Random Observations about Binding Delta/Angle

[contesstant]

Binding delta refers to the boot angle that is created by the height of the heel vs. the toe of a binding. This is a parameter that is often overlooked and that those of us with smaller boots are particularly sensitive to.

Now that I am in a proper boot setup with the biggest change being a short cuff boot, (but also sized down to a 21.5 even though I measure a 23.5 on a brannock device,) I can say that I am not as sensitive to, or maybe I should say unable to adapt to, bindings with more positive delta than I have been in the past. With that, I will say that I do still prefer bindings that are closer to +1 mm or so, can ski -1 mm fine, but when the parameters get closer to +5, I do start to feel off-kilter. I like to share my experiences with the hopes that I can help someone else on this challenging journey to become a proficient and skilled skier.

My go-to daily ski is a Stockli Nela 88. I have owned this ski for 3 seasons now, and did well on them in a softer junior race boot 2 seasons ago, barely skied them last season in a fairly stout Atomic Redster sti 110 because I could not pressure the tips, and have skied them a ton this season in the Lange RS 110 short cuff. They were mounted with a Salomon Warden 11 non-demo binding, which I measured at +5 delta. After demoing several different skis a week ago, most of which had a Marker Squire demo binding which is approximately -1 mm delta, I realized it was time to revisit the bindings on the Nelas. So, I mounted a pair of Warden 11 demo bindings that are +1 delta, which is 4mm lower in the heel than the non-demo Warden 11s that I have been skiing on for 3 seasons now.

With the +5 mm delta, my tails would wash out. All the time. I had to exaggerate a forward stance to even dream of getting pressure to the front of the ski. I would find myself exiting the turn with a ton of heel pressure, which was exaggerated on steeper terrain (not fun!) I also found that I needed to tighten the power strap almost to tourniquet tightness (I ski with the Atomic Dual Strap, which is elastic.) On my skis with bindings with less delta, I can tighten the power strap to a more "normal" tightness.

Probably the biggest change is I can feel my whole foot working the ski through the turn. I used to feel myself almost teeter totter back and forth from toe to heel, and it was really challenging to get pressure on the ball of my foot. Now it is almost effortless. My turns are rounder and smoother, and I am skiing faster.

Through all of this, I have also come to realize that the torn LCL in my right knee, which happened when I fractured my tibial plateau 9 years ago, is the main cause of the stem I have going into my right turns. I never get a super stable platform on my right leg, so I don't have a solid place to release the ski from. Going to a flatter binding is already helping me work through this more.

How is it that one sport can be so frustrating and exhilarating at the same time?! Also, how many women would benefit from being in a short cuff boot? Brent Amsbury in Park City put me in this setup and said he puts lots of women in it. It has been an absolute game-changer for me.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Yeah, binding delta and the way it interacts with different boots and affects everyone differently is such a pain in the neck! For the last few years in my old boots I hated being on my Sheeva 9s with Warden 11 bindings, now with new boots I love the set up ----but hate my Ripsticks now with Attack 12s. I am pitched so far forward on those I simultaneously have my calfs constantly stretched yet am sitting back to counter balance. Good news is I went to a boot fitter yesterday (the one @MissySki uses) for a separate issue and we got talking about binding delta and he said it would be no problem to shim my Attacks--while other shops have given me a hard time about doing so for bindings in the past. He also mentioned at the Lange RS (though not sure if he had the short cuff one in mind or not) as a possible boot for me since we were also speaking about different low volume boots. There are certainly so many variables that seem to affect how comfortable some of are on specific set ups. I wish it was easier!

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Thanks for sharing your observations. I too can relate to the teeter totter affect, which for me overstretched my calves like @NewEnglandSkier mentions.

I did another demo day on some Stockli's on my 5th day of my Taos Ski Week this year. For me it was only a 2mm drop difference from my shimmed skis, but I could instantly tell I lost shin pressure and my calves hinted at being overworked that night. These were things Greg Hoffmann out at Snowshoe pointed out to me just last season. I wish I had understood this better a few years earlier. My calves would have me limping post ski day and I was frustrated and clueless to the cause for a few years, despite trying to google myself the answer to the mystery.

 

[contesstant]

I just wish there was some consistency across the board when it comes to delta, but there isn't. Even from year to year with one manufacturer, things change. I'd ski a Warden 11 demo from here on out if I could, but they don't make them anymore! I just lucked out into a pair that the shop my husband works at had sitting on the shelf. (Oh, the grumbling as we pulled binding after binding off the shelf and measured with calipers )

To me perhaps the most interesting factor is the shorter cuff boot. As most of you know, I have been in a different boot setup pretty much every season since 2010. The magic ticket was the short cuff. (Well, and I do like how the dual core boots like the Lange's have feel and flex.)

