Overcrowding at Epic and Ikon resorts

[Belgiangirl]

I can only speak for Mount Snow; I had friends in town from Jersey so we went out at 7:30 am and the lines were already long. We left by 11, and I was told the line times were over an hour and a half. No thank you.

Woah. I've been very interested in/jealous about the passes you guys have in the US, as it's very uncommon in Europe to have multiple resorts on one pass. This sheds an interesting new light on the whole concept for me personally. Lift lines over 1,5hr? Calling it a day at 11 because crowds? Whaaat? What are normal operating times in the States?

As a comparison: line times were 20-30 minutes at most during the week of New Year's in 3 Vallées in France. Slopes were already so crowded, can't imagine even more people and longer lines... I already skipped the two last days of skiing on that trip because I wasn't enjoying myself.

The concept of being able to ski multiple resorts on one pass is very appealing to me, but not if it leads to (permanent) overcrowding.

 

[SallyCat]

The concept of being able to ski multiple resorts on one pass is very appealing to me, but not if it leads to (permanent) overcrowding.

It also leads to the skyrocketing of day pass prices, which hammers new snowsports participants with an unsustainable cost-to-participate. The lines may get shorter as fewer people can find a way into snowsports for themselves and their kids.

 

[MissySki]

Woah. I've been very interested in/jealous about the passes you guys have in the US, as it's very uncommon in Europe to have multiple resorts on one pass. This sheds an interesting new light on the whole concept for me personally. Lift lines over 1,5hr? Calling it a day at 11 because crowds? Whaaat? What are normal operating times in the States?

As a comparison: line times were 20-30 minutes at most during the week of New Year's in 3 Vallées in France. Slopes were already so crowded, can't imagine even more people and longer lines... I already skipped the two last days of skiing on that trip because I wasn't enjoying myself.

The concept of being able to ski multiple resorts on one pass is very appealing to me, but not if it leads to (permanent) overcrowding.

I’ve NEVER and would NEVER stand in line for 1.5 hours at a ski resort. This is the exception, not the rule imo.

 

[marzNC]

Woah. I've been very interested in/jealous about the passes you guys have in the US, as it's very uncommon in Europe to have multiple resorts on one pass. This sheds an interesting new light on the whole concept for me personally. Lift lines over 1,5hr? Calling it a day at 11 because crowds? Whaaat? What are normal operating times in the States?

It's best to pay attention when reading about long lift lines to be clear on what type of day is being discussed. A Saturday of a holiday weekend that is driving distance from a large metropolitan is going to be the worst case scenario. No one is likely to fly from Europe to ski anywhere in New England, which is where Okemo and Stowe are located. If they did, it would be a day or two midweek as part of a longer trip to visit New England (Boston, New York, Vermont) in general.

What are normal operating times in the States?

Depends on the region. For an extreme example there is night skiing in the southeast, Mid-Atlantic, and midwest. In the Rockies lifts are usually open 9:00am-4:00pm. On weekends in the mid-Altantic (PA, VA, WV) there are places that open up to an hour early on weekends for passholders only.

I just skied on a holiday weekend at Grand Targhee, an hour from Jackson Hole (on MCP/Ikon) and 4 hours drive from SLC in Utah. Lift tickets are $90 even with no advanced purchase. Never waited more than 5 min on a powder day, Sunday of a holiday weekend. Targhee has 2600 acres, almost all lift-served. However, people don't go to Targhee for groomers.

 

[Jilly]

Well marzNC, I beg to differ. We have a large group of Brits in at Tremblant and Mont Ste. Anne these 2 weeks. Those 2 places are promoted over in Britain and attract a lot of customers. Tremblant runs a Ski/Ride la Gap for Gap year students from Britain.

But Tremblant didn't cancel their regular snow school programs. A lot of the other places do cancel these to free up instructors for guests. That was causing a lot of problems at the snow school entrances and Express pass entrances. Add in the volume of people in the corral.....nuts.

And Saturdays are usually very busy. As Tremblant is close to 2 major cities. That point I agree with.

But I will still place blame on the IKON pass. Along with the exchange rate, there were a lot of Americans around. Also a lot of Toronto/Blue Mountain people as they could ski free.

@Belgiangirl - this is something new for Canada. There were some local area passes....set up so you could access the ones within a driving radius. Like Big 3 in Banff or a similar one in the Eastern Townships. But not ski so many resorts on one pass.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

No one is likely to fly from Europe to ski anywhere in New England...

I'll agree with @Jilly, re: Europeans coming to New England. Every April, at both Sugarloaf and Sunday River, large groups of school kids from UK come out. It's always a call/plea at both resorts for extra instructors.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Killington also has a couple weeks when British school groups come over--I seem to recall it's April or maybe end of March

 

[JessIsTryingToSki]

It will be interesting to see what happens at Snowbasin next year. Personally, I don't think we'll see much increased traffic the first year. Snowbasin has always been regarded as "out of the way" and I don't think the Epic Pass is going to change that. I think places like Solitude are seeing more of an impact because it's so close to SLC.

