Overcrowding at Epic and Ikon resorts

[Tele Tracy]

I've been a pass holder at Abay for a number of years. Because of school schedules my family skis there during peak holiday weeks and I've definitely experienced an increase in crowds. Many people are being shunted up from Keystone complaining of three hour lift line waits. In previous years we could always count on good parking in the early riser lot of we arrived a half hour before the lifts spin, but the past couple of seasons have seen early riser nearly full by 9 and high noon closed with last chance looking chancy before 11. Our new routine is to get there at 7:30 and make a skin lap or two before the lifts open. I'm glad Abasin is making a change. It's charm lies in it being a locals mountain, rather than one of the big tourists resorts.

 

[Belgiangirl]

I understand about groups coming from Europe for a spring break ski trip adventure.

However I was addressing @Belgiangirl under the assumption that she is an adult who would be planning a ski trip to North America during midseason. In that situation, I would be hard pressed to recommend planning a ski trip to a destination resort on Epic/Ikon/MCP in the northeast over any of the locations in the big mountains in western N. America.

I was trying to compare 'busiest period in the US' to 'busiest period in the EU' but that got lost in translation I'm afraid Kids get 2 weeks off around Christmas and NYE over here and those weeks are generally considered to be the busiest of the year. Hence the comparison to holiday weekends. The waiting times and crowds during my Trois Vallées trip were by far the worst I've encountered in the Alps, yet they're still nowhere near what you ladies seem to endure from time to time.

Another interesting sidenote, Saturdays are usually amongst the quietest days of the week in the Alps. It's known as 'changeover day' (wechseltag in German) as most people leave and arrive on this day. Going skiing for a week (Saturday till Saturday) is by and large the most popular option it seems. Tons of travel operators offer really good deals on accommodation + ski pass for 6 days, starting on Sunday and valid until next Friday. Quite a few resorts will let you ski the first Saturday afternoon for free if you have at least a 6-day pass. 7 or 8-day extensions are really cheap too, but not a lot of people bother to get them.

I think most people aren't that 'hardcore' about skiing and don't mind spending a day or two setting themselves up, doing some shopping and exploring, going for a walk around town, etc. It's usually more serious skiers (or non-Europeans) who deviate from this formula and go skiing for longer or shorter periods of time. Can't say for sure but I think the standard EU minimum of 4 weeks PTO has to be factored in too - there seems to be less urgency to ski as many days as possible in the shortest possible timeframe.

It also leads to the skyrocketing of day pass prices, which hammers new snowsports participants with an unsustainable cost-to-participate. The lines may get shorter as fewer people can find a way into snowsports for themselves and their kids.

I just skied on a holiday weekend at Grand Targhee, an hour from Jackson Hole (on MCP/Ikon) and 4 hours drive from SLC in Utah. Lift tickets are $90 even with no advanced purchase. Never waited more than 5 min on a powder day, Sunday of a holiday weekend. Targhee has 2600 acres, almost all lift-served. However, people don't go to Targhee for groomers.

So $90 on the spot is considered a good deal? The only place in the Alps where I've seen similar prices is Zermatt and that gets you the international pass with the Italian part of the resort included. Most day passes hover around $60 per day if you buy them at the register, doesn't differ much between France, Italy and Austria, Switzerland is a tad more expensive. If you get one of the package deals with accommodation from Saturday till Saturday and a standard 6-day pass, you'll probably pay between $500 and $1000. The last trip I took was to Les Arcs in France, we paid $600 and stayed in a 12-person chalet style apartment. A 6-day pass for the entire Paradiski resort was included and was valid Saturday afternoon on arrival. I think the 1-day extension to ski on the second Saturday too was around $50.

This seems to be peanuts compared to what you ladies are used to paying, yet it's still prohibitively expensive for a lot of people over here, including myself. I'm probably lower middle class but not working fulltime atm, so skiing eats up 50-90% of my disposable income. I've spread most of my gear purchases over the summer months and joked with the ski shop owner that I'd be back for a pair of skins the next month, if not I'd have to survive on bread and water.

That's a (slight) exaggeration, but I can really imagine a lot of people are put off by the costs involved with skiing. Passes valid in multiple resorts seem like a good solution for those who come to love the sport to lower the cost, but reading about your experiences sheds a very different light on things. So thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and insights and best of luck to all the ladies who have to face those crazy crowds from time to time

 

[Abbi]

What did the weekday pass cost? As far as I am aware, they are not offering them next year. Only epic passes. For reference, I bought the epic local over the summer (no blackout dates at Okemo) for under $700. Also has Vail shown interest in a property in the southeast?

I paid about $405 for the weekday Okemo pass, including the insurance on it. But since I also bought an IKON pass, if I have to buy an Epic pass next year, so be it.

