New boots, sizing and flex

[CindiSue]

I started skiing about 6 years ago at 45 (did a little in college). I went to a bootfitter because I have super narrow feet, but I think he put me in totally the wrong boot. First it's too small according to measurements, but more importantly it's a jr racing boot, 90 flex, rated for advanced to professional skiers. I can barely get my foot in and out. I am 115 pounds and I think this flex is way too stuff for me. I was up to about an advanced intermediate level, but then didn't ski too much lately due to lack of snow, so probably back to intermediate. I like to ski slowly, taking it easy on groomers. But probably by the end of the season I'll be back to much steep terrain.

So I'm wondering if I need a bootfitter again, or if I can just move my custom footbeds to a boot that seems better suited. What keeps jumping out at me are Solomon X-Max 70's. Or others were Delballo Avanti 70's, or even maybe a softer 70 like Atomic Live Fit 70 or Waymaker 70. I'm a bit confused by widths though. The websites often talk about beginners and intermediates wanting wider boots for comfort even if their feet are narrower. So Solomon X-Pro 70s look like the same thing as the X-Max, just a medium width instead of narrow. But I don't know if my feet are sooo narrow that I really do need narrow.

I am 5'6", 115 pounds naked.
R foot 24.3L and 83-84mmW L foot 24.5L and 88mmW

Any advice or feedback greatly appreciated! I just moved to Sun Valley so I should be doing more skiing again!

 

[contesstant]

90 flex for your stats is not too stiff, although flex can be very personal. Also, your feet are about the same width as mine and they are a MAJOR PITA to fit with ski boots. That fitter did you a favor putting you in such a narrow boot, take it from me whose skiing has really suffered over the years from boots that were too big and too wide. You never did mention the actual size of the boot.

You can have a boot softened. If I were you, I'd get to a reputable fitter there (and I'm sure there is more than one) and get them tweaked/softened if necessary.

If you go down to a 70 flex, most of which are made WIDE, you will be swimming in them. Better to get to a fitter with the current pair to see what can be done.

People with freaky skinny feet unite!

 

[badger]

So jealous you live in Sun Valley! And Welcome.

The 24 size should not force you to need a Jr. race boot. Most of us that use Jr. race boots are women who have a boot size of 21 or 21.5 which very few boot makers even manufacture. Lange and Dalbello make an adult women's boot in those sizes , but only in one or two models. With the 24, you could find boots from all the manufactuers. I imagine your bootfitter learned that your feet need a low-volume boot, and a narrower last. There are different Jr. race boots of varying flexes and widths. I suspect you're in a Tecnica 90. I had those for several years because they just fit my foot better---until Dalbello created the Chakra @95 flex---. I am 5'2, weigh between 92 to 95 and am stuck with these stiffer boots just because my size is a 21.5 or even a 21. The Jr. race boot was fine for awhile, but the stance is better in the Dalbello.

This season I attempted to experiment with a softer-flexing boot; so I purchased a Rossingnol Jr. race boot in a 70 flex. Despite the boot saying it is my size, it really does not fit well. I used them a couple of times, but my feet hurt too much to continue with them as they kept sliding around. I even put in my Intuition liners from the Dalbello boots, but that did not help either. What I may have learned is that the softer flex might be beneficial, but my jury is still out on this one since I had to discontinue the experiment. My reason for the experiment was to see if a softer flex would make skiing in choppy, moguled snow easier due to the ability of the boot to flex with the terrain making it easier for me to absorb the variations as they came along. For hard snow the 95 is actually fine; even better. That is why racers use stiff boots, they sort of act like levers with the ski edges.

Your concern about the boot being for advanced skiers is one that can likely be removed. The quality of the Jr. race boots is comparable to a good adult boot, and that is why small women of all levels use them. As far as the flex, you may be just fine once you start skiing in them. Flexes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, somewhat like ski lengths. A 90 with one company may be stiffer than a 90 with another. The style of the boot makes a difference too. 3 or 4 buckle, the plastics, adjustments you can make on the boot, etc. Be sure to remove the plastic spoiler on the back of the cuff at the top before you ski, or you won't be flexing at all! It is attached with velcro and comes right off.

