secret 96s - available for demo - all have the new Marker Griffin demo on them and they have the +5 delta. I can understand why they are aligning their demo bindings with their regular bindings. Most people purchase the regular binding and only experience the demo binding during a demo. That is how I discovered that I loved a negative delta and began purchasing demo bindings if I bought new skis. Like @contesstant, I like a range between -1 to +2. I also have found the look bindings to have a pretty neutral delta angel though - offhand- I can't remember if it was +1 or +2.

 

[MissySki]

It is happening in 2025. The 2025 Secret 96s - available for demo - all have the new Marker Griffin demo on them and they have the +5 delta. I can understand why they are aligning their demo bindings with their regular bindings. Most people purchase the regular binding and only experience the demo binding during a demo. That is how I discovered that I loved a negative delta and began purchasing demo bindings if I bought new skis. Like @contesstant, I like a range between -1 to +2. I also have found the look bindings to have a pretty neutral delta angel though - offhand- I can't remember if it was +1 or +2.

I demoed the 2025 Secret 96 in February, they had a Squire demo on them.. I have a picture otherwise I wouldn’t recall.. I actually liked them a lot, and didn’t notice an issue overall with binding ramp angle while on them. Would the Squires have been this year’s or next year’s model on all of the 2025 skis?? I have no idea.. I didn’t know to ask since at that point I didn’t realize they were changing. I felt good on the Squires I did ski on multiple skis and didn’t notice a difference, so I am skeptical that they would have been the new ramp angles, but I am very curious now. I was on and off a lot of skis in two days, and wasn’t overly focused on the bindings at the time as some were Squire and some weren’t obviously.

I can tell immediately when clicking into my own Squire demos versus skis I have with older Attacks that there is a difference.. though I can ski them all.

 

[kmb5662]

It is happening in 2025. The 2025 Secret 96s - available for demo - all have the new Marker Griffin demo on them and they have the +5 delta. I can understand why they are aligning their demo bindings with their regular bindings. Most people purchase the regular binding and only experience the demo binding during a demo. That is how I discovered that I loved a negative delta and began purchasing demo bindings if I bought new skis. Like @contesstant, I like a range between -1 to +2. I also have found the look bindings to have a pretty neutral delta angel though - offhand- I can't remember if it was +1 or +2.

I have a pair of Look NX 11 bindings that are +2. Very lightweight and easy to click in/out.

 

[contesstant]

I have a pair of Look NX 11 bindings that are +2. Very lightweight and easy to click in/out.

Yes, Look bindings are still fairly close to neutral. That's why I picked up a pair of SPX 12s for my upcoming purchase

Another factor that I have noticed really bothers me is mount point. A more forward mount ski with a higher delta is not a fun time for me. Might be why I have not gotten along with a lot of Dynastar skis for the past few years. They tend to have a more center mount.

 

[TiffAlt]

all have the new Marker Griffin demo

I think perhaps the names are getting mixed up? Marker Squire and Marker Griffin are different.

 

[mustski]

Would the Squires have been this year’s or next year’s model on all of the 2025 skis?? I have no idea.. I didn’t know to ask since at that point I didn’t realize they were changing. I felt good on the Squires I did ski on multiple skis and didn’t notice a difference, so I am skeptical that they would have been the new ramp angles, but I am very curious now.

I don’t know the answer to that. I just know that the 2025 Secrets that Volkl sent to Tricia and Phil have the new 2025 demo bindings on them.

 

[mustski]

I think perhaps the names are getting mixed up? Marker Squire and Marker Griffin are different.

Yes. The pair I saw had the new Griffin demos. My understanding is that Marker is adapting both the Squire and Griffon demos to have the same delta angles as the non demo bindings of the same names.

 

[TiffAlt]

Yes. The pair I saw had the new Griffin demos. My understanding is that Marker is adapting both the Squire and Griffon demos to have the same delta angles as the non demo bindings of the same names.

Ah ok, my misunderstanding then and still a major bummer

 

[mustski]

Agreed! Truthfully though, the Look bindings at +2 are pretty darn neutral.