As a tangent question - of the resorts that everyone has discussed, how many of them have on-site accommodations?

 

[rhymeandreason]

PCMR actually seemed a touch less crowded than usual for Christmas and Presidents’ Day. It doesn’t seem likely since hotel occupancy was on par with last year. I think it is because more terrain was open this year, which spread everyone out, especially over Christmas.

I am definitely in the minority because I like to see a good crowd at the resort. It’s not that I like to ski in a crowd, but I love to see lots of people enjoying the day on the mountain. Sometimes I don’t understand the rationale of skiers who want to grow the sport and then complain that there are too many beginners on the mountain. And I’m definitely in the minority because I think overall, Vail has done a good job at PCMR. They upgraded a ton of lifts, finally added a safety bar to town lift, modernized lodges, built a superb beginner area at canyons, which was sorely lacking, and helped the town through a terrible snow season last year.

Skiing is not just for 20+ days per season enthusiasts- it’s also for families who are putting in a sizable investment for a sport that they may not enjoy. It’s for people who ski four days a year and want to have the whole experience of a big name resort. I love that PCMR is overly popular with families and beginners, because many of our friends who join us are exactly that.

 

[snowski/swimmouse]

My Okemo pass is weekday only, but Friday's have gotten to be short days as they turn into weekend crowds. I'm scared to death of what this pass may cost for next year as Vail Resorts don't take into account my much lower income state of South Carolina. I pay $40/night and ski free in North Carolina.....

 

[dloveski]

I wonder what will happen next season? Given that this is the first season for Ikon, certainly plenty of people like me who are curious to check out Deer Valley as part of a trip to SLC.

How long has the new Summit lift been around? Always takes a year or two before more people discover major upgrades if they aren't regulars at a given mountain.

I think 2015 for Summit at Solitude. they changed the footprint and took off a part of the mountain at top and made a freeway to the base (huge cat track) eliminating the need to go through the Honeycomb gates or ride the lame Sunrise lift to Summit. Modernization; more traffic on mountain.

Its new base is much lower on the mountain, which eliminates the need to take the Sunrise triple. This means you can get to the goods, well, faster. It makes laps into Honeycomb Canyon that much easier

 

[MissySki]

Killington also has a couple weeks when British school groups come over--I seem to recall it's April or maybe end of March

At Pico yesterday we noticed a large class of British teenaged girls. We happened to be lapping a lift with their group, and heard the accents. Not sure it went with any particular vacation or not.

PCMR actually seemed a touch less crowded than usual for Christmas and Presidents’ Day. It doesn’t seem likely since hotel occupancy was on par with last year. I think it is because more terrain was open this year, which spread everyone out, especially over Christmas.

I am definitely in the minority because I like to see a good crowd at the resort. It’s not that I like to ski in a crowd, but I love to see lots of people enjoying the day on the mountain. Sometimes I don’t understand the rationale of skiers who want to grow the sport and then complain that there are too many beginners on the mountain. And I’m definitely in the minority because I think overall, Vail has done a good job at PCMR. They upgraded a ton of lifts, finally added a safety bar to town lift, modernized lodges, built a superb beginner area at canyons, which was sorely lacking, and helped the town through a terrible snow season last year.

Skiing is not just for 20+ days per season enthusiasts- it’s also for families who are putting in a sizable investment for a sport that they may not enjoy. It’s for people who ski four days a year and want to have the whole experience of a big name resort. I love that PCMR is overly popular with families and beginners, because many of our friends who join us are exactly that.

Good points! I also find it funny that people want ski resorts to do well so they can keep going to them, want them to be able to maintain and upgrade amenities, and to try to find ways to get more people involved in the sport.. as long as said people aren’t actually at the resort they frequent. Not in my back yard! Can’t always have your cake and eat it too with this. Resorts can’t stay afloat on weekday visitor levels, especially at non “destination resort” type areas like New England has.

There is also choosing the resort you frequent based on these factors. If you absolutely hate crowds, ski at a chronically crowded ski area, and then are exasperated with the crowds.. well I think you’re doing it wrong. Choose a different mountain that better reflects your ideals unless you are lucky enough to ski weekdays because then you’re pretty lucky as is and the crowds aren’t really a thing anyway outside of a few holiday weeks. In New England in particular we have many resorts within close proximity to eachother, and it’s pretty obvious exactly which are overrun and which aren’t on weekends..

 

[rhymeandreason]

@mustski - interesting, did Alterra release their numbers on Ikon passes? I haven't seen that 75% base pass figure before. It makes sense because Ikon has essentially replaced passes for several resorts like mammoth, winter park and stratton.

I've been hearing the opposite about the holiday blackout dates. 75% of Ikon passes sold were base passes and blacked out for Christmas/New Year's weeks, MLK, Presidents' Weekend. Local Mammoth folks reported much smaller crowds over the Christmas season than usual. At BBMR, it's hard to tell. It's always been a zoo on holidays and Mammoth really screwed it up when they bought us out and stopped limiting ticket sales. I don't notice anything different under Ikon management as far as crowds go. We skied this morning for a nice powder morning and it was good until 11:00. The crowds started to hit then so we left.

