Help Needed: Help Understanding Correct Stance/Posture

[Ursula]

I could never be nose over toes.My nose is so big that if I did do that then I'd be so far in the back seat that I would be in the boot!

translation service: "in the boot!" means "in the trunk" (For all the folks who don't speak British or New Zealand) .....

 

[badger]

Ursula, I just watched the video. Great job!!! I had not been following this thread but saw your name attached to it today and knew there would be a terrific piece of advice within...then noticed the video. I'll be up in Big Sky first week of February. Maybe I will have an opportunity to meet you.

 

[tesdavis]

One of my early ski instructors (think 1970s) always said "Water your pole plants"! Meaning that the initiation of a turn begins with planting your pole downhill. She also taught me to keep my upper body (eyes, shoulders, and hands) facing downhill, using the lower body to complete the turn. She taught me to practice lifting my uphill ski off the snow to keep my weight on the downhill ski during a turn. I'm sure there are more modern techniques to teach skiing but these methods have stuck with me and have been a great help even today.

 

[Jilly]

Well, don't use the step method of lifting the uphill ski, but weight on the downhill is still there. The CSIA technique is leading with the lower body...ie the feet go first.

 

[santacruz skier]

One of my early ski instructors (think 1970s) always said "Water your pole plants"! Meaning that the initiation of a turn begins with planting your pole downhill. She also taught me to keep my upper body (eyes, shoulders, and hands) facing downhill, using the lower body to complete the turn. She taught me to practice lifting my uphill ski off the snow to keep my weight on the downhill ski during a turn. I'm sure there are more modern techniques to teach skiing but these methods have stuck with me and have been a great help even today.

I learned when you did and it took me years to stop lifting the uphill ski.....

 

[canski]

Great discussion.
As a friend (and amazing skier) once said....'Bend your knees at your ankles'. A useful thought for me. And I have dorsiflexion and knee and glute issues on my 'bad' side.

 

[AltaEgo]

Have you tried having someone video you as you ski past them? When you look at yourself, you will know the corrections you need to make. I also find skiing at high noon where my shadow is directly downhill gives me great feedback.

 

[SallyCat]

Have you tried having someone video you as you ski past them? When you look at yourself, you will know the corrections you need to make. I also find skiing at high noon where my shadow is directly downhill gives me great feedback.

That's a great idea; will definitely try it. I've watched video of myself whitewater paddling, and it was extremely illuminating.

 

[snow addict]

Correct stance is the one you are the strongest with while your legs are being free to move.

 

[bounceswoosh]

FWIW, my instructor today commented, similar to what @Ursula said, that too much was made of flattening the spine, and that it doesn't necessarily follow natural anatomy. I told him that I thought I was arching my spine - not a good thing - when making turns, esp. if I feel like I want to slow down. He demonstrated pretty rapidly that the arching was compensation for insufficient bending of the knee (and related anatomy, but knee is a good shorthand).

 

[Obrules15]

I just wanted to chime in with how important individual anatomy is to this issue. I struggled for years with my stance an only with my understanding of biomechanics and physics have I been able to work it out.

I tried a bunch of different things that were recommended not realizing that I had limited dorsiflexion which affected my ability to flex at the ankles. The dorsiflexion issue got fixed with a heel lift but things were still not quite right when I realized my femur length in comparison to my tib/fib length automatically put me in the back seat.

I've known for years I am proportioned oddly but only recently did I equate my skiing troubles to my proportions. I am 5'4" with a 31.5" inseam, but my feet still dangle in chairs. I wear petite tops & need pants in long sizes. What that translates into is a very long thigh that distributes my COM very far in the backseat and no upper body to balance it out. So my setup "has" to be different than most. I now have a boot with a little more forward lean than before (16 degrees instead of 12), plus a heel lift to help w/dorsiflexion, and 6mm of ramp delta on my bindings.

That setup has been life changing because I'm no longer fighting myself. Many of the things I did before were based on general advice or recommendations that worked for most people, and therefore were an absolute disaster for me. I really believe individualization and customization is a godsend if you are struggling. I would have quit skiing for the 3rd time if I hadn't gotten this worked out.

 

[echo_VT]

I just wanted to chime in with how important individual anatomy is to this issue. I struggled for years with my stance an only with my understanding of biomechanics and physics have I been able to work it out.

I tried a bunch of different things that were recommended not realizing that I had limited dorsiflexion which affected my ability to flex at the ankles. The dorsiflexion issue got fixed with a heel lift but things were still not quite right when I realized my femur length in comparison to my tib/fib length automatically put me in the back seat.

I've known for years I am proportioned oddly but only recently did I equate my skiing troubles to my proportions. I am 5'4" with a 31.5" inseam, but my feet still dangle in chairs. I wear petite tops & need pants in long sizes. What that translates into is a very long thigh that distributes my COM very far in the backseat and no upper body to balance it out. So my setup "has" to be different than most. I now have a boot with a little more forward lean than before (16 degrees instead of 12), plus a heel lift to help w/dorsiflexion, and 6mm of ramp delta on my bindings.

