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Beginner (kids) and carving - a different kind of view

Ursula

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
What’s wrong with that picture?

One of my last lessons last season was a 3-hour request lesson with a 9 year old girl. She started skiing when she was 6, had 2 season with ski school, (7 to 10 days a season), this was the year she was supposed to be able to ski with the family on green runs.

First day, the family stayed on our Mr. K. The girl did OK. Second day, the family wanted to change terrain and they ended up on green runs that had a little more pitch to it, and/or where a little on the narrow side. Long story short: the girl started to go straight in a wedge and would not turn anymore. Result: big wipeout! Next result: parents are screaming at daughter from behind: Turn, turn, you need to turn! Until the next wipeout. Repeat.

Friends of the parents are friends of mine, I got the phone call: would you teach a 9 year old that, after she had learned to turn for the last two years, now does not want to turn anymore? I said yes to the lesson.

Following day, we met just after lunch. She and I agreed to go to the slope she liked the most. Which was Mr. K. Off we went. On the first chairlift ride up I asked her about what she knows about skiing. She, very proudly told me that she knows how to make turns. You have to put a lot of pressure on the outside ski! That will make the turn. That is when I smelled the rat! (No offense to rats)

First run, she was allowed to make HER turns. Nice carvers! From one side of the slope to the other! Perfectly on edge! The only reason I could not stay in her rail road tracks was that my skis with 170 cm have a little longer carving radius than her 120 cm. But boy, she could rail those suckers!

Can you think ahead and imagine what happened when I gave her an imaginary corridor? She was only allowed to use half the width of the slope. What do you think: did she like it? If you guessed NO, you were right. She absolutely hated it. Half the width did not allow her to slow down at the very end of the turn, she had to go into the next, still carrying speed. And because she carved the PERFECT turn, she kept on picking up speed! She didn’t like to go fast!!! And her only means to keep it slow was a straight wedge down the fall line! (As a result, on steeper and longer pitches her legs just gave out on her! There was the wipeout.)

Now it all made sense to me. She and I had a little “skis off time”, sitting in the snow, talking, having a snack. She told me all about the last couple of days when she skied with her family. It was not that she DIDN’T want to turn! The turn she knew scared her to death! On the steeper and/or narrower slopes, her turn made her go to fast. It was time for a dance lesson. We danced the twist together, no skis on, flat boots on the snow. Turn the legs , not the upper body. She had a ball. Then we tried that with the skis on. I climbed up above her to show her, how I could turn my skis from side to side and slowly descent down the slopes in a very narrow corridor. Not a lot of edge, not a lot of speed. (She really liked the “slow” part!)

She gave it a go. I did warn her though that what she had learned first, might take over again, specifically if she would get scared. And yes, I was right, when she got scared, she started to carve again. But she recognized it and went back to her new “twist turn”.

So, why am I telling this story? Two reasons. First: Carving IS fun! However, if that is the only way you ski, stay on terrain you are comfortable with. Second: I would like to challenge all ski instructors to rethink their approach to teaching newbies, specifically children. Is carving REALLY what beginners need? Should they truly only rely on the ski design, combined with their weight and pressure on the skis, to control their destiny? Or should they learn to guide the ski in and out of a turn however THEY feel will fit the slope and their needs?

Ursula
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Nice work! Leg rotation is an important skill. Carving can be loads of fun but you want to get good in the bumps, ski the trees and control your speed on the steeps? We all need to use the ski to its full potential. Guiding a flat ski to rr tracks -everything is important.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Boy oh boy ... all I can say is that @Ursula, I wish you were my instructor 40 years ago!

I know @mustski. Right?! :smile::smile: I spent the first 40 years of my skiing life focused on perfecting my edging and weight shift (pressure). It wasn't until Ursula got hold of me and I learned to reliably get OFF my flippin' edges, and to turn with my legs, that a whole new world of skiing opened up to me. Bumps, steeps, trees . . . wow.

This little girl is the luckiest kid on the planet. :smile::smile:
 

BackCountryGirl

Angel Diva
So, true! It isn't great for kids to rely only upon "tipping and ripping." It think steering is really hard for little ones because they aren't as good as we are at separating the movement of their legs and lower body from their hips and upper body. I have to work with the kids I ski with in a weekend race program on how to guide a flat ski; they're so focused on carving everything and that doesn't work in every situation.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
A beginner should be focusing on steering and pivoting....not edging and/or as Ursula using the ski design. Thank god there are instructors out there like you Ursula!
 

KatyPerrey

PSIA 3 Children's Specialist 2 Keystone Resort
I always tell my students (no matter what age) the "two parts" with edging. and it's simple- ON EDGE and OFF EDGE. Most instructors talk about always being on edge. I don't know a person that can turn a ski on edge. I'm all about getting off the edge so you can use rotation. Once you've mastered getting off the edge the whole mountain opens up and you have many more tools/options available to go skiing.
 
