Question: How hard are lessons supposed to be?

[Albertan ski girl]

Ok, I had my confidence shattered a bit today in a full day lesson, and need some advice on a) how to analyse this day, and b) how to move forward.

So, I signed up for a 4 week lesson pack (1 full day lesson (5 1/2 hours every Wednesday) at Sunshine Village to up my skiing game. I would classify myself as a low advanced skier - I'm able to ski most black runs in most conditions, I've skied some powder (though most of it quickly turns to chop at the resort), I can get down (and sometimes even enjoy) bumps, and I know I still have lots of technique to work on. I'm not the speediest skier in the lot, but I'm definitely not the slowest.

I took 1 full day group lessons (not part of a pack, just random day on a discount deal) last year at Sunshine at the Blue Runner level, which they describe as working on technique and starting to ski moguls and some variable terrain. My lesson was pretty awful, I was the best skier in the group and I can firmly say that I didnt take anything away from that lesson. I then took a discounted 2 hour private at Lake Louise and really enjoyed it, and a lot of what I learned about turns and basic bumps helped me improve a lot last year to get to a low advanced level.

So, fast forward to my 4 lesson pack. I decided this season to sign up for the Black Runner group this time, which is described as "I can ski down most black run, but I want to do so with more style and technique." I thought - yes, this is me! I had my first lesson today and it was the toughest thing I've ever done skiing related. And now I don't know what to do.

Today was about 20 cm of snow overnight, heavy snow with variable visibility all day and fricking cold (it got to a high of -21). First thing we did was do a ski-off between the black and double black group to sort us out - it was on a run I know fairly well and that I've skied in similar conditions - powder on top of soft bumps, some chop. I was put in the black group (exactly where I thought I should be) with 5 other people. Because it was a 'lots of snow' day, we spent the whole morning on a powder lesson. Yes, I was excited about this. We go up the giant Divide lift, visiblility is pretty crappy, and theres nothing but untracked in front of us the whole way down for about 700m of vertical! Turns out I was the only one who had never really skied untracked powder deeper than about 15 cms, and at least 1 of my classmates had already been heliskiing. So, after a few quick instructions, we skied down. For me and my level, I thought I did amazingly well. But I was definitely the slowest in the group, and the least graceful. Then, we went up Divide again, skied the line next to our previous one (no one had been there since) antd then did a harder line with fresh on big bumps. Basically, we repeated this 5 times moving over further and further into a black bowl on the side of the mountain until lunch. By the last run of the morning - I was totally wiped (we probably did about 3500 m of vertical that morning), and it was definitely clear to me that I was the worst skier in the group. Everyone was swooping down so elegantly and so quickly! I felt like I was constantly apologizing for holding everyone up.
To make a long story short, we spent the afternoon practicing turns in bumps and chop - including the amazing 'holding out poles in front of me while skiing a bump run' drill down Goat's Eye. At the end of the day, I was exhausted, thrilled with all that I had skied today BUT also had my confidence shaken completely.

Ok - so why was my confidence shaken? Well, to put it bluntly, I feel like everyone in the group is SO much of a better skier than me. I know I pushed myself more because of this (this is a good thing), but I both constantly felt like I was holding them back and I also was having constant mild panics about what we were going to be doing next. I definitely felt like I learned a lot, but it also made me apprehensive about next week's lessons.

I talked to my instructor about this - and he did say this was an unusually strong black group - as he put, I have the same technique as everyone else, just a lot less experience (I started skiing about 4 seasons ago as some of you may remember). He is going to talk to the blue runner instructor to find out what theyre doing, but he told me that he thinks that most people in that group are a low blue level.

So...my two questions: 1) how hard should a lesson really be? basically, most of what we did today really challenged me, both mentally and physically. my thighs concur I estimate we did about 6-7000 meters of vertical in (for me) very challenging terrain and conditions. should i be worrying about what we're going to do next? and 2) what should i do?

