Beginner (kids) and carving - a different kind of view

[snow addict]

Carving IS the way to manage the speed. But it should come somewhere close to the end of the list of skills, when a skier has a solid enough technique already and don't hesitate to keep skis in the fall line when needed. There shouldn't be a need to brake (unless there is an emergency or an obstacle) - whether it's carving or not, the turn shape takes care of it. But yeah, having a good wide open run helps a lot.

 

[Skisailor]

Carving IS the way to manage the speed. But it should come somewhere close to the end of the list of skills, when a skier has a solid enough technique already and don't hesitate to keep skis in the fall line when needed. There shouldn't be a need to brake (unless there is an emergency or an obstacle) - whether it's carving or not, the turn shape takes care of it. But yeah, having a good wide open run helps a lot.

Well I would have to beg to disagree here. Carving is most certainly not a great choice for managing speed no matter how good your technique is.

I agree that turn shape is the way to manage speed when you are carving. But carving is certainly not the turn type you want to choose when speed control is your primary goal. And as pointed out above, you need lots of real estate to manage speed when carving.

Carving is of limited use in certain kinds of terrain. I, for one, would not head down a 10 yard wide rocky chute and decide I'd better use those edges because carving is the way to manage my speed!

I would be OFF my edges, using big time rotation/pivoting to ski that terrain.

 

[Jilly]

Yup! !

 

[snow addict]

Well, the way I was taught and always understood it, speed is managed via turning, carving is a way to turn. The rest is semantics. As for terrain and everything, I don't even want to go into that, because of course carving is not suitable everywhere and all the time, that's why there are more than one way to turn.

 

[Skisailor]

Well I think we probably do agree on most things. I was just responding to your clear statement "Carving IS the way to manage the speed." which seemed very direct and not semantical at all.

As you say, carving is not suitable for all terrain types and IMO is not a good turn choice if speed control is the primary goal.

And I'm pretty sure that was one of Ursula's major points in starting this thread. Hence her concern about so much focus on edge and pressure among so many recreational skiers and in many ski schools.

 

[SkiBam]

I agree with Skisailor and would say carving is one way to control speed, but sure as heck not the only one (or even the best one, depending on your skill level, terrain etc.). When you're truly carving (leaving two tracks in the snow, with no skidding), you might be to a certain extent controlling your speed, but you're not going to slow down much unless you're on practically flat terrain or hold onto the turn so long you're facing uphill. When I'm really carving (and to be honest, I only do this on wide-open, uncrowded greens or maybe an easy blue), I feel an acceleration through the turn.

Way before anybody worries too much about learning to carve, I would suggest working on things like pivoting, skidding and side-slipping, which will help you get safely (and as slowly as you like) down a variety of terrain.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Way before anybody worries too much about learning to carve, I would suggest working on things like pivoting, skidding and side-slipping, which will help you get safely (and as slowly as you like) down a variety of terrain.

#Bingo. #Winner.
Someone who remembers the skills progression and how it was taught before the advent of "easy" skiing on shaped skis. Weren't we lucky to learn all that other stuff FIRST?

 

[mustski]

#Bingo. #Winner.
Someone who remembers the skills progression and how it was taught before the advent of "easy" skiing on shaped skis. Weren't we lucky to learn all that other stuff FIRST?

Absolutely! I don't make the claim that I am an expert skier, but knowing that I can skid and side slip is what gives me the courage to ski "above" my level and stretch myself. Truthfully, I only play with carving on blue runs!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Pure carving on crowded runs that are not a fenced off race course = pure madness given the speeds that will be reached on anything but greens and modest blues. Just my opinion, but if I had to share the slopes with carving only skiers/riders I would stick to mountain biking year round. Way safer!

 

[Jilly]

Yewozz girl, you got that one right...Pure craving to me is what racers do....I would love to do it, but it's not going to happen...I try, but...Like SkiBam....open slope...ie Petit Bonheur first thing in the morning, no one there...scare the odd beginner out there...but....

I have never slowed down in a pure carved turn, unless I totally steered uphill therefore almost completing a circle. That is using gravity and/or hill to slow down. Which is not a bad thing, but..

 

[bounceswoosh]

I think of ski carving as just like ice skating - it's the same sensation. And the entire purpose of that stride in ice skating is to accelerate. Ice skates *only* have edges, no base. But I also think that for most people, there really isn't much risk of pure carving - often when we think we're carving, we're close, but not actually there and still introducing plenty of friction.

 

[snow addict]

Well I think we probably do agree on most things. I was just responding to your clear statement "Carving IS the way to manage the speed." which seemed very direct and not semantical at all.

As you say, carving is not suitable for all terrain types and IMO is not a good turn choice if speed control is the primary goal.