 

[WaterGirl]

I love how this thread is paralleling my thought process. Shims on the way from Vermont! yeah!
Looking at other options and was researching the LOOK Pivots, per SkiTalk its 2.5mm difference. I just emailed Look to get a response on the Pivot 12/14 toe/ heel and weight. As much as I love my squires and not wanting to drill new holes, am looking for something going forward that does not involve a lot of moving parts. The Pivot is +/- it's a bit heavier but I think I would like it better than the soon to be no longer available Demo Squire. But oh so boring color choices. 2. lol
Interesting about the Marker with the +5, and I guess the tech side is not privy to the production side?
Its pretty easy to call Marker direct......

 

[WaterGirl]

FWIW LOOK got back to me -

Pivot 12
Toe Height - 16.5 mm
Heel Height - 19 mm
Weight - 2210 g pr


Pivot 14
Toe Height - 16.5 mm
Heel Height - 19 mm
Weight - 2230 g pr

820g Squire (add? 30g for shim?) 1105g for Pivot per pair -- 1/2 lb difference

 

[edelweissmaedl]

FWIW LOOK got back to me -

Pivot 12
Toe Height - 16.5 mm
Heel Height - 19 mm
Weight - 2210 g pr


Pivot 14
Toe Height - 16.5 mm
Heel Height - 19 mm
Weight - 2230 g pr

820g Squire (add? 30g for shim?) 1105g for Pivot per pair -- 1/2 lb difference

I went from a marker squire to a look pivot and have never looked back. I can’t say I don’t notice the difference on my shoulder, but skiing or on the lift I’m not bothered. I have them shimmed 2mm (2x1mm shims).

 

[WaterGirl]

@edelweissmaedl where are you sourcing your shims for the pivots ?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Alpine Ski Shop in Fairfax ordered them from Look for me. https://alpineskishop.com/

 

[Merryalli]

Binding delta refers to the boot angle that is created by the height of the heel vs. the toe of a binding. This is a parameter that is often overlooked and that those of us with smaller boots are particularly sensitive to.

Now that I am in a proper boot setup with the biggest change being a short cuff boot, (but also sized down to a 21.5 even though I measure a 23.5 on a brannock device,) I can say that I am not as sensitive to, or maybe I should say unable to adapt to, bindings with more positive delta than I have been in the past. With that, I will say that I do still prefer bindings that are closer to +1 mm or so, can ski -1 mm fine, but when the parameters get closer to +5, I do start to feel off-kilter. I like to share my experiences with the hopes that I can help someone else on this challenging journey to become a proficient and skilled skier.

My go-to daily ski is a Stockli Nela 88. I have owned this ski for 3 seasons now, and did well on them in a softer junior race boot 2 seasons ago, barely skied them last season in a fairly stout Atomic Redster sti 110 because I could not pressure the tips, and have skied them a ton this season in the Lange RS 110 short cuff. They were mounted with a Salomon Warden 11 non-demo binding, which I measured at +5 delta. After demoing several different skis a week ago, most of which had a Marker Squire demo binding which is approximately -1 mm delta, I realized it was time to revisit the bindings on the Nelas. So, I mounted a pair of Warden 11 demo bindings that are +1 delta, which is 4mm lower in the heel than the non-demo Warden 11s that I have been skiing on for 3 seasons now.

With the +5 mm delta, my tails would wash out. All the time. I had to exaggerate a forward stance to even dream of getting pressure to the front of the ski. I would find myself exiting the turn with a ton of heel pressure, which was exaggerated on steeper terrain (not fun!) I also found that I needed to tighten the power strap almost to tourniquet tightness (I ski with the Atomic Dual Strap, which is elastic.) On my skis with bindings with less delta, I can tighten the power strap to a more "normal" tightness.

Probably the biggest change is I can feel my whole foot working the ski through the turn. I used to feel myself almost teeter totter back and forth from toe to heel, and it was really challenging to get pressure on the ball of my foot. Now it is almost effortless. My turns are rounder and smoother, and I am skiing faster.

Through all of this, I have also come to realize that the torn LCL in my right knee, which happened when I fractured my tibial plateau 9 years ago, is the main cause of the stem I have going into my right turns. I never get a super stable platform on my right leg, so I don't have a solid place to release the ski from. Going to a flatter binding is already helping me work through this more.

How is it that one sport can be so frustrating and exhilarating at the same time?! Also, how many women would benefit from being in a short cuff boot? Brent Amsbury in Park City put me in this setup and said he puts lots of women in it. It has been an absolute game-changer for me.

Thank you for all this information. I have to admit, I love skiing but I have no idea what/how/where to see or check what the delta is for me? Any advice is greatly appreciated!