That setup has been life changing because I'm no longer fighting myself. Many of the things I did before were based on general advice or recommendations that worked for most people, and therefore were an absolute disaster for me. I really believe individualization and customization is a godsend if you are struggling. I would have quit skiing for the 3rd time if I hadn't gotten this worked out.

wow that's really illuminating - thanks for sharing that

 

[Obrules15]

I've gotten to the point where I tend to get frustrated with general advice that doesn't take into account individual variations. For instance tucking the pelvis will likely work well for someone with normal anatomic relationships who has weak abdominal musculature and therefore sticks their butt out. However, someone with balanced musculature and stance will likely inhibit their movement if they tuck because they're starting at "normal" and tucking into an abnormal posture.

Someone who is considered swayback has excess spinal curvature because of the anatomic relationship of the spinal vertebrae and their size and shape, and just like someone who is scoliotic can't just stand up straight all the tucking and yoga in the world will not change the lengths of the bones and straighten their spine.

The important part here (IMHO) is that every bit of advice and discussion in this thread is correct WHEN APPLIED TO THE RIGHT PERSON. I just think we need to get better as a sport at figuring out how individual variants affect our performance.

I can't tell you how many lessons I took where the instructor gave up on me or rolled their eyes or yelled at me for not being able to do what they were asking, when in fact they never figured out (and I didn't know) I COULDN'T do it.

After 36 years of on again, long periods of off again skiing I'm finally making progress and it is FABULOUS. I just hope I can save others some of the frustration and pain I've gone through.

 

[Powgirl]

I would guess that skiing comes more naturally to some more than others...and alot of that is probably due to anatomical compatibility. Certainly it comes naturally for my SO and his good buddy.

It does not come easy for me...my legs are often in pain when I ski, no matter the boot or ski...and struggle to find/keep my balance because it's more comfortable for me to ride a little back...I don't allow myself to stay there, because I would never make it down some steeps, but it feels better.

I also suspect that heel lifts might be helpful for me...I have some that REI gave me and will try them next week.

How did you correct and make your progress? Did you see a specialist of some type?

 

[bounceswoosh]

I also suspect that heel lifts might be helpful for me...I have some that REI gave me and will try them next week.

You're in Colorado. There are so many good boot fitters here. Why REI?? It would cost you a couple of twenties (maybe) and some time to go to an actual boot fitter. Did you have a bad experience?

 

[Powgirl]

A good and fair question...

I have not personally had a bad experience with a bootfitter, but I know people who have...I know that there are good ones, very good ones, out there, but yes, I'm a bit gunshy.

Thing is, my boots feel gteat...They fit like a glove..I don't have any hotspots, my feet don't move around, they feel snug, comfy and warm...I feel pretty dialed into them. I am considering ordering a higher flex tongue, but with the Intution liner, I feel like they are stiff enough, at least for awhile.

My feet never bother me, but my legs do (arms, too)...and, the more forward I get, the more they hurt...some days are better than others...

I seem to remember someone here mentioning a company in Colorado that evaluates stance, setup, etc. For women...I wouldn't mind checking into that if I can locate their name. Joining a gym would be a good idea...I think I often fool myself that my gardening biz keeps me in good shape...that my yoga and other activities do as well.

I think another issue is my age...and I have nerve damage, from an unknown source...so, really, any physical activity causes discomfort.

 

[bounceswoosh]

@Powgirl A good boot fitter isn't just about feet. It's about flex, about comfort, about ability to drive the boot, all of that.

Maybe you're right and nothing can be done, and that's just that. And yeah, I had terrible experiences with Surefoot, which I don't even want to call a fitter, and I know that sometimes people have had bad experiences even with fitters that others rave about.

I don't know, I just .. I am definitely a person who, when something hurts or isn't working properly, goes after a solution aggressively. I don't accept it. It will be interesting to see how that plays with age ;-) But this doesn't seem like a particularly aggressive step. And I think sometimes, age is blamed when it's really a specific issue.

I would bet that gardening and yoga keep you in very good shape. One of my ski instructor friends has a landscaping business over the summer. As she says, she figures she does 500 squats a day ...

 

[Powgirl]

There is definitely gardening/landscaping shape...even with my crew, its a workout, 5-6 days a week, 10 months a year.

I am used to being pretty aggressive about eliminating discomfort, my health, etc...a big part of my frustration is my nerve tests show significant damage, but I've had multiple MRIs and the source remains a mystery...so, after 4 years, I've kind of given up...and I keep thinking if I can continue to practice and improve my technique, I can power thru it.

It can't hurt to see a boot fitter...even just for an evaluation...so, I should stop being so stubborn!

