Help Needed: Help Understanding Correct Stance/Posture

[Gloria]

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for yesterday but couldn't find it. I'm the skier that's "flexed though the spine" in the 1st picture. However, when I tried to teach myself the hip hinge I hyperextended the lower spine. One point that is missing is Gray Cook says don't hip hinge if you can't toe touch. The 1st thing my trainer taught me was toe touching. When I figured that out he taught me to hip hinge by kneeling on the floor, putting a band in the crease of my hips and letting it pull them back. The upper body folds forward as the hips move backward. Kneeling takes the legs out of the movement and enables the glutes to work.

So, the basic hip hinge in functional training IS a straight leg, soft knee, movement. In skiing the knees and ankles bend or flex also which is more of a bend and lift movement pattern in functional terms. I think it's still applicable across the board for practical purposes when trying to explain the diffference between spinal and hip flexion though. A great way to learn both the hip hinge for skiing and work on matching angles is to take a broomstick or similar and hold one end against one shoulder and the other end against the opposite buttock or hip and then do squats in front of the mirror so you can see your angles. The trick is to keep constant contact at both ends of the stick throughout the movement. So the reason Gray Cook says not to hip hinge ( straight leg ) is virtually the same reason we are saying not to tuck the pelvis while skiing. In a straight leg hip hinge the imbalance that is not allowing you to touch your toes, be it tight hamstrings or what not is going to cause counternutation to the pelvis ie: the same as tucking the pelvis during the hinge thereby reducing your natural curvature or flattening the lower back out of neutral postition and putting it in a compromised position. That being said, when you add ankle and knee flexion to the hinge, these imbalances are shortened as opposed to lengthened so the pelvis should be able to function normally whether or not you can touch your toes, so perfectly safe.

 

[Gloria]

I've heard this so many times but no one explained how to do it. After I read this I thought, yeah, right, please tell me how to do it. Then I did my hip hinge while looking in the mirror and, wow, I can now see the alignment of the upper body with the shins. As I move up and down the alignment stays the same.

Correct me if wrong but I'm thinking that bending at the waist is the reason why I have so much trouble on steeper slopes. When I bend at the waist my center is changed, I can't unweight my skis and I don't move then I freeze (I'm afraid of heights). Then I'm "stuck". When I hip hinge my center is aligned, my legs are free to move and I can move into the fall line. Keep in mind this is theoretical as I haven't been on the slopes yet this year.

Yes exactly, in most basic terms when you use spinal flexion in dynamic movement the central nervous systems responds by restricting movement in other parts of the body to protect the spinal cord. When you flex or bend at the hip joint and the spine is in neutral position, the body is free to move not only as intended but is also better able to predict and adapt to change. There is the nitty gritty of whats shortened and lengthened etc but tryng to remember and apply that to dynamic movement is way too much to think about, it's much easier to set up in a good position and let the central nervous system do it's job rather than overthink it and try to override it. It's a pretty amazing system really.

 

[Powgirl]

I do the same thing...on the steepest of blues, I think I am bending at the waist way too much...I lose my momentum and then struggle to enter the next turn on the steeper stuff...I going to try tucking more vs bending (tomorrow).

I would love to figure this out...it keeps me stuck as an intermediate...

 

[Powgirl]

Also want to mention...as a former ballet dancer, the tuck makes a ton of sense to me...

 

[VickiK]

Thanks, @Ursula , I'm with everyone else, looking forward to a video.

 

[Skisailor]

I've heard this so many times but no one explained how to do it. After I read this I thought, yeah, right, please tell me how to do it. Then I did my hip hinge while looking in the mirror and, wow, I can now see the alignment of the upper body with the shins. As I move up and down the alignment stays the same.

Correct me if wrong but I'm thinking that bending at the waist is the reason why I have so much trouble on steeper slopes. When I bend at the waist my center is changed, I can't unweight my skis and I don't move then I freeze (I'm afraid of heights). Then I'm "stuck". When I hip hinge my center is aligned, my legs are free to move and I can move into the fall line. Keep in mind this is theoretical as I haven't been on the slopes yet this year.

Bending your torso forward using only flexion in your spine would be a very inefficient and less effective way of matching your angles.

Tilting your torso forward at the hip joint is what we want. But the key is that it must be flexed proportionally with the knee and ankle joints. It's like an accordion. You want ankle knee and hip to flex together.

The problem you are describing could result if your ankle joint is relatively straight and knees are pretty straight and you ONLY bend forward (or get thrown forward) at the waist.

But if you start out with the torso already tilted forward and matched with your knee/ankle flexion (i.e.parallel with your shin angle) it is easier to absorb the shocks that a bump run can throw at you.

It's extremely common for skiers to ski with their torso too vertical (relative to their knee flexion). This would make you more susceptible to being pitched forward by terrain variations.

Hopefully this will all be clearer once Ursula and I put the video together. We are hoping to work on it tomorrow.

