Beginner (kids) and carving - a different kind of view

[newboots]

What a great thread! I was lost for a bit during the terminology discussion, but then I found the trail again. Thanks for bumping! Keep discussing! I can't wait to get back on skis.

 

[Obrules15]

Ursula and I were hanging out today (lots of snow in Montana!) and saw these posts. @Skier31: She liked your diagnosis about the downhill ski not flattening at the start of a turn which causes the stem. She calls that a symptom though, and says that one of the most common causes of the downhill ski staying on edge, (and the stem entries) is the upper body position.

If a skier dips their new inside shoulder (left shoulder on a left turn) even only slightly, or twists the upper body in the direction of the new turn, it keeps that downhill ski edge from releasing. But the uphill ski has released and starts to turn first. Hence the stem.

We tend to do this as terrain gets steeper because we really really really want to get those skis around quickly when we are out of our comfort zone! So we look into the new turn which may cause our upper body to twist, or we tilt that new inside shoulder into the turn. And voila' the downhill ski won't release easily and we stem the turn. A lot of folks call that "catching an edge". Well - not really. It's just that they did not release that downhill edge.

The solution is to make sure you "go through neutral" at turn initiation. That is - shoulders must be level for a moment and you must first go downhill (even if just for an instant) before finishing the turn.

A little confused.

I find that *not* doing something is impossible so I tend to replace unwanted habits with good things. In the case of my turns I have a strong tendency to rotate into a turn (and feel nothing) and on steeper terrain my edges won't hold. If I replace the rotation with inside hand lead (small, modified Schlopy Drill) it prevents me from sliding out and losing control.

It seems as though the description of what Ursula is saying to do with the downhill edge conflicts with what seems to work well or are you actually referencing what will become the outside ski/stance ski/downhill ski?

 

[Skier31]

Ursula and I were hanging out today (lots of snow in Montana!) and saw these posts. @Skier31: She liked your diagnosis about the downhill ski not flattening at the start of a turn which causes the stem. She calls that a symptom though, and says that one of the most common causes of the downhill ski staying on edge, (and the stem entries) is the upper body position.

If a skier dips their new inside shoulder (left shoulder on a left turn) even only slightly, or twists the upper body in the direction of the new turn, it keeps that downhill ski edge from releasing. But the uphill ski has released and starts to turn first. Hence the stem.

We tend to do this as terrain gets steeper because we really really really want to get those skis around quickly when we are out of our comfort zone! So we look into the new turn which may cause our upper body to twist, or we tilt that new inside shoulder into the turn. And voila' the downhill ski won't release easily and we stem the turn. A lot of folks call that "catching an edge". Well - not really. It's just that they did not release that downhill edge.

The solution is to make sure you "go through neutral" at turn initiation. That is - shoulders must be level for a moment and you must first go downhill (even if just for an instant) before finishing the turn.

I understand where Ursula is coming from. The other way to look at it is that if the downhill ski is on its edge, then you must start the turn with something other than leg rotation, usually the upper body.

I agree with "going through neutral". Bob Barnes description of neutral has to do with the skis being flat so that it takes minimal effort to start the new turn by turning your legs under a stable upper body.

I think the key is that the "edge has not released". The question is what do you have to do to release the edge?

 

[nopoleskier]

during a PSIA clinic we worked on 'feeling" the quiet spot before leg rotation and initiating into the next turn... there is a 'flat' spot where there is no edging, the "neutral'" zone discussed above and shoulders are level. It was interesting to see some using upper body and how it does not work.. this is a Great Thread!!

 

[Skier31]

It feels very safe to hang onto the downhill edge, especially as the hill gets steeper. Once the edge is released and the ski is flat, gravity pulls the ski down the hill. This is good as it makes turning the legs easier. Turning the legs allows us to create the turn shape we choose.

 

[Skisailor]

A little confused.

I find that *not* doing something is impossible so I tend to replace unwanted habits with good things. In the case of my turns I have a strong tendency to rotate into a turn (and feel nothing) and on steeper terrain my edges won't hold. If I replace the rotation with inside hand lead (small, modified Schlopy Drill) it prevents me from sliding out and losing control.

It seems as though the description of what Ursula is saying to do with the downhill edge conflicts with what seems to work well or are you actually referencing what will become the outside ski/stance ski/downhill ski?

Let me take another stab at it to try and clear up your confusion . . . there is no conflict between what Ursula and the others are saying, and the kind of edging and angulation skills that are developed using things like the Schlopy Drill. Edging is definitely needed to keep your skis from sliding out, especially as we get on steeper slopes. What we are talking about is timing - the one, brief, special moment in our skiing - the moment when we end one turn and begin the next. What signals that moment? How do we know where one turn ends and the next begins? It is the moment when our skis are flat on the snow, about to transition to the new edges. That's what we do in turning: edges - flat - edges - flat - edges - flat. The moment within a turn when their skis go flat is something a lot of folks don't pay attention to and so are not aware that it is occurring.

So what Ursula is saying, is that there are a few upper body movements/positions that tend to defeat an easy "release" of the edges (making them go flat). In an earlier post, you indicated that sometimes you are "stemming" your turns. An unwanted stemmed turn entry (stemmed turns are not necessarily bad and can be a great tactic to use in some conditions) occurs when one ski goes flat while the other ski stays on edge. Typically, the uphill ski flattens while the downhill ski - the one we are standing on - is still on edge. It keeps going straight. The uphill ski has flattened and is starting to point downhill. And a small wedge develops.

So why does that downhill ski not release? Why is it still on edge even though our intention is to start a new turn? There are a number of possibilities. But a very common one, is that we have not leveled our shoulders at turn initiation. If that downhill shoulder is still tilted down the hill, or if we actively tilt into the direction of the new turn in an effort to get it going, it puts the pelvis UP hill which keeps the skis, especially that downhill ski on edge. And that turn is not going to get going unless we flatten the downhill ski.

Does that make sense?

I totally get that it is easier to concentrate on doing something rather than NOT doing something. So in this case, the thing to DO is to level your shoulders at the moment you are starting the new turn.

If we are properly "angulating" to get the right edge angle for a particular slope, our shoulders should be approximately parallel to the ground as we ski across a slope. That means the downhill shoulder will be lower than the uphill one. I think you can see this in my avatar if you need a visual. Then when we start the turn, we must "go through neutral" - shoulders get level while skis flatten and point downhill. As the turn develops we then lower the new downhill shoulder.

 

[marzNC]

If we are properly "angulating" to get the right edge angle for a particular slope, our shoulders should be approximately parallel to the ground as we ski across a slope. That means the downhill shoulder will be lower than the uphill one. I think you can see this in my avatar if you need a visual. Then when we start the turn, we must "go through neutral" - shoulders get level while skis flatten and point downhill. As the turn develops we then lower the new downhill shoulder.

Very useful image. Don't usually think of shoulders in relation to "angulation" much.