 

[MissySki]

Yeah, binding delta and the way it interacts with different boots and affects everyone differently is such a pain in the neck! For the last few years in my old boots I hated being on my Sheeva 9s with Warden 11 bindings, now with new boots I love the set up ----but hate my Ripsticks now with Attack 12s. I am pitched so far forward on those I simultaneously have my calfs constantly stretched yet am sitting back to counter balance. Good news is I went to a boot fitter yesterday (the one @MissySki uses) for a separate issue and we got talking about binding delta and he said it would be no problem to shim my Attacks--while other shops have given me a hard time about doing so for bindings in the past. He also mentioned at the Lange RS (though not sure if he had the short cuff one in mind or not) as a possible boot for me since we were also speaking about different low volume boots. There are certainly so many variables that seem to affect how comfortable some of are on specific set ups. I wish it was easier!

Ohh you went to see Torin?? Awesome!

 

[kmb5662]

I think many race bindings out there have adjustable binding deltas? I never raced so maybe someone that has can clarify but I feel like I've heard that somewhere. I am not sure why more bindings don't have this as an option, must be a cost thing? At the very least they should at least make it well known to the buyers what the delta is for each binding.

I'm also pretty sensitive to binding delta and find -1 to +2 to work best for me. I have a pair of really old Attack 11s with a crazy high delta on my old Sheevas and while I loved those skis overall, I always found them the most fatiguing and like my skiing just wasn't as good as it was on my other skis. I think the binding delta is likely to blame.


...and I am definitely interested in trying out a pair of boots with a shorter cuff one of these days. If nothing else I think they would be more comfortable on my short little legs!

 

[MissySki]

I just wish there was some consistency across the board when it comes to delta, but there isn't. Even from year to year with one manufacturer, things change. I'd ski a Warden 11 demo from here on out if I could, but they don't make them anymore! I just lucked out into a pair that the shop my husband works at had sitting on the shelf. (Oh, the grumbling as we pulled binding after binding off the shelf and measured with calipers )

To me perhaps the most interesting factor is the shorter cuff boot. As most of you know, I have been in a different boot setup pretty much every season since 2010. The magic ticket was the short cuff. (Well, and I do like how the dual core boots like the Lange's have feel and flex.)

This is how I feel about the Squire demo that is now going to have a higher positive ramp angle next season instead of the -1.5 it has that works so well for me now. I love that darn binding.

I am curious, how much shorter are your boots? Is it definitely the short cuff or that it’s shorter also because you went down a size too? I ask because I was previously in a Lange short cuff but they are actually no shorter than my Technicas now that aren’t labeled as short cuff. I’ve actually been told due to my leg anatomy that I would benefit more from a taller shell.. but I apparently can’t get that in a women’s boot and appropriate men’s boots don’t come in my size. Of course.. lol

 

[mustski]

I have joined the delta sensitive group since I sized down to a 23 from a 24. It’s the reason I sold my Stormriders. I no longer felt stable on them ad chose to sell rather than adjust..I just bought a pair if demo Squires for my new skis . I gave found the Look bindings to be pretty good but -DAMN- I Iove that negative delta !

I have totally experienced that sense of being unable to pressure the tip if the ski. I’m able to compensate and adjust… but, as huge as the difference was in a 23 boot. I can only imagine the difference in a 21 boot!

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I think many race bindings out there have adjustable binding deltas?

I was told that the race bindings all have shims readily available and the screws that are the proper length to accommodate the shims. So in my case they would use parts from a Head race binding to shim up my Tyrolia Attacks. And was told the same thing could be done with Marker Squires (not using Head parts) but using parts from Marker race bindings.

Ohh you went to see Torin?? Awesome!

Yes, I had questions about my alignment and having a weird pain on the side of my heel. So then the conversation came around to delta. It was nice because he didn't think I was crazy to notice differences in binding delta and seemed open to trying to address it.

 

[contesstant]

This is how I feel about the Squire demo that is now going to have a higher positive ramp angle next season instead of the -1.5 it has that works so well for me now. I love that darn binding.

I am curious, how much shorter are your boots? Is it definitely the short cuff or that it’s shorter also because you went down a size too? I ask because I was previously in a Lange short cuff but they are actually no shorter than my Technicas now that aren’t labeled as short cuff. I’ve actually been told due to my leg anatomy that I would benefit more from a taller shell.. but I apparently can’t get that in a women’s boot and appropriate men’s boots don’t come in my size. Of course.. lol

They are quite a bit shorter. I’ll get some pictures if I can remember. The first time I skied them, it was rather unsettling. I talked to a gal who had been put in the same boot (and subsequently passed her L3) and she told me to give it time. I got used to them quickly. Such an improvement.

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Ohh you went to see Torin?? Awesome!

Totem pole Torin? He shimmed mine too.

