High speed pivot slip?

[Pequenita]

I'm confused though.

1) the definition of pivot slip was "linked side slip...".

I always thought side slip has edge components. That's how we slow down in tight space, is it not?

2) I can keep the ski flat by standing tall and facing the tip. But it's really awkward to NOT tip the ski on edge when facing sideways.

Granted, that might be part of my problem of why I can't seem to be able to do a flat 360!

I think you've identified the source of your challenge. I don't think of the side slip as a slowing down or stopping mechanism. For me, it's a "get out of this hairy terrain" tool, aka, movement. When you are actively side slipping, your edges are released. When the edges are set, you're no longer side slipping.

ETA: But, to bring this back to the OP's issue, to be completely frank and not as discouragement, please get a lesson if you're interested in figuring out what you are/are not doing, especially if you're the type of learner that likes having a name for everything that you're doing. Given your ability level that you described in another thread, I don't think you're doing pivot slips; it's likely more of a smear.

 

[abc]

I don't think of the side slip as a slowing down or stopping mechanism. For me, it's a "get out of this hairy terrain" tool, aka, movement. When you are actively side slipping, your edges are released. When the edges are set, you're no longer side slipping.

Well, not quite. If the edge is release, I would pick up speed real fast!

Usually, the edge was engaged to a degree in order to maintain a constant speed on sloping ground.

 

[bounceswoosh]

No problem bounceswoosh! but I will ask- How do you release an edge when you are not on the edge??

The drill is "pivot slips" and if you watch the video that skier31 posted it shows NO edging! Hence NO releasing of the edges! Again it's a "Rotary Movement" drill not an "Edging Movement" drill.

If I desperately wanted to be in the right, I could point out that typically I start this drill in the middle of a slope, and so before I start, my edges must be engaged into the slope just so that I'm not sliding down the hill ... but yeah. I see what you're saying. Obviously word choice is important here, and I think I meant what you said, but what I said implied something very different. Pivot slips = a drill where you do not apply your edges (ie, your bases are flat on the snow).

Anyhoo. What I need is to talk less and practice more. This thread and the related research has helped me realize that a big issue I have with pivot slips is fore/aft balance - so that may help me correct my "drift" problem. I have been entirely focused on the not-edging aspect and not thinking about my body position in this drill. So even if this isn't what the OP was talking about, thanks for furthering my understanding!

 

[litterbug]

How do I know if I am doing this " High speed pivot slip" or actually carving?
It feel like I am carving...Every turn i make i feel the inside edge of my downhill ski cutting in the snow.

OK, first of all, a purely carved turn is like a griffon--well described but nonexistent. And if you were fortunate enough to be able to do a pivot slip at high speed, you wouldn't actually be turning; you'd just be moving your skis back and forth as your body moved in a straight line down the hill (the flat skis being pivoted would be what slowed you down).

If your edge is turning you, you're somewhere on the spectrum between slipping and carving. More slipping = more speed control, but it also may hold you back or prevent you from getting all you can out of your turn. More carving = faster, smoother, maybe more powerful, but a lot more effort needed to change your turn shape.

ETA: what your buds may have meant is that at least at some point in the turn, you're twisting your skis rather than letting the sidecut turn you or using edge control to shape the turn. Maybe.

Someone please correct all the wrong things I just said! I just wanted to bring it back to the OP's question of if it's OK to be slipping part of a turn!!

 

[Jilly]

Let's go back the wording - Pivot Slips
Pivot - you cannot be on edge to pivot. Pivot is changing direction. You change direction by moving the feet and legs. The video is great, you see the skis changing direction under the body. The skis are flat.

Slip - no edges at all. Slip is moving down the fall line with no edges. If you apply an edge then that is a "hockey stop".

I just spent a 1/2 day doing these as a kids exercise. We call it windshield wipers. It's used for stance and balance and pivoting skills. It helps separate the upper and lower body from each other. The upper body faces downhill all the time, the lower body "pivots" under it. No edges needed.

Now I see what falling leaf is. CSIA doesn't call if anything. That is a stance and balance excerise for fore and aft balance. With this exercise you find your center. If you are too far forward the tips will go first. If you're too far back the tail will go first. The goal is to slide sideways perpendicular to the slope.

Again these are exercises to correct a problem or reinforce a skill (like pivoting).

 

[snow addict]

I think whether you will use edges might depend on snow condition. I did this drill on fairly steep hard pack runs and there were times especially in the beginning when just pivoting wouldn't provide me with enough speed control, in which case even that actual pivot slips don't involve any edging, after few turns I'd edge and stop, but from that point I would start the drill all over again by rolling skis flat at 90 degrees to the fall line. Not a big deal, it will all come together eventually. In actual pivot slips edges are not used at all, so if you start from the top and continue non-stop all the way, there is nothing to release. Body position is very important, think where your belly button is facing, also it helps to have two parallel lines drawn that you cannot cross, as if in a corridor, with more practice the corridor will be just the lendth of your skis and going pretty much straight down. We had such a crappy winter last season and this drill was one of the things that kept me entertained when off piste was too rocky and moguls became the size of tanks and icy.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Now I see what falling leaf is. CSIA doesn't call if anything. That is a stance and balance excerise for fore and aft balance. With this exercise you find your center. If you are too far forward the tips will go first. If you're too far back the tail will go first. The goal is to slide sideways perpendicular to the slope.

I know I've already muddied the waters quite a bit in this thread, but just as a note - the falling leaf I'm familiar with is intentional fore/aft movement. Specifically, aft. So for example, if you realize that your line in the bumps is going to take you straight into a tree, you can flatten your skis and allow yourself to drift backwards to give yourself other turn options. I'm not familiar with a version that has you just sliding sideways down the slope.