It seems like I'm stuck between a really good black group and a not-so-good blue group. I don't think the physical challenge is the bigger worry for me - but it's the group situation and the worry of what's coming next. I want to be challenged, but I don't want to stress out about lessons. On the one hand, I will probably learn a lot with the black group, but do I have to be panicking about everything in the lesson at all times? And do I have to constantly be worried about keeping up speed wise to the rest of my group? How hard and challenging should a lesson really be? Should I demand some sort of resolution to this from the ski school?

 

[CarverJill]

I think that's just what can happen in a group lesson. You never know what the group will be like and you happen to have been stuck with a bunch of other people that are in a slightly different level than you. How much were you really holding the group up? If there were only 5 of you I would think they would understand that everyone isn't going to be at exactly the same level. Just as you have to work to keep up with them they need to slow down a little for you. If the instructor doesn't suggest anything different for you I don't think you need to worry about the others. If you find that the instructor is pushing you to do something you don't want to do, just tell him/her. Will the group be exactly the same next week?

 

[marzNC]

I talked to my instructor about this - and he did say this was an unusually strong black group - as he put, I have the same technique as everyone else, just a lot less experience (I started skiing about 4 seasons ago as some of you may remember). He is going to talk to the blue runner instructor to find out what theyre doing, but he told me that he thinks that most people in that group are a low blue level.

It's partially a question about what you want to get out of the multi-week lesson experience. Fair to say that skiing deep powder with confidence takes mileage as well as having the fundamentals fully ingrained. That doesn't happen in a few seasons. Can take a season or two to ingrain the more subtle aspects of advanced technique. I say that as an old advanced skier who started taking lessons pretty regularly from PSIA L3 instructors five years ago, both at my small home hill and at destination resorts. I'm still working on stuff my local coach told me five seasons ago. Certainly working on what I did in lessons 2-3 seasons ago.

When I started taking semi-private lessons with a friends during ski trips (1-2 weeks) to places like JH and Alta, I usually did the lesson(s) towards the beginning of a trip so that there is plenty of time to work on whatever we cover in a lesson. Most people don't get to ski deep powder more than a few times each season. I've had perhaps four lessons on a powder day. Two were during the north Tahoe 3-morning clinic set up during a Diva Week in 2010. While that was a very good clinic, I probably retained the least amount of info because I didn't understand as much, didn't know how to practice, and didn't take another lesson for almost ten years.

Did the other students seem impatient? If so, sounds like someone was looking for a guide not technique improvement. At least on a powder morning.

Did the instructor have suggestions for other students in terms of technique? In particular in the afternoon?

When I started taking lessons with my ski buddy Bill, he looked perfectly comfortable on any challenging terrain. He was skiing steep bump/tree runs at Aspen Mountain in high school and was over 60 when he first started taking semi-private lessons with me. But he was skiing the hard way using technique he ingrained on straight skis. I couldn't tell but the L3 instructors could see the flaws immediately. When we started taking lessons at Alta (just him and me), it took a season or two for the adjustments to his stance to make better use of the design of his skis to make sense. I'm pretty sure that when it's a powder day, he's not worrying about technique and just does what comes naturally. Since he can ski deep powder with mid-fat skis, he looks great and has a very good time. It's fascinating to watch him switch between old and current technique on easier terrain. These days he only reverts deliberately. Especially after doing a Taos Ski Week (6 mornings in a row) last season.

 

[marzNC]

It seems like I'm stuck between a really good black group and a not-so-good blue group. I don't think the physical challenge is the bigger worry for me - but it's the group situation and the worry of what's coming next. I want to be challenged, but I don't want to stress out about lessons. On the one hand, I will probably learn a lot with the black group, but do I have to be panicking about everything in the lesson at all times? And do I have to constantly be worried about keeping up speed wise to the rest of my group? How hard and challenging should a lesson really be? Should I demand some sort of resolution to this from the ski school?

When I did the NASTC Diva clinic, I was in the middle group. I was low advanced with no fear issues. The least experienced group that week were intermediates and was a bigger group. I was the slowest in the middle advanced group. Hadn't had a lesson for a long time and wasn't an advanced skier when I was having lessons as a teen (2 seasons). The second and third days were powder days. I really wanted to learn to ski deep powder so wasn't about to change groups. Of course, being for Divas only made it less stressful to be the slowest. Plus I tend not to be that much of a worrier. My last run at Squaw was in deep powder when I was skiing with a ski buddy. Was a more challenging run because I went to the wrong lift. But I managed to link together some powder turns in thigh deep snow. Could not have done that with the clinic experience.