 

[TiffAlt]

I have joined the delta sensitive group since I sized down to a 23 from a 24...I just bought a pair if demo Squires for my new skis .

This is exactly my story. I went from 24 to 23 and suddenly HATED my bindings, I'm now on Marker Squire demos that are so much better.

This is how I feel about the Squire demo that is now going to have a higher positive ramp angle next season instead of the -1.5 it has that works so well for me now. I love that darn binding.

I seriously panicked when I heard that. I am keeping my bindings as long as shops will still accept my skis, but what the hell happens after? Guess I will be figuring out how to tune my own skis...

 

[MissySki]

Yes, I had questions about my alignment and having a weird pain on the side of my heel. So then the conversation came around to delta. It was nice because he didn't think I was crazy to notice differences in binding delta and seemed open to trying to address it.

Absolutely, he is a great listener and always willing to think outside of the box and try things to address issues that arise.

Totem pole Torin? He shimmed mine too.

The one and only . I’ve been going to see him for around a decade now, he’s the best.

 

[diymom]

I am keeping my bindings as long as shops will still accept my skis, but what the hell happens after? Guess I will be figuring out how to tune my own skis...

I know ski techs don't touch bindings that aren't indemnified, but surely they'll still tune the skis if they don't have to touch the bindings, won't they?

 

[MissySki]

This is exactly my story. I went from 24 to 23 and suddenly HATED my bindings, I'm now on Marker Squire demos that are so much better.


I seriously panicked when I heard that. I am keeping my bindings as long as shops will still accept my skis, but what the hell happens after? Guess I will be figuring out how to tune my own skis...

I’m going to buy one or two to stash.. but I think besides that it’ll be having others that are close shimmed to the appropriate ramp angle. Definitely frustrating that there will be no options that just come this way standard..

 

[diymom]

I get why they might want to have the demo version and non-demo version with the same ramp angle. We've seen on here how some skiers are thrown off when they demo skis, go and buy the skis and what they assume are they same binding, just without demo adjustability. Too bad though that they aren't changing the regular Squire TCX instead of the other way around.

 

[WaterGirl]

How Apropos ;) I too have been in contact w/ @MissySki 's boot fitter and will have some shims comming from him.
Thank you @MissySki !!!!!

I will follow up w / this thread when I have more time, but I did talk to Marker on Friday and they are not changing the demo binding for next year - at least according to the person I spoke to, with whom I also discussed shimming the squire. I'm not sure where that rumor started? But if its a concern, I would call Marker and talk to the marketing side, I was talking to the tech side.

Whew. I mounted the Marker Alpinist on my AT ski, wow. with new boots that support me and a neutral stance, I did a "hill and dale" tour yesterday so not much skiing but I can tell I wont be teter-totering and have screaming quads with this set up! I was skiing the old binding set up laterally b/c I could never get forward, even after shimming my dynafits with a 6mm shim.

FWIW for taller cuff needs, I feel that the Nordica Promachine is taller, and it comes in a 130 in a true 22. Thats whats been working for me.

 

[MissySki]

How Apropos ;) I too have been in contact w/ @MissySki 's boot fitter and will have some shims comming from him.
Thank you @MissySki !!!!!

I will follow up w / this thread when I have more time, but I did talk to Marker on Friday and they are not changing the demo binding for next year - at least according to the person I spoke to, with whom I also discussed shimming the squire. I'm not sure where that rumor started? But if its a concern, I would call Marker and talk to the marketing side, I was talking to the tech side.

Whew. I mounted the Marker Alpinist on my AT ski, wow. with new boots that support me and a neutral stance, I did a "hill and dale" tour yesterday so not much skiing but I can tell I wont be teter-totering and have screaming quads with this set up! I was skiing the old binding set up laterally b/c I could never get forward, even after shimming my dynafits with a 6mm shim.

FWIW for taller cuff needs, I feel that the Nordica Promachine is taller, and it comes in a 130 in a true 22. Thats whats been working for me.

Ohh wonderful, so glad to help connect you!

 

[contesstant]

I know ski techs don't touch bindings that aren't indemnified, but surely they'll still tune the skis if they don't have to touch the bindings, won't they?

Yes, they’ll still tune the skis. But if the tech has the time and inclination, they might talk to you about the non-indemnified bindings.

 

[MissySki]

I was too late trying to edit, but also had written..


Hmmmm that is interesting on the binding piece.. I heard it from @mustski originally and also confirmed with Phil on Ski Talk. I sure would love if it at least wasn’t happening next season, maybe it’s gotten pushed back or something.. @SnowHot do you know anything on the timing for the Squire demo bindings changing ramp angles?

Also interesting on the Nordicas.. I don’t think Torin carries Nordica (unfortunately since then it won’t be easy to try on with him) but I will inquire about the boot in general when I speak to him.