And I'm pretty sure that was one of Ursula's major points in starting this thread. Hence her concern about so much focus on edge and pressure among so many recreational skiers and in many ski schools.

Probably because a good portion of skiers never leave groomers, that's why they are being taught how to ski groomers. And carving for your average groomed run is the most efficient way to ski while turning and staying in control. Good technique does make a difference. But yeah, if a skier needs a pedestrian speed probably carving isn't the best choice - and it's damn difficult to carve when initial speed is too slow. Which doesn't mean that speed is not managed by carving. I hope you are not saying that people carving down the slope are oput of control and not managing their speed, because this is simply wrong. I am not sure how else to manage speed if not by turning. Braking? can be done, but as my instructor says "this is not how we ski".

There is a part of the turn when you decelerate (this is away from the fall line, uphill) and there is a part of the turn when you accelerate, but overall the speed is managed very efficiently. You are not going to fly away into space or into the bushes when you are carving your turns down your regular slope suitable for this type of skiing. To go faster you extend the accelerating part to slow down you extend the other part. You make the uphill turn sharper and gain speed back again, whether you are carving or not. There is no magic and nothing that cannot be learned and mastered. I suppose everyone knows how to stop using edges when they have to.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I hope you are not saying that people carving down the slope are oput of control and not managing their speed, because this is simply wrong. I am not sure how else to manage speed if not by turning. Braking? can be done, but as my instructor says "this is not how we ski".

There is a part of the turn when you decelerate (this is away from the fall line, uphill) and there is a part of the turn when you accelerate, but overall the speed is managed very efficiently. You are not going to fly away into space or into the bushes when you are carving your turns down your regular slope suitable for this type of skiing. To go faster you extend the accelerating part to slow down you extend the other part. You make the uphill turn sharper and gain speed back again, whether you are carving or not. There is no magic and nothing that cannot be learned and mastered. I suppose everyone knows how to stop using edges when they have to.

"I am not sure how else to manage speed if not by turning." - You're implying that the only type of turn is a carve. Not true.

Turning up the hill? This is not how we ski, any more than braking is. Turning up the hill is just another form of emergency brake. Advanced skiers can ski down a hill and control their speed without having to turn back up the mountain. Turning back up can be a real problem if you're not on a groomer.

 

[Skier31]

Speed can be managed by friction!

It's one of the many f words that are useful in skiing.

Flatter skis (another f word) create more friction and help you go the speed you choose.

We can use turn shape for speed control as well. Turning our skis out of the fall line and across the hill will slow us down.

 

[KatyPerrey]

So, why am I telling this story? Two reasons. First: Carving IS fun! However, if that is the only way you ski, stay on terrain you are comfortable with. Second: I would like to challenge all ski instructors to rethink their approach to teaching newbies, specifically children. Is carving REALLY what beginners need? Should they truly only rely on the ski design, combined with their weight and pressure on the skis, to control their destiny? Or should they learn to guide the ski in and out of a turn however THEY feel will fit the slope and their needs?

Just my opinion here!!!

So I've been reading and rereading this thread and I keep coming back to Ursulas original post. This 9 year old girl never learned the three skills used by the american teaching system (PSIA) until she had the private with Ursula. (Remember we are at Big Sky which is a PSIA member school.)

These skills are - rotary movements, edging movements and pressure control movements.
General description of skills-
Rotary movements in body performance are the turning of the whole body or parts of the body like the legs. Ski performance is the twisting of the skis.
Edging movements in body performance are tipping or leaning of the body to put the ski on edge and ski performance is the tipping of the skis.
Pressure control is fore and aft pressure and side to side or ski to ski pressure.

At Keystone and PSIA member schools, level 1-4 (green) are taught that rotary skills are the primary skill, Level 5-6 (blue) edging becomes the primary skill and Level 7-9 (black) is pressure control and really learning to blend all these skills.

Without these THREE skills you end up with the nine year old girl who can not control her speed in a corridor on a green run. From what Ursula said it sounds to me like she was taught to put her skis on edge and the "ski design" would turn her. Given a wide open green run or the beginner area she could easily ride the ski on edge until it went back up and that would slow her down or stop her. Not an ideal way to ski IMO! and she found this out when she got to the big hill (still a green run)!

Ursula (u da best) did the right thing and took her back to the basics and taught her rotary movements by way of doing the "twist". Brilliant!!! She then got the girl to "twist" her legs while skiing. ROTARY movements!!!! This gave the 9 year old a new way to slow down. She was able to "turn" her legs/"twist" her skis and go where she wanted while controlling her speed. (and a little skid is a good thing to slow down) I like to call it scarving! Skidding and carving combined.

For me, the moral of this story is CARVING is NOT what we should be teaching our beginner students. (No matter what the age.) We should be teaching all the skills starting with rotary movements. As a trainer at Keystone, I accept your challenge for instructors to rethink their teaching and will drill this into the new hires and returning instructors!