 

[marzNC]

So $90 on the spot is considered a good deal? The only place in the Alps where I've seen similar prices is Zermatt and that gets you the international pass with the Italian part of the resort included. Most day passes hover around $60 per day if you buy them at the register, doesn't differ much between France, Italy and Austria, Switzerland is a tad more expensive. If you get one of the package deals with accommodation from Saturday till Saturday and a standard 6-day pass, you'll probably pay between $500 and $1000. The last trip I took was to Les Arcs in France, we paid $600 and stayed in a 12-person chalet style apartment. A 6-day pass for the entire Paradiski resort was included and was valid Saturday afternoon on arrival. I think the 1-day extension to ski on the second Saturday too was around $50.

This seems to be peanuts compared to what you ladies are used to paying, yet it's still prohibitively expensive for a lot of people over here, including myself. I'm probably lower middle class but not working fulltime atm, so skiing eats up 50-90% of my disposable income. I've spread most of my gear purchases over the summer months and joked with the ski shop owner that I'd be back for a pair of skins the next month, if not I'd have to survive on bread and water.

That's a (slight) exaggeration, but I can really imagine a lot of people are put off by the costs involved with skiing. Passes valid in multiple resorts seem like a good solution for those who come to love the sport to lower the cost, but reading about your experiences sheds a very different light on things. So thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and insights and best of luck to all the ladies who have to face those crazy crowds from time to time

For a ski area that is either a "destination resort" or has equivalent terrain in terms of size and variety, a day ticket bought at the window for under $100 has become relatively low. Grand Targhee is a local "ski area" in many ways. But is quite big and a fun place to ski for a week, but not much else to do besides ski. A destination resort such as Park City is a better fit for a family who mostly ski groomers and need non-skiing activities for a day or two for a rare 1-week ski vacation. That's one reason the multi-resort passes are popular for N. American ski vacations. An Epic Pass can be used as a local season pass, plus cover the lift ticket costs for a ski vacation at a big mountain (Epic 4-day, Epic 7-day). However, there are also ski areas were families can ski locally where a day ticket is under $70 or there are family options for a season pass. Of course, if you live in New York City or Boston or Washington DC or Chicago then the only option for a ski vacation involves significant travel costs.

I live in North Carolina, 5 hours drive south of Washington DC. Could get a season pass for under $400 for a small hill that is a 4 hour drive from my house. A run averages 2 min, with a 7 min lift ride. I took my daughter for a spring break ski trip a few times when she was in elementary school. The lift tickets were a very small part of the overall cost of those trips. For my trips with adult friends, my average lift ticket cost is around $60/day based on advanced purchase online tickets and multi-resort passes. But we have the flexibility to travel during non-holiday periods.

I was trying to compare 'busiest period in the US' to 'busiest period in the EU' but that got lost in translation I'm afraid Kids get 2 weeks off around Christmas and NYE over here and those weeks are generally considered to be the busiest of the year. Hence the comparison to holiday weekends. The waiting times and crowds during my Trois Vallées trip were by far the worst I've encountered in the Alps, yet they're still nowhere near what you ladies seem to endure from time to time.

No problem. Having traveled a fair amount in Europe (not during the winter), I have some appreciation for the travel time between countries. Plus train travel is a viable option vs flying or driving for a family holiday.

Somewhere I've seen statistics about the percentage of people who enjoy snowsports by country. It's much higher for the European countries than the U.S. or Canada. Assorted reasons, but a factor is how far away many people in N. America live from really good skiing. At the same time, there are more people than you might imagine who live in Salt Lake City and don't care about snowsports.

 

[SnowSeeker]

Woah. I've been very interested in/jealous about the passes you guys have in the US, as it's very uncommon in Europe to have multiple resorts on one pass. This sheds an interesting new light on the whole concept for me personally. Lift lines over 1,5hr? Calling it a day at 11 because crowds? Whaaat? What are normal operating times in the States?

As a comparison: line times were 20-30 minutes at most during the week of New Year's in 3 Vallées in France. Slopes were already so crowded, can't imagine even more people and longer lines... I already skipped the two last days of skiing on that trip because I wasn't enjoying myself.

The concept of being able to ski multiple resorts on one pass is very appealing to me, but not if it leads to (permanent) overcrowding.

Don’t be jealous. We moved back to the US from Belgium last year and we miss our European skiing, including the much lower cost of lift passes! We skied during all of the “busy” school breaks in France, Italy and Austria. We never stood in line for more than a short time except for the first morning gondola up. On the east coast of the US (where we live) ski trails are quite short so any significant line is very irritating.

 

[Ski Sine Fine]

Don’t be jealous. We moved back to the US from Belgium last year and we miss our European skiing, including the much lower cost of lift passes!