 

[bounceswoosh]

It can't hurt to see a boot fitter...even just for an evaluation...so, I should stop being so stubborn!

I know a bit about being stubborn ;-) And unfortunately about unexplained pain. Luckily in my case, I have a good protocol in place for the pain that seems to help. Unexplained nerve pain is another matter =/

 

[Obrules15]

How did you correct and make your progress? Did you see a specialist of some type?

It's been a long and rather convoluted journey. I'm the type (now) when I try to learn something I tend to obsess and go all out. I made a decision in the fall of 2014 to really learn to ski well this time. I did a ton of reading and research and talked to hordes of different people, took loads of lessons and asked my instructors more questions than they wanted to answer.

As I would take lessons and not understand or not progress I would research what else was out there and started making incremental changes. My first breakthroughs came from a great local boot fitter who gave me the heel lift. Those boots started to be problematic last year when the liner packed out and I went through a ton of changes trying to figure out why the boots that had worked last season were failing me.

Ultimately I ended up at Harb Ski Systems in Colorado who helped me to understand the biomechanics at work. They made me aware that my boot was too big which meant that with the packed out liner I was being locked into an even more upright stance than my original boots intended.

That was the point I realized how much individual anatomy mattered as my local boot fitter was pretty good, but he put me in a boot that worked well for most of his customers and was OK for me with a new liner but was a disaster for me when the liner packed out and the boots needed to be fastened tighter.

At first HSS just modified my boot trying to make them work (with an intuition liner), but I was having horrible pain because I had to over tighten the boot so it wouldn't slosh around. I finally ended up in a size smaller low volume race oriented boot that doesn't hurt because it is generally so all over tight & enveloping I barely buckle it and could ski with it unbuckled. So no pressure points. Weird, right.

Stance wise when the liner packed out I felt like I lost the benefit of the heel lift so I started trying to figure out what was going on and figured out a boot with a more upright stance will hold you even more upright if tightly buckled but then couldn't get a bigger heel lift in the boot so that's when I ran across the ramp delta concept for bindings.

There was more going on than described but I really don't want to bore you with a five page post and the other stuff relates mostly to a latent knee injury and years of stem christie skiing that I picked up on straight skis in the 70's that wouldn't go away.

I think the most valuable things that I learned and would pass along is don't give up, and don't just assume you suck (as it is I've noticed on this forum women tend to degrade their skill level well below where most men would categorize themselves, I think most men will call themselves experts if they can get down a black run without dying) think about what's going on, ask questions, play devil's advocate.

One of my favorite things to do is ask the question "How could both this expert/instructor/well respected industry person be right and their technique/advice still not work for me". When I look at things from that perspective I get different kinds of answers (actually it just gives me 50 new questions to research which ultimately gives me answers).

Because of my analytical nature and my background, HSS works well for me, and it's the best bootfitting experience I've ever had. However, I can't say they'll work for everybody. They have a very specific and different philosophy and outlook on skiing that can be very controversial. For those in the anti HSS camp, please don't flame me, I'm just saying they are a good fit for me.

I would entreat people to not settle and not give up. To me it's very important to remember that skiing, skis, and skiboots were originally designed for men and it's only relatively recently that Jeannie Thoren made her mark and equipment began to be modified for women (contrast 45-50 years of modern boot/binding technology in development for men with maybe 10+ years of real research and progress in women's skiing needs since the pink it and shrink it era) so lots is still being worked out and much of it is contradictory.

For instance some (including Thoren) say women need ramp delta and heel lifts to deal with the difference in location of their center of mass, but at least two companies have (at least in the past) made modifications to decrease lift or delta because they felt that that put increased strain on the ACL. Knee Bindings has 6mm of ramp delta on their bindings for men but 3 on their bindings for women and I believe part of Volkls major redesign of their women's on piste line a few years ago included reverse ramp delta to reduce the risk of ACL injury in women.

They both have valid arguments, but nobody seeems to talk about what different innovations are trying to do nor be aware of possible interactions, or take care to sort out women and maybe only put women with good dorsiflexion on the Volkl or make sure that women who already have ligament issues look at that set up.

Can you imagine shelling out a ton of money for a special women's ski that gives you reverse delta and special women's boots that give you regular delta. You've gone and spent a fortune not realizing that the innovations you've paid through the nose for are being cancelled out.

Anyway back to general advice, besides not automatically assuming you suck and it must be your fault, I'd also recommend watching video of yourself, and for sure anything an instructor tells you to do while skiing make sure you can do while standing still, and get independent verification (video or a friend who doesn't mind hurting your feelings to confirm you are doing what you think you are doing).

PowGirl, definitely try the lifts, and exactly what type of nerve damage do you have and has anyone had a conversation with you about your gardening supplies & whether anything you use could have neurotoxic effects. If I remember correctly there are some gardening chemicals that might cause problems.

Sorry for the long post............