While you certainly should be letting the instructor know how you feel, unless the ski school is willing to commit a third instructor to the multi-week program, the decision on which group will suit you best is more based on your short and long term goals.

The one advantage of taking lessons at a small hill with no off-piste terrain is that everyone has to be on groomers. I'm doing the first half of the multi-week program at Massanutten this season (4 of 8 session). Did the Gold Clinic (Sun mornings) the first time it was offered a few years ago. At this point, I'm better than the other students partially because I get to ski at big mountains more often. A few have never skied out west. My coach I started working with five years ago is the instructor. I learn a great deal from observing what he does with the other students.

 

[Jilly]

You did exactly what you needed to do in having the conversation with the instructor. That said....I found out the first year we did the women's camp at WB that it was physically hard. They ran us all over the place and places that I wasn't confident in. But I needed to do it. The next year, when at lunch I was asked to go up a group, I declined. Because I knew on Sunday by 2 pm I'd be toast.

So now, if there is a slower group at the same level, that's what I would do. You need to enjoy the day, but still be challenged to learn.

 

[Cyprissa]

Excellent advice above and I’m not at that point in my skiing yet to add much since this is just my second season back after a long break. BUT I will say that mostly likely you are your own worst critic and the other group members were not fazed at all. We women can be especially hard on ourselves. If you decide to stay in this group, then try not to compare yourself to the others or worry about speed. It doesn’t sound like you are the slowest skier on the planet (that might be me) or anything.

 

[Skier31]

It appears there are a number of factors going on.

1. Challenging snow conditions/visibility.
2. Speed
3. Experience

I think that all of us have preferences as to skill level within a group. Some people do better if they are pushed for the whole lesson, others are more comfortsble if they are the "best" in the group. The overall pace of groups can be a factor especially if we feel we are holding people back. Those feeling can create anxiety which can inhibit performance.

I agree with Carver Jill. This is a group lesson and the instructor has indicated you are in the right group. Ski your speed and learn as much as you can. I think you are going to take your skiing to a new level.

 

[2ski2moro]

I agree with what the others have said, but I feel your pain. When I am the slowest person in the group, it gets to me. The Apology Reel starts playing in my head and I don't concentrate on the task at hand because I am focused on them, not me. BTW, I describe my skiing as capable of skiing black runs, but if I were put in that group, I would not be able to keep up in that group either.

It's happened to me. When I finally ski up to the group, they have been resting while waiting for me. The instructor has had a chance to talk with them about their technique. Once I get there, they are more than ready to get moving again, and I have no chance to catch my breath nor listen to the instructor's critique.

I think there is a solution. In my opinion, if you believe that you are in the wrong group, you need to go to the ski school, rather than the instructor, to get it sorted out. If the Blue Group is not serving your needs and desires because your skills are beyond theirs, and the Black group makes a jump on the skill level you are not comfortable with, the ski school needs to know.

You have paid for the class. Your expectations are not unreasonable. I believe that the ski school has an obligation to accommodate your needs. You will never know until you ask.

 

[newboots]

The Apology Reel!

I guess many of us have one of these, ready on a moment's notice to start playing in our heads.

 

[SkiBilly]

Wow! You did sign up for a hard lesson. 5.5 hours on blacks, even in the best conditions is going to be an athletic day. No escaping that fact.

The bummer was that you were the one at the bottom of the group. I hate being "the worst skier " in the group for exactly the same reasons you outlined. If you had been in the middle to top of the group you would still feel exhausted but I don't think your confidence would be impacted as it is.

Out of the 5, what place did you ski down? Did you go last? It sounds like you did as you felt you were holding every body up. Next time, I would ski down first or second behind the instructor.

