Help Needed: Help Understanding Correct Stance/Posture

[Kimmyt]

Great work and thanks for putting together the video.

One thing I'd love your thoughts on: in your video you are exhibiting beautiful spinal and pelvic alignment, hence why the pelvic tuck is a bad thing (it brings you into a posteriorly tilted pelvic position). For those who struggle with anterior tilted pelvis when skiing, do you feel like 'tucking' the pelvis can be beneficial in feeling a neutral position, or are there better drills to achieve this?

 

[Gloria]

Great work and thanks for putting together the video.

One thing I'd love your thoughts on: in your video you are exhibiting beautiful spinal and pelvic alignment, hence why the pelvic tuck is a bad thing (it brings you into a posteriorly tilted pelvic position). For those who struggle with anterior tilted pelvis when skiing, do you feel like 'tucking' the pelvis can be beneficial in feeling a neutral position, or are there better drills to achieve this?

One thing I got out of this was simply the cue to commit. Often I think when we find ourselves in this position while skiing it's a fear response. I feel like I might do it when I'm going a little too fast for example.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Thanks, this was really great!

 

[Skisailor]

Great work and thanks for putting together the video.

One thing I'd love your thoughts on: in your video you are exhibiting beautiful spinal and pelvic alignment, hence why the pelvic tuck is a bad thing (it brings you into a posteriorly tilted pelvic position). For those who struggle with anterior tilted pelvis when skiing, do you feel like 'tucking' the pelvis can be beneficial in feeling a neutral position, or are there better drills to achieve this?

Hi Kimmy. Great question. I was able to talk briefly with Ursula about this (literally as she was sitting in the cockpit of the King Air she and her husband fly for a local company, prepping for a flight). Lol.

And this is also interesting for me because I have quite significant lordosis (swayback) and my excessively arched back is a liability of sorts in the ski instructor world.

Anyway - Ursula feels quite strongly that the whole notion of tucking the pelvis in skiing, or in any other sport that involves forward motion for that matter, is very wrong-headed. It reduces your range of motion generally, and particularly important for skiing - limits your leg rotation.

She said that for weight lifting maybe? Or certain static sports there may be a reason to tuck the pelvis. Or - if someone has a functional physical limitation of some sort that limits their ability to flex at the hip - maybe it could be useful. But otherwise, she was adamant that it's a bad idea to tuck the pelvis while skiing. Period. Her opinion.

So then we talked about people like me who have a swayback. I asked her - could it be helpful for me to try to actively tuck the pelvis to get an alignment more like yours?

Her answer? NO!!! For all the reasons stated above. And she explained: "Even with a sway back you can flex your hip socket and the rest of your joints to get your weight over the front part of your foot " So - no reason for even me to tuck my pelvis in. And honestly - playing around with it on the slopes - it's not really possible for me to hold that position for more than a minute at a time. And while "tucking" I'm using muscles that are normally relaxed and ready for balancing and flexing and moving. My skiing gets rigid and everything seems more difficult, less efficient, more tiring.

 

[santacruz skier]

Thank you @Skisailor . I'm also a bit swayback and have 2 bulging discs so it is best for me to maintain a neutral spine and never hunch over!

 

[Jenny]

Thanks for the video, @Ursula and @Skisailor.

So, what would you say the weighting ratio should be outside ski to inside ski in a turn? Because you do keep some on the inside ski, right?

(Considering when to put my boots on and look in the mirror. Thinking this weekend.)

 

[Skisailor]

Thanks for the video, @Ursula and @Skisailor.

So, what would you say the weighting ratio should be outside ski to inside ski in a turn? Because you do keep some on the inside ski, right?

(Considering when to put my boots on and look in the mirror. Thinking this weekend.)

Well, as Ursula says: it depends!

When skiing on groomers, it might be something like 80/20. But in powder and crud? It had better be 50/50 or you'll be in big trouble in a hurry! More equal weighting is also better when skiing bumps.

On the groomers though - whether it's 90/10 or 70/30 is influenced more by personal preference and turn size/shape (maybe 90/10 in larger high speed arcs and 60/40 in short radius turns)

The standard that is advocated by ski instructors these days (on groomed terrain) is unequal weighting, with more weight being directed to the outside ski of the turn. But there is no perfect weight ratio. And no "one perfect" turn.

We work on all kinds of crazy turns, late weight shift, early weight shift, lifting the inside ski, skiing on one leg, carving, pivot slips, etc etc etc The more versatile you are, the more you will be ready to handle whatever the mountain throws at you! So play with it. And have as many turns as you can in your back pocket.

 

[Jenny]

Well, as Ursula says: it depends!

When skiing on groomers, it might be something like 80/20. But in powder and crud? It had better be 50/50 or you'll be in big trouble in a hurry! More equal weighting is also better when skiing bumps.