 

[CindiSue]

Interesting, thanks!. What I have now is a Solomon X3 90 Jr Race boot. I don't think it's the 24 that required it, I think it was the narrowness of the foot. In addition to the 85-88m width of the front of my feet, my heels are super narrow. My first boots my heels weren't held down at all and I was always up on my toes. The spec sheet says mine is a 95-99 last. The Solomon X-Max 70 that I'm looking at says 98 last. So it seems like a similar volume. Honestly I'm not sure how to tell if the boot is too stiff for my skiing. I just thought that based on what I read online. But the big problem I have with it is it is impossible for me to get my foot out. I'm really afraid I'm going to tear my front tendon trying to get it off some day. It's not easy to get on but not as bad because it's warm, but after it's gotten cold it's impossible to get off. Also it is so hard to tighten the top 2 buckles to where I need them that my husband had to make me a long tool out of pvc that I can use for leverage. So then I have to ski with that dumb thing :-) Also the top of my big toe is crushed from the top. But I didn't know the shells could be modified, so maybe I do just need to take these to a bootfitter and see what he thinks.

 

[Jilly]

The X-max would be something to try on. Stay right away from the Atomics. We sell those to people with WIDE feet. Especially the Live fit.

I agree with the others about the 24 length. That's a normal ladies size. I wouldn't play around with these boots. Look for new ones.

 

[badger]

I would definitely get a second opinion from another bootfitter. Was the bootfitter actually certified?
When I wore the Tecnica race boots the entry and exit was pretty manageable. When I used that Rossignol Jr. boot I had a dickens of a time getting in and out of it!! Absolutely horrid. It can be very very hard to spread the plastic wide enough--- without cutting your hands up---to get feet free. Never again for me.

 

[contesstant]

Interesting, thanks!. What I have now is a Solomon X3 90 Jr Race boot. I don't think it's the 24 that required it, I think it was the narrowness of the foot. In addition to the 85-88m width of the front of my feet, my heels are super narrow. My first boots my heels weren't held down at all and I was always up on my toes. The spec sheet says mine is a 95-99 last. The Solomon X-Max 70 that I'm looking at says 98 last. So it seems like a similar volume. Honestly I'm not sure how to tell if the boot is too stiff for my skiing. I just thought that based on what I read online. But the big problem I have with it is it is impossible for me to get my foot out. I'm really afraid I'm going to tear my front tendon trying to get it off some day. It's not easy to get on but not as bad because it's warm, but after it's gotten cold it's impossible to get off. Also it is so hard to tighten the top 2 buckles to where I need them that my husband had to make me a long tool out of pvc that I can use for leverage. So then I have to ski with that dumb thing :-) Also the top of my big toe is crushed from the top. But I didn't know the shells could be modified, so maybe I do just need to take these to a bootfitter and see what he thinks.

Take them to a fitter regardless of your intentions. They'll either find a solution for this boot OR find a different boot that will work for your foot.

With the width of your foot, this is not something to monkey around with, and I don't think anyone who doesn't have such a narrow foot understands this quite like those of us who do. It is REALLY difficult to find a good fit. REALLY, REALLY difficult.

Also, volume is a lot more than just the last numbers. WAY more. All 98's are not the same, all 95's are not the same. The shape of the boot overall, how high an instep, etc. have a huge impact on overall volume. I was in two different 98mm last Tecnica boots (and at a 22, overall narrower than a boot in a 24) and I STILL had a 3mm shim in the bottom of each, and I STILL had too much room! I did end up in a Salmon Xmax 90 this season, and I love the flex and overall the fit is pretty darn good, but I am having to use duct tape on the right liner to take up some volume. Still a better fit than anything I've had. The Salomon's seem to have a much more "L" shape to them, lower instep, etc. so the shape works well overall for my foot. I am crammed into a very short last for me, but it's working so far. (I measure a 23, but am in a 22 boot.) As boot lasts get longer, their width correspondingly gets wider. I believe the "median" size is a 26.5, but don't quote me on that. So a 26.5 boot in "X" model has a 98mm last, then as they get larger, they get wider, and as they get smaller, they get narrower. So, my being in a shorter last than what I measure puts me in an even narrower boot, which is a good thing.

And I still think based on your stats and skiing description, 70 is too soft. Again, you can soften a boot, but you can't make it stiffer.

I did a quick search and there are at least 3 shops in the SV area: Sturtevant's, Surefoot, and Pete Lane's. Maybe do a little sleuthing to see which one might be best for you to visit. The beauty of living near the mountain AND working with a local fitter is you can ski a few runs and run into the shop and give them feedback/get tweaks done. You are fortunate there, so take advantage of it for sure!

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Agree with the others that the reasoning for the jr race boot is the width of your feet, not the length. Sounds like the boots that they put you in the width may be appropriate but the area around your instep is causing issues. I'd take them back to where you got them and let them know the issue your having and see what they can do for you. If it turns out they can't solve your problem by either tweaking the boot or putting you in something else then I'd try one of the other shops.

