Quad fatigue on mellow slopes

[Albertan ski girl]

I had this problem with my old skis/bindings setup. It turned out it was the combination of heel lift+ramp angle was too steep and was wearing me out really early. I though it was me - that I had to build up my "ski leg" muscles. Then I started demoing skis when I was ready for an upgrade ad realizes i wasn't so tired anymore. Bindings!

 

[Christy]

I had this problem with my old skis/bindings setup. It turned out it was the combination of heel lift+ramp angle was too steep and was wearing me out really early. I though it was me - that I had to build up my "ski leg" muscles. Then I started demoing skis when I was ready for an upgrade ad realizes i wasn't so tired anymore. Bindings!

So are you now with flat bindings and no heel lift?

 

[Christy]

Similar stats as you, a little bigger @ 5'6/118. Ditto the 166. How: because there is considerable tip rocker on the Black Pearl. In order to engage the tips, a lot of forward pressure on the tips is required. I don’t think it’s the actual length of the ski that’s a problem - but the huge tip rocker is.

I was going to mention this before things got uber-technical with stance discussion. Your idea of switching up skis is a good one. Next up, if possible/feasible, would be to try your old boots with new skis. Process of elimination?

I was skiing tough conditions (very heavy snow, slick where groomed, mashed and refrozen where not), and the amount of forward pressure I had to exert on the skis to maintain tip contact - and in a new, more upright boot cuff - created intense shin burn and pain, the likes of which I haven’t felt in decades. It’s 10 days later, and some of the muscles around one shin are STILL sore.

Conditions were nowhere near this tough the next time out, but I was back in old (still fairly new) boots and old skis. No issues, not like this. Next up for me is new boots/old skis.

Very interesting. Didn't you like your BPs last season?

Luckily my shins didn't get beat up, but I was obsessed with staying forward these last few days. Making wine, feet underneath me, etc, but it never quite seemed like enough.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

So are you now with flat bindings and no heel lift?

Now I have flat bindings and a slight heel lift. It took some adjusting of the heel lift because I still needed to stop it from moving around in my boot. My new heel lift is more supportive around my heel than underneath it.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Very interesting. Didn't you like your BPs last season?

Luckily my shins didn't get beat up, but I was obsessed with staying forward these last few days. Making wine, feet underneath me, etc, but it never quite seemed like enough.

Very much, in soft, packed powder snow conditions (which is all we had last spring!). Wearing my old (not that old) boots. Much tougher snow and that upright cuff, even with a softened tongue (3 piece shell) made for a miserable day. Ouch. Consider that, if the Black Pearl is 30% rocker, what the actual contact edge length is on a 166. Easy math. Not very long. I just could not get forward comfortably enough.

 

[snow addict]

The best thing you can do is to have an instructor watch you ski and then describe to him/her your sensations and listen to their observations. I wouldn't start fiddling with equipment until then as it might not be a solution. Sometimes a simple drill can be enough or there might be indeed something else. After all you don't get this issue on steeper slopes. There is lot of talk about ramp angle but tbh I skied and ski now on different skis with different bindings (pivots have about 8mm ramp I think) and I see no difference in how my quads (don't) feel. I only get sore calves after the first weekend of the season and that's about it and regardless on which skis I happen to ski. After that i am fine. I don't do pre-season work outs, just some exercises for hamstrings to strengthen the muscles supporting the knees and little work on balance. In chalky packed powder BPs are amazing. Not so much on icy hard pack but still skiable.

 

[Christy]

I wouldn't start fiddling with equipment until then as it might not be a solution.

Given that this didn't happen until I got this current pair of skis and boots, I'm pretty sure it will be a solution.

I do take lessons and couldn't have learned to ski/improve without them. However, I've had some experiences that have let me know that I need to get my equipment figured out first. After I got my first pair of boots I had horrible quad fatigue--like, after one-half of a run I was dying. I spend a ton of money on lessons, thinking I just needed to improve (even though this hadn't happened in rental boots). After 2+ years of no resolution I read on Epicski about boots with too much forward lean, so out of desperation I went and bought a different pair of boots, making sure they didn't have much forward lean. Voila. Problem solved. Instantly. No instructor ever had mentioned anything about my boots. In fact I had one who told me flat out that equipment doesn't matter.