 

[Christy]

I think you've gotten great advice, and I especially agree with the suggestion that you go back to ski school and tell them that there isn't an appropriate group for you. And I think that is their fault. You were with 5 others? 6 is too big in a lesson group. Whistler does Max 4. I do group lessons at Sun Valley and I often get a private, or maybe there is 1 other person. They typically have a bunch of instructors at the meeting spot, and they use as many as they need to make sure everyone is getting appropriate instruction. The chances of 6 random people having the same needs and getting good instruction are slim.

 

[Blondeinabmw]

I'm at the same point in my skiing as you, I think - low advanced, comfortable on black diamond, ungroomed terrain, but regress to backseat ugly skiing whenever I'm challenged by something new, bumpy, deep, narrow and steep. Or I'll skip it altogether and find another way down. I'm in-between levels most of the time, and the past few I've taken have been either wonderful (and quickly erased from my mind following a concussion later that evening!) or downright miserable. That feeling where you're holding everyone back, exhausted and though you're learning, it isn't quite clicking isn't fun. I find that regular, honest communication with the instructor is absolutely necessary, explaining my goals and expectations clearly. I try to be up front with them before I'm even grouped, before we head out for the first run, and I also try to sit next to the instructor every few lift rides so I have a chance to speak to them one on one. I will say that when I have these challenges on new terrain, my skiing on what I am more familiar with improves dramatically the next time around, and I finally achieve that effortless feeling everyone loves. The techniques are essentially the same but its putting all of them into practice that is the challenge.
As to how difficult a lesson should be, I've had "lessons" where 2 of the four students are repeat customers and just want to see more of the mountain. I've had lessons where 2 of the four students are young, aggressive and ready to be able to conquer the hike-to bowls with their buddies, and want to do whatever they can to muscle through challenges. I've had lessons where they've split the group with another instructor after lunch. And I've had lessons where I've pushed my self to the point where my body tells me "ENOUGH! (for today at least)". As I've improved, I will say that the most beneficial lessons become increasingly rare, and I prefer to ski with an instructor I know and like rather than one who is new to me. I try a new one every so often, but usually end up disappointed.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

I think that's just what can happen in a group lesson. You never know what the group will be like and you happen to have been stuck with a bunch of other people that are in a slightly different level than you. How much were you really holding the group up? If there were only 5 of you I would think they would understand that everyone isn't going to be at exactly the same level. Just as you have to work to keep up with them they need to slow down a little for you. If the instructor doesn't suggest anything different for you I don't think you need to worry about the others. If you find that the instructor is pushing you to do something you don't want to do, just tell him/her. Will the group be exactly the same next week?

Yeah - I know that this is deal with group lessons. In terms of holding the group up - I would say that, generally, I wasn't more than 20-25 turns behind the group. But there were a few times on some of the more (for me) challenging runs where everyone was done and waiting at the bottom for minutes - the worst time was probably somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes.

I don't know if the group will be the same next week - theoretically it is - you're supposed to be with the same instructor and same group for 4 weeks. However, my instructor also said he was going to talk to the ski school about possibly opening up a group in between, as the blue group right now is too large (9 people, there's only supposed to be a maximum of 8). So I guess I'll find out next week.

He didn't suggest I switch groups necessarily, but he did say that that there was a split in the group (ie me and the rest of the group).

 

[marzNC]

As I've improved, I will say that the most beneficial lessons become increasingly rare, and I prefer to ski with an instructor I know and like rather than one who is new to me. I try a new one every so often, but usually end up disappointed.

Are you talking about random group lessons? I've had a good experience as an advanced skier with every PSIA Level 3 instructor I've ever worked with. That includes group lessons with 4-10 people set up as multi-week or a 1-day clinic.

I found the investing the time and money for semi-private lessons with 1-2 friends of similar ability was the most effective approach during trips to big mountains out west. In those cases, I get recommendations for an instructor to start with. But also learned a lot from a random L3 instructor when my regular instructor at Alta was out due to injury.