The last time I skied before I took a 12 year hiatus was when I lived in Belgium and took the family to ski Alpendorf in Austria with Siegi Tours. Six days for $2,800 for the four of us, including travel, lodging, tickets, lessons, rentals, and evening entertainments. Unfortunately, my boys at the time did not get the ski bug, hence my 12 year hiatus. Sigh.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Ironically, it seems that while Jackson Hole has been busier (purely my personal observations) than usual in January, our President's week crowds have been much lower than I ever remember in 18 years! Is it IKON blackout dates, is it abundant snow elsewhere, is it locals staying away over the holidays? Not sure.

In terms of crowds I have mixed feelings about these passes. If we as an industry worry about skiing and snowboarding being too expensive for most, and especially for younger people, then we really should be glad that the passes are allowing more people to enjoy the sport. It is a mixed blessing, but oddly one I welcome in spite of the very different peaks and almost non existent valleys as far as crowds go.

 

[Christy]

The passes may provide good value when you're able to use it enough, but they don't make skiing affordable for people that have trouble affording skiing.

 

[SallyCat]

My understanding is that resorts make significantly less money on each multi-pass purchase than they would on their own season pass sales. The result is an increase in the day-pass pricing in order to compensate for that loss. That makes it harder for people to find their way into the sport. And especially when you consider that newer skiers and riders are likely also going to need to pay for rental equipment and lessons. That's a pretty significant barrier to participation.

 

[mustski]

I suspect that the folks in charge know exactly what they are doing. I can tell you that without a doubt, I knew folks in SoCal who bought the Epic pass over a season pass at either BBMR or Mammoth/June. They did so because they would only ski a couple of weeks a year and the Epic pass was still more cost effective than paying the window price for tickets. It gave them the option of one week in Tahoe and one week in Colorado. If two week a year skiers are choosing that as an option for their family ski vacations, it's a working model.

 

[Belgiangirl]

Don’t be jealous. We moved back to the US from Belgium last year and we miss our European skiing, including the much lower cost of lift passes! We skied during all of the “busy” school breaks in France, Italy and Austria. We never stood in line for more than a short time except for the first morning gondola up. On the east coast of the US (where we live) ski trails are quite short so any significant line is very irritating.

The last time I skied before I took a 12 year hiatus was when I lived in Belgium and took the family to ski Alpendorf in Austria with Siegi Tours. Six days for $2,800 for the four of us, including travel, lodging, tickets, lessons, rentals, and evening entertainments. Unfortunately, my boys at the time did not get the ski bug, hence my 12 year hiatus. Sigh.

Off topic but wow, two different Divas who lived in Belgium? Such a very small world we live in!

 

[SallyCat]

Side note, but when you think of how many small, more-affordable mountains have gone out of business, it's hard for families to find a way into skiing. So the only entry point is a $90 per-person fee, plus rentals.

Even the little community rope tow on my New England mountain is run by wealthy people who seem oblivious to barriers to snowsports participation. Any time you talk about maybe seeking grants to provide broader programming for kids, they just keep saying "the rope tow is free; anyone can use it. End of story." Which is true, but skis and boots and bindings aren't free, and if you're a kid and don't have someone to take you skiing, who will teach you? How will it even occur to you that it's something you can do?

I've thoroughly broken with the organization over their refusal to live up to their mission (as a nonprofit utilizing town land) to provide affordable activities to the community. It's become a social club for a small group of second-homeowners. Pretty disappointing, both personally and from a snowsports-sustainability perspective.

End rant.

 

[Christy]

My understanding is that resorts make significantly less money on each multi-pass purchase than they would on their own season pass sales.

I wonder how much these passes increase profitability. It must be profitable otherwise they wouldn't do it. But I wonder for example if A Basin isn't really taking that much of a hit by dropping out. Really I have no clue here and am just curious. It's still a pretty new phenomenon. I wonder if the profits are living up to expectations.

 

[mustski]

Part of the profits would be other on mountain expenditures - meals, drinks, and in some cases lodging. If A Basin isn't seeing an increase in those areas and is also dealing with the need for additional employees to handle parking hassles, safety, ski patrol, etc. ... then it is possible, they just feel there is not enough increase in profit to make it worthwhile. A successful model for one resort is not necessarily so for others. I suspect that CO is a bit of a unique market. There would be a great number of locals who would choose something other than Ikon or Epic. The fact that A Basin is pulling out means they remained independent in just a partnership situation. I suspect that short term partnerships will be more of a model than the unlimited access resorts that are bought and paid for.