On the groomers though - whether it's 90/10 or 70/30 is influenced more by personal preference and turn size/shape (maybe 90/10 in larger high speed arcs and 60/40 in short radius turns)

The standard that is advocated by ski instructors these days (on groomed terrain) is unequal weighting, with more weight being directed to the outside ski of the turn. But there is no perfect weight ratio. And no "one perfect" turn.

We work on all kinds of crazy turns, late weight shift, early weight shift, lifting the inside ski, skiing on one leg, carving, pivot slips, etc etc etc The more versatile you are, the more you will be ready to handle whatever the mountain throws at you! So play with it. And have as many turns as you can in your back pocket.

Yeah, should have been more specific on the type of terrain, but in my head I was thinking of what I'm normally on, which is groomers. The reason I was wondering is, I was thinking about my wandering tip problem from last year. Besides making sure I am forward enough, I had been wondering if I had enough weight on my inside ski, BUT I don't want thinking about that to compromise the rest of the stance. So maybe the weight on the inside ski isn't my main problem but working on the stance will help with it, as well as any other issues I have. Hmmm. Wish I could ski now instead of just thinking about it.

 

[Gloria]

I think this video and the advice is 100% solid and I don't want to take away from it but I think it's important to note this.

There is no 100% accurate degree of pelvic tilt. There is only a normal range and that range varies from person to person. The factors that go into this are things like, femur length vs torso length, hip shape including socket orientation and depth etc. If your back hurts that would be an indication that you are out of normal range for you, but if not you may be within a normal range for your body type.

 

[Powgirl]

You're amazing, Ursula...thank you, and to Laura, too. I must be a visual learner, because I have read about matching angles and was not really getting it...but your video made a whole lot of sense to me.

I did try tucking this weekend, and it wasn't very helpful, and now I understand why...I really think my stance is the biggest thing holding me back.

I suppose the best way to practice this is in front of a mirror and tune into how your body feels when in the correct stance.

I also think I've been guilty of pressuring vs weighting.

Thank you!!

 

[Skier31]

I suppose the best way to practice this is in front of a mirror and tune into how your body feels when in the correct stance.



Thank you!!

Agree 100%. I have been working on this particular aspect of my skiing. It feels like I am doing much more than I am actually doing. Looking in a mirror can help you see how much angle you have.

You can also use shadows if you are skiing in certain places. Have a friend video you with your iphone. Try the extremes and see what happens.

I like standing up tall and this has been very difficult but I have noticed a difference in my skiing.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Hi Kimmy. Great question. I was able to talk briefly with Ursula about this (literally as she was sitting in the cockpit of the King Air she and her husband fly for a local company, prepping for a flight). Lol.

And this is also interesting for me because I have quite significant lordosis (swayback) and my excessively arched back is a liability of sorts in the ski instructor world.

Anyway - Ursula feels quite strongly that the whole notion of tucking the pelvis in skiing, or in any other sport that involves forward motion for that matter, is very wrong-headed. It reduces your range of motion generally, and particularly important for skiing - limits your leg rotation.

She said that for weight lifting maybe? Or certain static sports there may be a reason to tuck the pelvis. Or - if someone has a functional physical limitation of some sort that limits their ability to flex at the hip - maybe it could be useful. But otherwise, she was adamant that it's a bad idea to tuck the pelvis while skiing. Period. Her opinion.

So then we talked about people like me who have a swayback. I asked her - could it be helpful for me to try to actively tuck the pelvis to get an alignment more like yours?

Her answer? NO!!! For all the reasons stated above. And she explained: "Even with a sway back you can flex your hip socket and the rest of your joints to get your weight over the front part of your foot " So - no reason for even me to tuck my pelvis in. And honestly - playing around with it on the slopes - it's not really possible for me to hold that position for more than a minute at a time. And while "tucking" I'm using muscles that are normally relaxed and ready for balancing and flexing and moving. My skiing gets rigid and everything seems more difficult, less efficient, more tiring.

What I get out of this is that you have a swayback, it affects your ability to ski well, and since pelvic tucking isn't an option, you're just screwed. Tell me I got this wrong, please.

 

[Ursula]

What I get out of this is that you have a swayback, it affects your ability to ski well, and since pelvic tucking isn't an option, you're just screwed. Tell me I got this wrong, please.