 

[Kimmyt]

Interesting, thanks!. What I have now is a Solomon X3 90 Jr Race boot. I don't think it's the 24 that required it, I think it was the narrowness of the foot. In addition to the 85-88m width of the front of my feet, my heels are super narrow. My first boots my heels weren't held down at all and I was always up on my toes. The spec sheet says mine is a 95-99 last. The Solomon X-Max 70 that I'm looking at says 98 last. So it seems like a similar volume. Honestly I'm not sure how to tell if the boot is too stiff for my skiing. I just thought that based on what I read online. But the big problem I have with it is it is impossible for me to get my foot out. I'm really afraid I'm going to tear my front tendon trying to get it off some day. It's not easy to get on but not as bad because it's warm, but after it's gotten cold it's impossible to get off. Also it is so hard to tighten the top 2 buckles to where I need them that my husband had to make me a long tool out of pvc that I can use for leverage. So then I have to ski with that dumb thing :-) Also the top of my big toe is crushed from the top. But I didn't know the shells could be modified, so maybe I do just need to take these to a bootfitter and see what he thinks.

I just wanted to add to all the great comments above, that it is quite common for people who have been in roomy and soft beginner boots to feel that a properly fitting boot is too small. It should feel very formfitting. Getting in and out may be a bit harder but I'm also thinking that perhaps your technique on removing the boot might not be helping. Are you grabbing the tongue on the inside of the boot and pulling out and away to the side? If not, do this. Sit down. Pull the tongue as mentioned, flexing your ankle at the same time. Once your foot starts to slide out, push down on the back of the boot cuff and you should come out easily. A bootfitter can show you this too.

The other issues can all be addressed by a bootfitter, they can make room above the big toe, they can move the buckles back (well on some boot models they can) so that you have more room to buckle and don't have to crank down so hard.

It sounds like mostly you are doubtful of your ability to flex the boot, and really the only way to know that will be to ski it and find out. But I think a 90 flex would be ok in general for your size and ability level.

 

[CindiSue]

Great comments. My bootfitter was certified and is often on lists of top bootfitters in the country. That said, he didn't have a big supply of boots so I often wonder if I got the best of what he had, and not the best available. I can't go back to him because I don't live in Reno anymore. There is a place in town called Ski Tec that has certified bootfitters. I would do a Surefoot but I'm not sure if I need a full $1200+ solution, but if anyone with narrow feet has experience with those let me know. I would do it if it was the best solution.

I wanted to clarify that these boots are not new, I have been skiing in them for 4-5 years. It's just been maybe a half dozen times a year.

Kimmyt, that "kind" of works when the boot is warm, but even then it takes every muscle I have. But when it's cold it just doesn't budge, the plastic doesn't want to flex at all. Using the tongue as a lever is the only option, but the tongue is very narrow and you can't push it too far before it pops through, and then there are pieces or sharp plastic that are rubbing on the tendon at the front of my ankkle and I'm twisting my foot around and praying I can get the foot out without that plastic cutting in. I really think that if I start skiing a lot with those boots, it isn't a question of IF I will get injured by that, but WHEN. Maybe they can cut some of that plastic away. (Note, I don't have a lot of upper body strength, but even my strong husband has a hard time getting the opening to flex enough for my foot to come out.)

But it's good to know that you all think 90 is an ok flex. All the sites online say that is way too stiff for an intermediate, that 70 is better or even 60 if you're light weight. And the boot itself is called "very stiff" and rated for "expert to professional". But maybe I can solve the in/out problem and be happy. I'll see what the new bootfitter says on Monday.

 

[Kimmyt]

If you've had the boots for 4-5 years and they are not working for you then I think it's a different situation. I thought these were new and unskied on. Perhaps you should look into getting new boots or see what another bootfitter thinks of the ones you are in an if they are the right boot for you....

 

[2ski2moro]

Take this advice with a grain of salt, with the knowledge that I really like a stiff boot. I was a dedicated Salomon used for more than 30 years, but had to switch to Lange RS 110 SC to find the stiff boot I like.

I suspect that a Salomon will be too wide and too soft for you. If you go with a Salomon, I predict that you will need to go to their X-Max (top of the line) to get narrow width you need. I think that the other boots in their line tend toward "comfort fit."

The next thing to watch out for the Salomon flex rating. I skied with the Salomon X-Max 110 and it was like a limp noodle compared to other brands with 110. No joke, I could practically collapse the boot when I flexed. The fit was good, but the flex was waaaay too soft.
I also tried the Salomon X-Pro 90. It was impossibly wide and the flex was ridiculously soft.