 

[MissySki]

That' my thought as well, that the profits come from lodging if a mountain has it and then perhaps food purchases and anything else peripheral needed while there. Plus, it's great advertising and visibility to people who might not normally visit. If so many people are now buying these multi resort passes and a mountain isn't on one they might be losing a lot of potential new (and old) customers who are buying them. I have the Ikon this season whereas I normally do a season pass and stick to one mountain for the most part, sometimes I've been tempted to go to a non Ikon resort recently but have been deciding not to since it's just more cost effective to keep with where I can already ski for free. Why would I go pay $90+ for each day somewhere not on my pass when I can choose from a bunch of options that don't have the added expenditure? However, this is still spreading my money spent on food and the shops when I'm at these other mountains that I don't normally frequent and it's also taking it away from the mountain I usually stick with. Next season I am probably going back to Sunday River full time though, as long as I can get a seasonal rental, I really miss having my home base there as much fun as it is exploring other mountains. It's my favorite in the east for a reason, and this has been a good reminder for me! I really wish they'd do a cheaper add on option for people with a season pass from one of their mountains like they used to do with the Maxx pass, that works great to still have some other side trips or a trip west etc.

 

[Christy]

If so many people are now buying these multi resort passes and a mountain isn't on one they might be losing a lot of potential new (and old) customers who are buying them.

Yeah I'm really wondering how this will affect the non-affiliated ski areas in the Cascades (Mt Baker, White Pass and Mission Ridge). Maybe, say, Baker will lose business to people that live between them and Stevens as more people buy the Epic pass (same deal with White Pass and Crystal); then again maybe others will make a longer drive to Baker as Stevens gets even more congested and impossible to park. In any case I suppose there is enough people in the Puget Sound area these days to make sure business is good at all the areas.

 

[Christy]

Next season I am probably going back to Sunday River full time though, as long as I can get a seasonal rental, I really miss having my home base there as much fun as it is exploring other mountains. It's my favorite in the east for a reason, and this has been a good reminder for me!

We bought the MCP for a few years because it made Sun Valley a good deal, and we thought we'd maybe go to another resort on it, but it turns out we want to ski where we want to ski regardless of a pass. Vacation time is valuable and I don't want it dictated by the idea of a discount especially when you consider the outlay for airline costs, lodging, etc.

 

[contesstant]

It will be interesting to see what happens at Snowbasin next year. Personally, I don't think we'll see much increased traffic the first year. Snowbasin has always been regarded as "out of the way" and I don't think the Epic Pass is going to change that. I think places like Solitude are seeing more of an impact because it's so close to SLC.

As a tangent question - of the resorts that everyone has discussed, how many of them have on-site accommodations?

I disagree but I hope I'm wrong. The MCP has increased skier traffic IMMENSELY at Snowbasin, and most are traveling from the Cottonwood resorts on days that they can't get to those mountains due to canyon closures, OR they are from out of town and are hitting all of the MCP resorts, including Snowbird, Alta, Jackson, and Big Sky, all in one trip.

I cannot get over how busy the mountain was midweek this week. It was STUPID.

 

[Sheena]

I disagree but I hope I'm wrong. The MCP has increased skier traffic IMMENSELY at Snowbasin, and most are traveling from the Cottonwood resorts on days that they can't get to those mountains due to canyon closures, OR they are from out of town and are hitting all of the MCP resorts, including Snowbird, Alta, Jackson, and Big Sky, all in one trip.

I cannot get over how busy the mountain was midweek this week. It was STUPID.

The MCP did increase traffic a HUGE amount. Though I think it was more noticeable last year and not so much this ski season.

As for this week specifically, with the amount of snow that SB received I am not sure not having the MCP would have made any difference.

As for the Epic pass inclusion next season, I don't think the impact will be huge compared to what it has been with MCP. Though I guess we will have to wait and see. For me, SB passes are the best for our family so I don't see this making me change my mind about skiing there one way or another.

I am curious though what SBs announcement is about whatever it is they have planned with Sun Valley.

 

[contesstant]

The MCP did increase traffic a HUGE amount. Though I think it was more noticeable last year and not so much this ski season.

As for this week specifically, with the amount of snow that SB received I am not sure not having the MCP would have made any difference.

As for the Epic pass inclusion next season, I don't think the impact will be huge compared to what it has been with MCP. Though I guess we will have to wait and see. For me, SB passes are the best for our family so I don't see this making me change my mind about skiing there one way or another.

I am curious though what SBs announcement is about whatever it is they have planned with Sun Valley.

Yeah, the Sun Valley thing, a bone being thrown because we're not happy about the Epic partnership, which truly gives us locals ZERO benefit?? Hmmm...

As for increase in traffic, I see it big time particularly since I was fortunate enough to ski there midweek for 4 seasons, and have NEVER seen anything like yesterday or Wednesday. Rode the gondola and over and over "we came here because the MCP and couldn't get to LCC" OR "wanted to because all the snow fell here."

There just doesn't seem to be much upside for the locals. I'd still be happy to pay quite a lot more for a season pass if it would help limit traffic on the mountain.

**sigh** I want to count my blessings, but it's just kind of a bummer. The mountain gets tracked out within an hour or less on powder days.