 

[Robyn]

Let's go back the wording - Pivot Slips
Pivot - you cannot be on edge to pivot. Pivot is changing direction. You change direction by moving the feet and legs. The video is great, you see the skis changing direction under the body. The skis are flat.

Slip - no edges at all. Slip is moving down the fall line with no edges. If you apply an edge then that is a "hockey stop".

I just spent a 1/2 day doing these as a kids exercise. We call it windshield wipers. It's used for stance and balance and pivoting skills. It helps separate the upper and lower body from each other. The upper body faces downhill all the time, the lower body "pivots" under it. No edges needed.

Now I see what falling leaf is. CSIA doesn't call if anything. That is a stance and balance excerise for fore and aft balance. With this exercise you find your center. If you are too far forward the tips will go first. If you're too far back the tail will go first. The goal is to slide sideways perpendicular to the slope.

Again these are exercises to correct a problem or reinforce a skill (like pivoting).

I agree with your take on the pivot slips. Certainly to begin the exercise you release your edge but the actual exercise has no edging.

However, falling leaf purposefully has fore and aft movement to help you find the balance. You're experimenting with what your change in balance does to the skis. Your goal is not a straight line, hence the name falling leaf, you kind of flutter down the slope.

 

[Jilly]

Your goal is not a straight line, hence the name falling leaf, you kind of flutter down the slope

Yes, in the exercise the goal is not a straight line. But if you are centered and not trying to change your balance, one way or the other, you will achieve a straight line.

 

[Robyn]

Yes, in the exercise the goal is not a straight line. But if you are centered and not trying to change your balance, one way or the other, you will achieve a straight line.

But you're not trying to do this in the falling leaf exercise, you are in fact trying to change your balance.

 

[DLXLDY]

Think of a kid twirling a popsicle stick back and forth on the kitchen table going from one side to the other. Now just imagine that on a slanted table. (sorry if my analogies confuse you more...my brain works in weird ways).

 

[litterbug]

We had such a crappy winter last season and this drill was one of the things that kept me entertained when off piste was too rocky and moguls became the size of tanks and icy.

Funny thing--the hard smooth snow seemed great for that kind of thing today; all I had to do was find a steep enough slope and go to it. I started by sideslipping straight downhill, not the little bits I usually do to get a better angle, but slipping evenly for a long distance, and worked on each side; then I played with moving my weight forward to move down at a diagonal, then backward to go the other way. Not surprisingly, some were easier than others and I saw that I could use the sequence to work on my balance and proprioception, if that's what this is.

I did manage a few falling-leaf-like slips but by then I was getting cold and started skiing to warm up. I felt more aware of when I was slipping more or edging more, and tried to be more deliberate about it, and ended up, on day two of the season, making the same runs I had last spring, with nice round c's of different sizes to control my speed. So maybe bad snow isn't always so bad.

DLXLDY, I like the popsicle stick image! I did try it, and almost thought I was doing it, but I'm not used to actively trying to rotate my skis (not that I don't, I just don't do that exaggerated thing), so it felt weird and I have no idea what I was actually doing.

Another funny thing: I started this on the green slopes, where the most promising areas were under the lift. Around my third ride up I noticed a lot of people by themselves trying the same thing. Maybe I had a good influence on someone?

Bottom line: I'm so glad we have these chats!

 

[geargrrl]

We've always called this "windshield wipers" too.

 

[SkiBam]

What I've heard referred to as "windshield wipers" involves kind of swishing your tails from side to side in short-radius turns. (Not really the way you WANT to be doing these turns.) Interesting, the different terminologies you come across in skiing.

As for falling leaf, I understand it to mean the fore-aft movement; if you're not getting forward and backward movement as you slide down the hill, then I would say you're just side-slipping. At least that's my understanding.

 

[Pequenita]

As for falling leaf, I understand it to mean the fore-aft movement; if you're not getting forward and backward movement as you slide down the hill, then I would say you're just side-slipping. At least that's my understanding.

Yes - that's my understanding of both drills as well.

@abc, I think the issue is more concepts/terms than anything else. The reason I don't consider side-slipping as a "way to slow down" is because when you are side-slipping, your skis aren't in a position that they would naturally be in while regular skiing. I know what you mean about applying the edges to control speed, but that's not a pure side slip. Personally, when I side slip down part of a run (i.e., not doing a drill), I call it "surviving." But, it's possible that we're just quibbling about words.

 

[Jilly]

SkiBam - we know Pivot slips as Braquage. Took me awhile to figure it out. I don't think the CSIA has anything akin to "falling leaf". It not something we do in our teaching methods. Mtnxtc???

 

[geargrrl]

Personally, when I side slip down part of a run (i.e., not doing a drill), I call it "surviving."

LOL. Good one, I know just what you mean.

 

[SkiBam]

SkiBam - we know Pivot slips as Braquage. Took me awhile to figure it out. I don't think the CSIA has anything akin to "falling leaf". It not something we do in our teaching methods. Mtnxtc???

Yes, braquage, that's right. As for falling leafs (leaves?), don't know where I picked that up. Don't think it's something I've ever used in a class, but I do it myself sometimes and think it's kind of fun.

 

[DLXLDY]

We've always called this "windshield wipers" too.

I just had a deja vu moment...like 20 year ago deja vu....lol...wow.

 

[dloveski]

Personally, when I side slip down part of a run (i.e., not doing a drill), I call it "surviving." But, it's possible that we're just quibbling about words.

Totally agree. Slide slipping is an important tool, I put these skills to good use down some steeps chutes yesterday when turns were not an option.