I tried a Dalbello, but it was too narrow for my foot. Maybe it could work for you. Your boot fitter is your new best friend.

 

[Serafina]

Interesting, thanks!. What I have now is a Solomon X3 90 Jr Race boot. I don't think it's the 24 that required it, I think it was the narrowness of the foot. In addition to the 85-88m width of the front of my feet, my heels are super narrow. My first boots my heels weren't held down at all and I was always up on my toes. The spec sheet says mine is a 95-99 last. The Solomon X-Max 70 that I'm looking at says 98 last. So it seems like a similar volume. Honestly I'm not sure how to tell if the boot is too stiff for my skiing. I just thought that based on what I read online. But the big problem I have with it is it is impossible for me to get my foot out. I'm really afraid I'm going to tear my front tendon trying to get it off some day. It's not easy to get on but not as bad because it's warm, but after it's gotten cold it's impossible to get off. Also it is so hard to tighten the top 2 buckles to where I need them that my husband had to make me a long tool out of pvc that I can use for leverage. So then I have to ski with that dumb thing :-) Also the top of my big toe is crushed from the top. But I didn't know the shells could be modified, so maybe I do just need to take these to a bootfitter and see what he thinks.

These boots sound like a total bust to me. Whether the 90 flex is appropriate or not is something that you can decide in a conversation with a *good* bootfitter (which it doesn't sound like the last one was). Have a chat with this individual, tell them what kind of skiing you do and how you do it, and where you like to go, and they'll be able to get a good idea about a suitable flex as well as recommending a more suitable boot.

I have really narrow heels too, and my achilles tendon is a little tight, and I find that if I don't use heel lifts, my heels come up no matter what the boot, and if I do use heel lifts, they don't. So the narrow heels is not in itself a problem, nor is the size 24 boot.

That your toes are feeling crushed is a problem. That you can't tighten the top buckles without some kind of lever is a problem. That you can't slide your foot in and out is a problem. I'd say, find a really good bootfitter (I think there is actually a thread around here with a big list of recommended bootfitters), and just start from scratch. Your boots should not be a source of grief.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Okay, I was going to quote a bunch of stuff, but then I saw Kim's comment which made me look up and realize these boots are several years old. So yeah, feel free to go to a boot fitter and inquire about boots. There has been a LOT of advancement in ski boot technology in the last few years.

But, some important points -

* If your bootfitter was one of the top in the country, he probably wasn't railroading you into skiing his inventory. His reputation wouldn't withstand that sort of behavior. Honestly it sounds pretty close to a good fit.
* Especially if you have unusual characteristics (narrow foot, very narrow heel) - plan on multiple trips to get things worked out. Most fitters suggest 3-5 days of skiing before coming back to ask for adjustments, unless it's very painful as opposed to just uncomfortable. Even molded liners generally do pack out / mold to your foot further over a few days. So it's very important to have a boot fitter that you can visit conveniently, if at all possible. I have difficult feet and am a "regular" at my boot fitter's - probably once a month on average. It's amazing the tools that fitters have at their disposal to modify the plastic of the boot if needed.
* No regular humans should ever shop online for or read reviews about ski boots. Boot fit is an incredibly complex formula, and you are not going to be able to research your way into the right boot unless you're a ski boot professional - a fitter or someone who writes reviews for a living. And you can bet your bottom dollar they don't buy boots sight unseen.
* The stiffness of a boot while skiing doesn't have all that much to do with the stiffness of the boot when trying to get in and out of it. If your feet weren't so narrow, I'd suggest a cabrio design because they're so easy to deal with - but I don't think anyone's making them terribly narrow.
* Surefoot sucks (in my opinion). I could give all sorts of data points, but the biggest is that they are a chain and the quality of their staff is going to be very uneven. You may get an experienced boot fitter, or you may get someone who just started at the shop this season. Guess which one is more likely. I shelled out for one of their custom foam liners, and it did nothing to fix my boot issues.

 

[CindiSue]

Well I went to the great bootfitter at SkiTec and have very mixed feelings. He said my boot has way too much volume and my liner sucks. (Even though I got these at one of the top boot fitters, and you all say it's not a bad boot for me, and the width of the last is the same as the new ones he thought were better.) He promised a new boot would be way easier to get on and off so gave me an Atomic Redster Pro 110 Race boot. Told me to go ski today but frankly I don't think it's worth it, as they are harder to get on and off that my old ones. At first he was very positive, although he said I had the lowest volume foot he's ever seen. He said the boots could be softened to make them easier to get on and off. Then as time went on and I tried to take them off and put them on, he got more skeptical, and by the time I left he said maybe he'd need to switch me to the same boot in a youth version with a 70 or 80 flex.