One reason my friends and I went to Taos last season was for the Ski Week. Two friends did it and wanted to go back for another Ski Week sooner rather than later. So we'll all be doing a Ski Week in Feb. About $200 for 6 mornings in a row with the same instructor. Learn a lot that way.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

Did the other students seem impatient? If so, sounds like someone was looking for a guide not technique improvement. At least on a powder morning.

Did the instructor have suggestions for other students in terms of technique? In particular in the afternoon?

When I started taking lessons with my ski buddy Bill, he looked perfectly comfortable on any challenging terrain. He was skiing steep bump/tree runs at Aspen Mountain in high school and was over 60 when he first started taking semi-private lessons with me. But he was skiing the hard way using technique he ingrained on straight skis. I couldn't tell but the L3 instructors could see the flaws immediately. When we started taking lessons at Alta (just him and me), it took a season or two for the adjustments to his stance to make better use of the design of his skis to make sense. I'm pretty sure that when it's a powder day, he's not worrying about technique and just does what comes naturally. Since he can ski deep powder with mid-fat skis, he looks great and has a very good time. It's fascinating to watch him switch between old and current technique on easier terrain. These days he only reverts deliberately. Especially after doing a Taos Ski Week (6 mornings in a row) last season.

Thanks @marzNC - it's always helpful hearing about your experience The other students never said anything to me about holding them up, but there was a general mood that people wanted to be skiing more. When we were doing some ski-offs, they were complaining about waiting around. When were were doing slower exercises, a few were unhappy. And when we did one drill with the blue group on turns on a blue run, several of them were really unhappy about the 'slow skiers'. So, they never said anything to me, but listening to how annoyed they were at being made to go slowly in general didn't make me feel so great.

Overall, I thought the instructor was pretty good - especially when we got out of the morning powder and did a lot of technical work in the afternoon. There wasn't much beyond general feedback about stance and centring when we were in powder. But then in the afternoon, there was a really good mix of group feedback and individual feedback from the instructor. We did do one part of a run individually and he watched us and then gave each of us a set of detailed comments. I found those quite helpful - angulation, separation, some turn comments and facing the fall line. And then he had us do a couple of runs where were only focusing on his individual feedback. So I thought the instruction was good overall. I definitely would say that most of us in the group were working on the same technique issues.

So I guess, it's not really that I feel this group is that far technically above me - but I guess it just might be me feeling slow and something about the group dynamic.

 

[elemmac]

I don't know if the group will be the same next week - theoretically it is - you're supposed to be with the same instructor and same group for 4 weeks. However, my instructor also said he was going to talk to the ski school about possibly opening up a group in between, as the blue group right now is too large (9 people, there's only supposed to be a maximum of 8). So I guess I'll find out next week.

This sounds like it would be best case, for them to open up another group. Maybe call the day before you're supposed to be there, and ask if they did. If they don't, then ask if they'll substitute the remaining three weeks for a private with the instructor on a different day (since you said he was helpful, but the group dynamic wasn't) or if they run another set of lessons later in the season, hope for a different group dynamic.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

It's happened to me. When I finally ski up to the group, they have been resting while waiting for me. The instructor has had a chance to talk with them about their technique. Once I get there, they are more than ready to get moving again, and I have no chance to catch my breath nor listen to the instructor's critique.

I think there is a solution. In my opinion, if you believe that you are in the wrong group, you need to go to the ski school, rather than the instructor, to get it sorted out. If the Blue Group is not serving your needs and desires because your skills are beyond theirs, and the Black group makes a jump on the skill level you are not comfortable with, the ski school needs to know.

You have paid for the class. Your expectations are not unreasonable. I believe that the ski school has an obligation to accommodate your needs. You will never know until you ask.

YES! this is it! this is EXACTLY what happened. They're all chatting and getting feedback, and when I get there, I get the bullet point about the conversation, theyre rested and I have to keep moving. This is exactly what it is.

Yes, I think this is what I will do depending on what happens at the next lesson - contact the ski school and talk to them about it.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

Wow! You did sign up for a hard lesson. 5.5 hours on blacks, even in the best conditions is going to be an athletic day. No escaping that fact.