No, it does NOT mean she can't ski well.
What it means is that she has to find a stance that is comfortable for HER to be able to BE and STAY forward from turn to turn.
Out of my experience , watching folks who were told to tuck the pelvis under for years now, is that pretty much each one is in the back seat most of the time . Why? In the moment we tuck the pelvis under (or in, whatever folks want to call it) and the pelvic is now what I would call more vertical, and the rest of the torso stays vertical too. Unless you would want to ski around with a totally rounded upper part of your spine to TRY to keep some of your upper body weight forward, your total weight will be more on the heels.
From this position now the quads will be burning again AND the ability to rotate the femurs in the hip socket will be compromised.
I want everybody to try something out. Stand up, slightly flexed legs, pelvis tucked under, straight upper body. (If you have to - lean on a wall to make sure you keep it upright.) Now lift one leg of the floor and rotate it inward (if you lift your right foot of the floor, turn the leg to the left.) Most of the people will only be able to turn about 30 degrees.
Now lean forward in the hip-socket and put your shoulders over your toes. Lift up the same leg again and rotate. Most of you will be able to turn abou 60 degrees.
So what is the point? The point is: if you ski with your back pretty much vertical, your turning with the legs will be limited to about 30 degrees out of the fall line. Anything more required for speed control will have to come from somewhere else. Hip rotation and whole body rotation come to mind. Yes, we can still get the skis more across the fall line, but it will be more effort.
So again. In my opinion, anything that keeps you in the back seat is NOT what you want to practice.
Ursula

 

[nopoleskier]

Well, as Ursula says: it depends!

When skiing on groomers, it might be something like 80/20. But in powder and crud? It had better be 50/50 or you'll be in big trouble in a hurry! More equal weighting is also better when skiing bumps.

On the groomers though - whether it's 90/10 or 70/30 is influenced more by personal preference and turn size/shape (maybe 90/10 in larger high speed arcs and 60/40 in short radius turns)

The standard that is advocated by ski instructors these days (on groomed terrain) is unequal weighting, with more weight being directed to the outside ski of the turn. But there is no perfect weight ratio. And no "one perfect" turn.

We work on all kinds of crazy turns, late weight shift, early weight shift, lifting the inside ski, skiing on one leg, carving, pivot slips, etc etc etc The more versatile you are, the more you will be ready to handle whatever the mountain throws at you! So play with it. And have as many turns as you can in your back pocket.

Perfectly stated!

 

[bounceswoosh]

Okay, thanks!

I didn't mean that Laura couldn't ski well, although on re-reading, that's perhaps what I communicated. She did say it was something that caused her trouble within PSIA, so I assume it has some negative impact.

On a lighter note (sort of!), I happened across a Cracked article that referenced the Grecian Bend, a problematic lower back bend caused by the crazy fashions of the mid 19th century. Maybe this is the source of what Jenn calls the "T and A" position we women tend toward?

#3 on https://www.cracked.com/article_24475_5-wacko-trends-in-old-pictures-with-actual-explanations.html



https://books.google.com/books?id=gFWVWesJcTIC&lpg=PA273&pg=PA273#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Kimmyt]

Hm, perhaps we are miscommunicating. When I say that I 'tuck the pelvis' it is a super micro movement, more akin to an activation of the abdominals which helps bring the pelvis into a more neutral position, which results in the greatest ROM for me when doing the latest drill.

When my pelvis is neutral: I am able to create 'matching angles' because my hips are stacked over my ankles. I can create greater angles (skiing on steeper terrain) and still be balanced easily.

When my pelvis is anteriorly tilted: spine is extended (my boobs are sticking out), my weight actually shifts back of my heels as I get into a more 'aggressive' stance/increased angle because if I keep my hips over my ankles in this position I am overbalanced and it feels like I will fall on my face. As I increase my angles, my weight has to shift further and further back to compensate.

When my pelvis is posteriorly titled: spine is flexed (rounded shoulders), my weight also shifts back of my heels and my shoulders follow, I am unable to create increased angles/I am in a more upright stance.

I have full ROM in all of these positions, but thats because I am extremely flexible in the hips, but I would imagine that most people would have reduced femoral rom in the AT and PT positions.

So, despite these results, are you saying that I still shouldn't tuck my pelvis into a neutral position (or maybe I should say 'reposition my pelvis' because tuck seems like too strong of a word)? I'm not challenging any of this- you guys are the instructors, I'm just trying to get what you're saying to make sense in my body.

 

[Powgirl]

One thing I got out of this was simply the cue to commit. Often I think when we find ourselves in this position while skiing it's a fear response. I feel like I might do it when I'm going a little too fast for example.

I like the commit part, too...I get a little fearful sometimes...I really trust my new skis now...just have to trust myself more.

 

[bounceswoosh]

One more attempt to see if we're talking about the same thing regarding tuck: Jenn had me try to go for the same feeling by bracing for a punch to the gut. Your abdominals tense. Your pelvis tilts slightly, not a lot. It's subtle. It shouldn't be coming from glutes, but from the core.

 

[VickiK]

I need to start on exercises to correct swayback.

 

[santacruz skier]

I've looked at @Ursula 's video a few times. It totally explained what I needed to know. I was starting to get confused over tucking or not tucking the pelvis.....