 

[volklgirl]

I was just going to point out that stance should really start at the feet as that's truly where skiing actually happens. by getting the lower legs into efficient movements, the rest of the body should respond by merely remaining in balance. I find that much imbalance and stance issues are a result of ankles too open, with knees and hips over flexed to compensate.

I start every run by pressing my toes into the snow and really flexing my ankles. As downhill movement starts, these angles relax some, but balance remains because the lower body is correctly stacked.

 

[Skisailor]

Ok folks. So I can report that we shot the video !

Some of it was with Ursula talking and some was just silent so she can do voiceover. She is hoping to put it all together in the next couple of days and post it.

As always, I learn something EVERY time I'm with her. Today was no exception. It was a great reminder for me of emphasis and context for the matching angles concept. It's important to remember that the matching angles are a means to an end.
As Ursula says in the video - no one is going to pull out their protractor to check you! So what's "the end" that they are a means to? Well I don't want to steal Ursula's thunder. It's coming soon!

 

[Powgirl]

Looking forward to it...thanks to you both for taking the time and effort with the video!

 

[Little Lightning]

So, the basic hip hinge in functional training IS a straight leg, soft knee, movement. In skiing the knees and ankles bend or flex also which is more of a bend and lift movement pattern in functional terms. I think it's still applicable across the board for practical purposes when trying to explain the diffference between spinal and hip flexion though. A great way to learn both the hip hinge for skiing and work on matching angles is to take a broomstick or similar and hold one end against one shoulder and the other end against the opposite buttock or hip and then do squats in front of the mirror so you can see your angles. The trick is to keep constant contact at both ends of the stick throughout the movement. So the reason Gray Cook says not to hip hinge ( straight leg ) is virtually the same reason we are saying not to tuck the pelvis while skiing. In a straight leg hip hinge the imbalance that is not allowing you to touch your toes, be it tight hamstrings or what not is going to cause counternutation to the pelvis ie: the same as tucking the pelvis during the hinge thereby reducing your natural curvature or flattening the lower back out of neutral postition and putting it in a compromised position. That being said, when you add ankle and knee flexion to the hinge, these imbalances are shortened as opposed to lengthened so the pelvis should be able to function normally whether or not you can touch your toes, so perfectly safe.

Gray's reason for clearing the toe touch 1st is to assure there is no restriction that distorts motor control in the hip hinge or deadlift. In the past I tried the hip hinge with the pole trick but I kept wanting to bend at the waist or go into a squat. I just couldn't get the smooth backwards weight shift. I couldn't feel it until I learned the toe touch. When I deadlifted yesterday my trainer put a kettle bell on 2 yoga blocks between my feet. I did a double leg, double arm with 1 kettle bell deadlift. It involved shifting my weight backward with slight knee bend.
Today I began working on patterning for the single leg deadlift. Ironically, my PT recommended this as a hamstring "stretch". I had a very difficult time with it. I blamed it on my weak ankle and hip. Today I was a little unsteady on my injured side but the movement was so much easier than when I would do it before learning to toe touch. I think Gray also says that this method of deadlifting maintains the toe touch.

 

[Gloria]

Gray's reason for clearing the toe touch 1st is to assure there is no restriction that distorts motor control in the hip hinge or deadlift.

So motorcontrol is becoming a huge relevant part of training, and other therapy methods and I expect in the next couple years it will be part of more and more discussions on here as it becomes more mainstream. I think it's great that you are working on this and happy for your improvement. Motor control is always preceded by motor learning and it takes a great deal of time for an existing motor skill to be replaced by a new one, hence why getting from intermediate to advanced skiing is a challenge and it's also very individual. That being said, I think the video is going to be a great thing along the vein of motor skills, not only is it going to apply to better skiing but practicing it will lead to improvements for many in other sports and activities too.

 

[Ursula]

Ok, Divas, Laura and I got something together for you all. Please remember that if you put 10 instructors together, you might have 11 different opinions in the mix.
The just under 15 minute video reflects mine.

I will be out of town for a couple of days and maybe wont have time to answer questions that I am sure will come up. (Just ask @Skisailor; she knows my answers. )

Now I will ask a favor: if you get something out of the video and maybe you learned something new, (and you didn't pay for it ), please consider a donation to GTLI.
https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/if-you-are-looking-for-a-good-cause.21189/
Ursula

 

[Jilly]

OMG. Thank you Ursula! And if you don't understand tennis or golf...how do you bounce a ball? Basketball ready position? Same thing. Stance and balance are so important and a major first skill.

 

[santacruz skier]

@Ursula what an awesome demo... we really owe you on this one. I'll gladly contribute!

 

[ski diva]

This is FABULOUS!!! (And I love the cats, too.) THANK YOU!

 

[SallyCat]

WOW! Thank you very much for taking the time to do that; it is tremendously helpful!

 

[Gloria]

Great job you guys!

 

[nopoleskier]

Fantastic demo!! Thank you for taking the time to make and share!!

 

[Jenny]

Can't wait to watch . . .

 

[Skisailor]

SO GLAD you guys are enjoying it! Can't believe she pulled it all together that quick from the various clips.