My first pair of skis were also problematic. They were too short, and I fell all the time. No instructor ever saw the skis as a problem. Then, same as my boots--I got longer skis, I stopped falling all the time.

There is lot of talk about ramp angle but tbh I skied and ski now on different skis with different bindings (pivots have about 8mm ramp I think) and I see no difference in how my quads (don't) feel.

That's great, and you're undoubtedly a better skier than I am, but it clearly matters for some of us. People use heel lifts, or toe lifts, or none of these, because ramp does matter for some of us.

 

[Skisailor]

So @Christy . . . did the toe lifts help at all?

How is the process of elimination experimentation going ?

 

[Christy]

So @Christy . . . did the toe lifts help at all?

How is the process of elimination experimentation going ?

I've been in Sun Valley so I only had the stuff I brought. Now that I'm home, next time I'll go out with my beloved old skis and see what happens! If I still feel off, I'll move to the boots...

 

[contesstant]

Christy, I remember when I went from the Lotta Luv's to the Black Pearls and felt instant quad relief, then went from one pair of boots to a new pair on the Black Pearls and while my quads were no worse for the wear, I suddenly had a horrible time skiing the Black Pearls! I STILL don't like skiing them anymore. I feel like I have to work so hard to engage the tips, and if I don't, they get squirrely on me. Are your new boots stiffer, by chance?

So, your upcoming experiment is a good idea. I hope you figure it out!

 

[MissySki]

That's great, and you're undoubtedly a better skier than I am, but it clearly matters for some of us. People use heel lifts, or toe lifts, or none of these, because ramp does matter for some of us.

I don't think it matters at all how good of a skier you are, sometimes it's all anatomy and how YOURS interacts with your stuff. I never had this issue either until my current boots and then suddenly I just could not get into an alignment that didn't kill my quads on my own (even standing in line hurt). Even after an entire seasonal adult program where my instructor assured me time and again that my stance looked good, my legs hurt so much after almost no skiing. This year I got toe lifts on the same boots and bam it's night and day with the quad fatigue!

I suffered for two years with the mantra that it must be me and not my gear, or I just need to get in better shape etc etc etc. I'm glad you are experimenting now to diagnose the issue and not suffering in silence! I'm still annoyed that I wasted so much time in pain that I didn't need to. Is it always the gear? Of course not, but why not rule it out since the issue started when you got new things?

Goodluck, hope you find a solution asap!

 

[Christy]

Christy, I remember when I went from the Lotta Luv's to the Black Pearls and felt instant quad relief, then went from one pair of boots to a new pair on the Black Pearls and while my quads were no worse for the wear, I suddenly had a horrible time skiing the Black Pearls! I STILL don't like skiing them anymore. I feel like I have to work so hard to engage the tips, and if I don't, they get squirrely on me. Are your new boots stiffer, by chance?

So, your upcoming experiment is a good idea. I hope you figure it out!

Oh no!! You loved the BPs! So you weren't able to make a boot adjustment that worked with them? What are you going to do, or have you already moved on?

My new boots are not stiffer; in fact they should be easier to flex than my last, since my last were the Dalbello Kryzma which were tall and had the stiffest Intuition liner available. I had a hard time making wine in those boots. My new ones are the Chakra and it's much easier for me to keep my shins pressed against them.

 

[Christy]

I'm still annoyed that I wasted so much time in pain that I didn't need to.

I kind of want to cry when I think about my boot issues back then. I was a beginner and didn't know enough to know it wasn't me. I spent so much on private lessons. I'd probably be 2 years ahead in my skiing if I hadn't had those boots.

 

[contesstant]

Oh no!! You loved the BPs! So you weren't able to make a boot adjustment that worked with them? What are you going to do, or have you already moved on?

My new boots are not stiffer; in fact they should be easier to flex than my last, since my last were the Dalbello Kryzma which were tall and had the stiffest Intuition liner available. I had a hard time making wine in those boots. My new ones are the Chakra and it's much easier for me to keep my shins pressed against them.

I still have the BP's but have picked up some Sambas (last season, love them!) and some Salomon Bamboos, which are also a ton of fun and interestingly don't require me to drive the tips as much. Even the Sambas prefer a forward stance, but they seem to pair up much better with my stiffer boots. I did get the boots softened so will probably drag the BP's out again to test them but only on a softer snow day. I got to where I loathed them on any hard pack. I used to love them on hard pack. And yes, they've been tuned!