I think I'm just going to go back and have him do that. I am scared that they might be too flexy, but they still are rated as fairlly stiff because they are another race boot. Does it make sense that, for example, a 90 race boot is a lot stiffer than a 90 non-race boot?

And is a less stiff boot really easier to pull apart to get on and off? The problem is the boot is so narrow and my foot is so long, that I just can't make the corner unless multiple people are helping pull the boots apart very wide.

 

[ling]

But the big problem I have with it is it is impossible for me to get my foot out. I'm really afraid I'm going to tear my front tendon trying to get it off some day. It's not easy to get on but not as bad because it's warm, but after it's gotten cold it's impossible to get off. Also it is so hard to tighten the top 2 buckles to where I need them that my husband had to make me a long tool out of pvc that I can use for leverage.

Off the cuff questions. Please don't be offended.

How's your hand strength?

Also, were you sitting down and had good purchase to brace yourself while trying to put your feet into the boot?

Reason I ask was I had "almost" the same problem but it turned out it was just me...

While in the shop, the boot fitter helped me to get in and out of the boot. I didn't think much of that fact... (it was summer when I bought the boot)

The first day I was skiing it, I struggled big time to try to get into the boot! I must have taken 1/2hr just to figure out how to put my feet into it. And at the end of the day, I couldn't take my feet out! I ended up asking other people in the room to hold me and my boot still while I twist and pull my feet out of it.

I was about to go back to the boot fitter to complain. But someone in the crowd suggested I use a hair dryer to warm the boot up before trying to take my feet out!

I opted to just sit in the lodge for 5 minutes to let the boot warm up before trying to take my feet out of the cold boot.



Fast forward 2 years. By then, the boot had been "worked" enough it's no longer a problem getting my feet in and out... In fact, I occasionally bottom it out and was thinking if I may need a newer and stiffer boot. Until I hurt my arm in an unrelated accident. Suddenly, I couldn't get into my (now somewhat softened) boot!!!

Being able to get in and out of the boot doesn't correlated to your ability to flex it.

And is a less stiff boot really easier to pull apart to get on and off? The problem is the boot is so narrow and my foot is so long, that I just can't make the corner unless multiple people are helping pull the boots apart very wide.

 

[tinymoose]

Flex numbers unfortunately are pretty damn meaningless so I wouldn't focus on the numbers too much. I think the one thing I'm confused on is why the flex would have an impact on getting the boot on and off. I've had boots that are too stiff for me that I couldn't flex at all, but that didn't impact my getting the boot on and off. The Pro 110, could you flex it in the shop? How does the boot feel in the instep? Is there too much room? Not enough room? I'm assuming you were shell fit. How much room is behind your heel when your foot is in the shell w/no liner?

 

[contesstant]

I'm also curious if he brought out any others for you to try?? I'm so sorry, I truly can relate to what you are going through. I have to say, I am pretty pleased with my Salomon XMax 90's. I am wearing a slightly thicker sock (still a thin, just not as thin as my other thins, if that makes sense) and they are feeling good after 41 days this year. Having super narrow, low instep, skinny feet sucks so badly when fitting into ski boots.

Oh, and the XMax are SUPER easy to get into and out of, which is a pleasant change as I've also dealt with what you are, and it's not fun!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I can't offer any advice except going to a boot fitter is so important. I am going through my own issues with boots. I plan to get new boots in the fall but thanks to my awesome boot fitter and many tweaks he was able to mainstay my current boots so that I'm thinking I'll get through the season just fine. I know how frustrating it is, trust me. You've got some great comments and advice from the ladies above so I just wanted to wish you lots of luck. Hopefully it gets worked out soon.

 

[CindiSue]

Hi Not offended at all. I have lousy hand strength :-) That's definitely a part of it.

I followed my gut, called him up and said they weren't going to work. I went back and he traded me to the same boot in a kids 90 flex. That one seems waaayyy better. He also gave me silicone spray to help my foot slip in. (Note the first pair he grabbed was by mistake a size too small and it crunched my toes terrible, then once he grabbed the right ones 23.5 I think instead of 22.5, they were fine. So I think the size is right. When I went in the shell yesterday it was maybe an inch in back of my foot, eyeballed, when my toes were pressed against the front, he said 3/4" was about perfect.