 

[BackCountryGirl]

I agree, Katy! The hardest lessons I taught were to 4 year old hockey players. They knew how to tip on edge. That works well on flat ice. Doesn't always do it on inclined surfaces! One of the hardest things to do is dial back edging and add rotary. So much easier if rotary comes first.

 

[Skisailor]

I think that's right! As MaineSkiLady, BackCountryGirl and Katy have pointed out - so much easier if rotary comes first!

I feel so fortunate. As a newbie instructor last year teaching beginner adults, I simply followed Ursula's game plan with great success and got excellent feedback from my students.

While still in our magic carpet beginner area, as soon as students were comfortable with a straight wedge to a stop, and making early wedge turns, I immediately introduced them to some of Ursula's drills to start the upper/lower body separation. So - very early on, they start learning to face their upper body down the fall line - letting their legs and skis turn beneath them - voila! rotation!

Then, when we got onto their first chair-serviced green runs, students were consistently amazed at how much that early "countering" movement gave them added control whenever they encountered a pitch that seemed a little daunting at first. Some who had taken lessons elsewhere and were very nervous about picking up speed found new confidence on pitches that were previously challenging for them. And they thought I was a genius. LOL!! Thanks Ursula!

What is interesting, is that I got the impression that most of my fellow instructors in the magic carpet area were surprised that I would introduce that upper/lower separation movement pattern so early on to beginners. Alot of instructors hold that separation concept back for higher levels. But I noticed that those students then often had more difficulty on the steeper pitches of our green runs.

Anyway . . . I had so much good student feedback from beginners - including "never-evers", I don't think I would ever change the approach I used last season - the one that Ursula trained me to use - concentrating on rotation skills very early on. Worked like a charm.

 

[Ursula]

Skisailor is at it again, she is pestering me to start writing again. ;o)

So, back from vacation, here we go.
I really liked KatyPerry’s response. Thank you Katy for accepting the challenge! Maybe together we can start getting through some thick sculls!
Now my next 2 cents to the topic.

“ROTARY movements!!!! This gave the 9 year old a new way to slow down.” Katy’s statement is spot on. And I will add one more statement to it: With Rotary movements, used correctly, you NEVER have to slow down, because you NEVER will be too fast to begin with!!!

Very often during my lesson, I will draw a half circle in the snow, using it as a track of a turn. Then I ask my students the following: If we cut this half circle in thirds, in which third does your speed control start?



So, where does your speed control start? What’s your guess what most people’s answer is? 1, 2 or 3? If you have guessed No. 3 you are correct. That is what most of my students I have for the first time, think. That is where their speed control starts. I tell them that this is where the disaster control starts.
Speed control for me starts at the first third. That is where YOU decide HOW MUCH speed you want to pick up.
If your first third or half of your turn takes you five to ten yards to get to the fall line, you have five to ten yards to pick up speed. (On an easy green run or nice groomed blue run – no problem! On a bump run with lots of moguls you will hit the next one with high speed. You better be quick in absorbing the shock, otherwise medium problem. In the Big Couloir in Big Sky – NOT good! BIG problem! Steep and narrow, not a good idea to use up five to ten yards to make the first half of your turn.)
That said, anytime you don’t want to pick up speed, you need to get that first half of your turn out of the way in a lot less distance than 5 to 10 yards. You might only want to use 2 yards for the whole 180° turn. That way you won’t have to slow down, because you never picked up too much speed.
The question that a lot of my students now have is: HOW do I get my skis that quickly from side to side? (Side note: the “quickly” refers to the skis traveling from side to side quickly, not the person descending quickly down the hill.)
What is the answer to that question: More edge, more pressure or more rotation? If you are with me on that, you will have answered more rotation. Correct. More rotation. Now how can you rotate your skis easier: on the edge or flat on the snow? Yep: FLAT on the snow.
Conclusion: If you want to be in charge of your speed on ANY slope from green to double black run, work on your rotational skills. Preferably with leg rotation (not hip or body rotation). Learn when to use your edges for carving, but fall in love with a flat ski on steeps and bumps, then you NEVER have to deal with picking up too much speed EVER again!

So much for today.
Ursula

 

[Jilly]

I think I see a difference in terminology between CSIA and PSIA. @SkiBam...do you see "rotation" as our steering?

 

[Skier31]

I teach leg steering to my never ever skiers from the beginning.

I teach the wedge in two parts:

1. Turn the thighs toward each other
2. Spread the legs wider.

The benefits to this method are:

Introduces rotary skills at the beginning.

Skis must be flat to turn.

Reduces the push the heels out into a wedge that we see very often.

If the student can turn their legs to firm the wedge, you can progress to edge release and they will be on their way to parallel turns.