 

[litterbug]

@contesstant, could the issue be where the BPs are mounted? If you mounted them forward or back on the BPs and not on the Sambas or Bamboos, or vice versa, your new boots might make the new skis work but not the old...? The only way to be sure would be to demo them in different positions. Just a thought.

 

[contesstant]

@contesstant, could the issue be where the BPs are mounted? If you mounted them forward or back on the BPs and not on the Sambas or Bamboos, or vice versa, your new boots might make the new skis work but not the old...? The only way to be sure would be to demo them in different positions. Just a thought.

That's a valid question and since they are on Marker Squire demo bindings would be super easy to fiddle with. As of now, they are all mounted on center (OK, I need to check that myself, who really knows!)

When we skied at Snowbasin for Diva West last year I was NOT skiing nearly as well as I was the year prior. Same skis (BP's), new boots.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

@Christy - you can surely see at this point that you’re hardly alone in the “issues” department - and it’s irrespective of years of skiing or experience. It just....happens.

I’ve now apparently injured some soft tissue adjacent to my left shin - a result of a too-stiff (not too upright, it turns out) boot cuff and having to exert too much forward pressure to engage tips of Black Pearls. It was TEN days ago, I’ve since worn my old (still new-ish) boots, used different skis, with slightly better results. But the damage is done.

Not sure what my next step is. And I’ve been skiing for 40*FORTY years so have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn’t. DH & I have put our heads together for various levels of experimentation....TBD....in the meantime, I am out with injury.

 

[snow addict]

Given that this didn't happen until I got this current pair of skis and boots, I'm pretty sure it will be a solution.

I do take lessons and couldn't have learned to ski/improve without them. However, I've had some experiences that have let me know that I need to get my equipment figured out first. After I got my first pair of boots I had horrible quad fatigue--like, after one-half of a run I was dying. I spend a ton of money on lessons, thinking I just needed to improve (even though this hadn't happened in rental boots). After 2+ years of no resolution I read on Epicski about boots with too much forward lean, so out of desperation I went and bought a different pair of boots, making sure they didn't have much forward lean. Voila. Problem solved. Instantly. No instructor ever had mentioned anything about my boots. In fact I had one who told me flat out that equipment doesn't matter.

My first pair of skis were also problematic. They were too short, and I fell all the time. No instructor ever saw the skis as a problem. Then, same as my boots--I got longer skis, I stopped falling all the time.



That's great, and you're undoubtedly a better skier than I am, but it clearly matters for some of us. People use heel lifts, or toe lifts, or none of these, because ramp does matter for some of us.

It's just confusing that your problem seems to only appear on certain type of terrain. Had boots causing me all sort of aches to the point of tears, burning quads was the least of concerns as I was opting for burn in quads agains agony in insteps but it didn't matter where I skied and on which skis. I would think that if something doesn't work it just doesn't, but when it works "part time" it's strange. There are also ways to check this fore/aft thing without experimenting with equipment - I am generally paranoid of making things worse before knowing what causes the problem, I even mount as recommended only

 

[MaineSkiLady]

It's just confusing that your problem seems to only appear on certain type of terrain...I would think that if something doesn't work it just doesn't, but when it works "part time" it's strange.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree - mainly because I’ve experienced similar to @Christy, as mentioned in an earlier post I made on this thread, re: static vs. dynamic muscle engagement. (Example: the difference between doing wall-sits and squats.)

I also agree with her regarding those particular skis, having had an identical issue barely a week and a half ago, re: engaging tips and forward pressure required to do so.

Ultimately, there are likely several issues that will required careful pulling apart to isolate. As someone who currently is in a similar boat, I totally understand this conundrum.

 

[Christy]

I’ve now apparently injured some soft tissue adjacent to my left shin - a result of a too-stiff (not too upright, it turns out) boot cuff and having to exert too much forward pressure to engage tips of Black Pearls.

Ugh. Sorry to hear that.

@contesstant, could the issue be where the BPs are mounted?

I was wondering about this as well. I know ZERO about binding mounting and when EVO asked me where I wanted the bindings, I just said factory rec. How do people know when they prefer differently? And how in the world would anyone know when it comes to new bindings and new skis? I wouldn't really think about doing this unless I felt like I'd exhausted every other option and somehow I knew it would help, but I'm curious about it in general.