 

[Christy]

In terms of wanting to have our cake and eat it too...I suspect those of us that are complaining most about the multi resort passes are those of us that live in metro areas (Seattle, SLC, Denver...) where our nearby ski areas were doing well already, we didn't have any complaints before in terms of needed infrastructure upgrades, and they already were as crowded as we'd want to see them. It already felt like our areas were bursting at the seams (if you aren't at Stevens Pass by 10 on a weekend, there's no parking left and you are out of luck), and now our areas are on Epic and Ikon? I just can't imagine any benefit. And we don't have other options--mom and pop places or smaller places.

I also haven't seen any particular animosity toward beginners or families here. What I do see is a wariness of people that don't ski well but think they do, and you see them out of control or overterrained. For example I am seeing so many more of these folks at places like Sun Valley since they became part of a pass system.

 

[MilkyWookiee]

My Okemo pass is weekday only, but Friday's have gotten to be short days as they turn into weekend crowds. I'm scared to death of what this pass may cost for next year as Vail Resorts don't take into account my much lower income state of South Carolina. I pay $40/night and ski free in North Carolina.....

What did the weekday pass cost? As far as I am aware, they are not offering them next year. Only epic passes. For reference, I bought the epic local over the summer (no blackout dates at Okemo) for under $700. Also has Vail shown interest in a property in the southeast?

 

[rhymeandreason]

Lol, I wish I could say that I dutifully perfected my technique on appropriate terrain so that I was always in perfect control when I progressed from beginner to advanced slopes and that I was NEVER one of those skiers who was overterrained... but that just isn’t true! I have definitely skittered down some trails and scraped off some powder by slide slipping too much. Sometimes due to snow conditions and sometimes because I really did think I was ready. And then back to the drawing board!

In terms of wanting to have our cake and eat it too...I suspect those of us that are complaining most about the multi resort passes are those of us that live in metro areas (Seattle, SLC, Denver...) where our nearby ski areas were doing well already, we didn't have any complaints before in terms of needed infrastructure upgrades, and they already were as crowded as we'd want to see them. It already felt like our areas were bursting at the seams (if you aren't at Stevens Pass by 10 on a weekend, there's no parking left and you are out of luck), and now our areas are on Epic and Ikon? I just can't imagine any benefit. And we don't have other options--mom and pop places or smaller places.

I also haven't seen any particular animosity toward beginners or families here. What I do see is a wariness of people that don't ski well but think they do, and you see them out of control or overterrained. For example I am seeing so many more of these folks at places like Sun Valley since they became part of a pass system.

 

[mustski]

@mustski - interesting, did Alterra release their numbers on Ikon passes? I haven't seen that 75% base pass figure before. It makes sense because Ikon has essentially replaced passes for several resorts like mammoth, winter park and stratton.

Mountain sources at Mammoth mountain said this. I have not attempted to verify it. It may be only as compared to previous passes sold at Mammoth. I don't know.

 

[marzNC]

Well marzNC, I beg to differ. We have a large group of Brits in at Tremblant and Mont Ste. Anne these 2 weeks. Those 2 places are promoted over in Britain and attract a lot of customers. Tremblant runs a Ski/Ride la Gap for Gap year students from Britain.

I'll agree with @Jilly, re: Europeans coming to New England. Every April, at both Sugarloaf and Sunday River, large groups of school kids from UK come out. It's always a call/plea at both resorts for extra instructors.

Killington also has a couple weeks when British school groups come over--I seem to recall it's April or maybe end of March

I understand about groups coming from Europe for a spring break ski trip adventure.

However I was addressing @Belgiangirl under the assumption that she is an adult who would be planning a ski trip to North America during midseason. In that situation, I would be hard pressed to recommend planning a ski trip to a destination resort on Epic/Ikon/MCP in the northeast over any of the locations in the big mountains in western N. America.

 

[marzNC]

As a tangent question - of the resorts that everyone has discussed, how many of them have on-site accommodations?

There are a few locations on Epic/Ikon/MCP that don't have any slopeside lodging. Ikon has more of them, including Brighton, Crystal, Eldora. Mt. Sunapee in NH was part of the purchase of Okemo and Crested Butte by Vail Resorts. Sunapee has a bit of lodging pretty close to the ski base, but nothing slopeside (land is owned by the State of NH).

 

[marzNC]

did Alterra release their numbers on Ikon passes?

The only numbers I've seen related to Ikon passes was from a news article from Dec 2018. The stated goal was 250,000. Note that the numbers for Epic passes is pretty close to 1,000,000 for 2018-19, partially because of the $99 military deal. I think the total for Epic for 2017-18 was 750,000. That's all by mid-October long before anyone has any idea where it's going to snow . . . and where it's going to be a low snow winter.