The bummer was that you were the one at the bottom of the group. I hate being "the worst skier " in the group for exactly the same reasons you outlined. If you had been in the middle to top of the group you would still feel exhausted but I don't think your confidence would be impacted as it is.

Out of the 5, what place did you ski down? Did you go last? It sounds like you did as you felt you were holding every body up. Next time, I would ski down first or second behind the instructor.

Yeah - I agree. I do think the "worst skier" position is a difficult to be in.

With skiing down, I actually changed it up. The first time we skied down, everybody passed me, some in a very close way, so that was when the instructor said that it was important to give everyone space. Sometimes I went last, sometimes first or in the middle, but invariably ended up pretty much last one at the bottom.

The instructor didn't make us go one by one, he asked us to stay about 5-6 turns apart, and all that meant is that the person who went after me invariably passed me at some point. We were in big open alpine terrain for most of the day, so it wasn't difficult to pass someone.

 

[Albertan ski girl]

I think you've gotten great advice, and I especially agree with the suggestion that you go back to ski school and tell them that there isn't an appropriate group for you. And I think that is their fault. You were with 5 others? 6 is too big in a lesson group. Whistler does Max 4. I do group lessons at Sun Valley and I often get a private, or maybe there is 1 other person. They typically have a bunch of instructors at the meeting spot, and they use as many as they need to make sure everyone is getting appropriate instruction. The chances of 6 random people having the same needs and getting good instruction are slim.

Yeah, 6 is the max number allowed for this lessson set. And all of the groups were about 6, except for the blue runner group - they were 8. Most of the day lessons here are 8 max - but this program has a 6 max rule.

I'm at the same point in my skiing as you, I think - low advanced, comfortable on black diamond, ungroomed terrain, but regress to backseat ugly skiing whenever I'm challenged by something new, bumpy, deep, narrow and steep. Or I'll skip it altogether and find another way down. I'm in-between levels most of the time, and the past few I've taken have been either wonderful (and quickly erased from my mind following a concussion later that evening!) or downright miserable. That feeling where you're holding everyone back, exhausted and though you're learning, it isn't quite clicking isn't fun. I find that regular, honest communication with the instructor is absolutely necessary, explaining my goals and expectations clearly. I try to be up front with them before I'm even grouped, before we head out for the first run, and I also try to sit next to the instructor every few lift rides so I have a chance to speak to them one on one. I will say that when I have these challenges on new terrain, my skiing on what I am more familiar with improves dramatically the next time around, and I finally achieve that effortless feeling everyone loves. The techniques are essentially the same but its putting all of them into practice that is the challenge.
As to how difficult a lesson should be, I've had "lessons" where 2 of the four students are repeat customers and just want to see more of the mountain. I've had lessons where 2 of the four students are young, aggressive and ready to be able to conquer the hike-to bowls with their buddies, and want to do whatever they can to muscle through challenges. I've had lessons where they've split the group with another instructor after lunch. And I've had lessons where I've pushed my self to the point where my body tells me "ENOUGH! (for today at least)". As I've improved, I will say that the most beneficial lessons become increasingly rare, and I prefer to ski with an instructor I know and like rather than one who is new to me. I try a new one every so often, but usually end up disappointed.

Thanks @Blondeinabmw - I definitely took a few chair lift rides up with the instructor, and that was useful. We did talk short and long-term goals, so he knows where I am. And I think he definitely knows my concerns about this particular group. So I do feel that is ok. But yes, I do agree with you that lessons do vary dramatically. I guess I just haven't ever felt this out of place in a lesson before I definitely have noticed on this website that most people end up preferring repeated lessons with the same instructor and in a smaller or private setting. So maybe that is something to think about.

 

[SkiBilly]

The instructor didn't make us go one by one, he asked us to stay about 5-6 turns apart, and all that meant is that the person who went after me invariably passed me at some point. We were in big open alpine terrain for most of the day, so it wasn't difficult to pass someone.

Huh?? How on earth can the instructor give instruction when he/she has to watch 6 people skiing all at once? That's a total rip off. And then as you were the last one down you didn't get as much feedback as every body else? Double rip off. I would definitely complain to the ski school.