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Skisailor

Angel Diva
So good to see the viewpoints of some of our instructors on this. It sure does seem like the rotation skill is the poor stepchild of skiing skills. Everyone wants to edge and carve and lay down railroad tracks. Is that an outgrowth of our current ski design? Is it because it looks cool and that's what racers do? Or what?

It's certainly what I see on the mountain - kids want to tip and rip. And their parents seem to want them to tip and rip . . . and unfortunately, alot of the instructors I see are focused - ok, I'll stick my neck out here and even say - "overly focused" - on that part of the skiing skill set as well.
 

SkiBam

Angel Diva
I taught a woman once who could only carve. This meant she just went faster and faster - quite terrifying! I spent the whole season with her working on pivoting (that might be what PSIA calls rotation) and learning to go slow. Side slipping was helpful too. (I don't know how she had picked up the only-carving thing - unusual in an adult.)
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Ha! Ok . . a little birdie swooped in with software that converted my screenshots to jpegs. YAY.

So let me re-do the above post . .

@KatyPerrey said:
I always tell my students (no matter what age) the "two parts" with edging. and it's simple- ON EDGE and OFF EDGE. Most instructors talk about always being on edge. I don't know a person that can turn a ski on edge. I'm all about getting off the edge so you can use rotation. Once you've mastered getting off the edge the whole mountain opens up and you have many more tools/options available to go skiing.

So true! That's why Ursula's post here was so great. That little girl is getting a great foundation that will broaden her ski experience - right from the git go.

To give us some fun visuals, I love these two stills from video I have of Ursula. This was part of an impromptu "lesson" where she was demonstrating rotation skills and having us play around with getting off our edges.

Here she is on an easy blue slope. Shoulders, waist AND HIPS facing downhill. Her right hand pole plant preceeding the right turn she is about to make will be right there in front of her – near the heel of her right boot. She won’t plant that pole in the direction of the tip of her ski, which would immediately rotate her shoulders and compromise her “countered” stance.


U-Bighorn.jpg

Now check this out . . . later on, Ursula employing that same wonderful counter and leg rotation on the uber steep/40 degree “Outer Limits”. Shoulders, waist and hips facing downhill. Check out where the pole plant is about to go . . .

U-OuterLimits.jpg

Great skiing.

:smile::smile:
 

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ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
This is great advice and something I wish I'd learned as a kid. I didn't learn to get off edge until much, much later. And truly, it makes a huge difference in all sorts of situations and is a fantastic tool. So thanks for bringing this up, Ursula!
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ursula, great story with a crucial and important point to it. I often get students that just want to learn to carve. After some discussion and explanation, they reluctantly realize that carving a double black diamond in Jackson would be catastrophic. So, we work on carving on some greens and then learn to soften the edge and shorten up the radius, a lot, to improve speed control and enjoyment of the slope. I wish more instructors would work on a variety of skills, not just high speed "perfect" turns. Versatility is often a forgotten art, but such an important one. I have witnessed first hand Austrian ski tour groups. They all have the exact same turn, and no matter what the terrain or the conditions, or even their skill level, that is the only turn they have, and as a result can not play with their line selection. It is our job to help our guests develop the skills and desire to want to explore the mountain environment, not just repeat the same turn over and over and over again. Thank you for your great story!
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Could never understand the fuss about carving. Not even that difficult. All you need is a groomed slope with a moderate incline and off you go. Carving skis help too.
 

Nic Nic

Certified Ski Diva
Wow, this post really hit a chord with me! I am also one who doesn't like speed and constantly felt as though I just couldn't turn efficiently enough on the more narrow blue runs that I would try (and dismally FAIL) at skiing. Now, I am wondering if I am not having the same issue as this little girl?! Going to take more lessons this year and work on my lower body position some more. Thanks for sharing this!
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Could never understand the fuss about carving. Not even that difficult. All you need is a groomed slope with a moderate incline and off you go. Carving skis help too.
That's nice for you. Some of us haven't had quite the same experience.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
That's nice for you. Some of us haven't had quite the same experience.

I agree. I don't think it's necessarily that simple. I know alot of skiers who have trouble getting the hang of just riding the pure arc of the ski without adding extra input that results in skidding, smearing, or whatever you want to call it. And even once you start to get it, there is alot to perfecting those carved turns depending on how crazy you want to get. :smile:

I do think carving the newer skis with their bigger sidecuts is easier than carving used to be before the advent of "shaped" skis. And to get back to Ursula's original story/post . . . maybe that change in ski design is one of the things that has led to such an overemphasis (IMHO) on turns using edge and pressure? Cause it's easier than it used to be?

The rotation/pivoting skills really do seem to garner less attention and yet are so important for actually opening up the mountain to the average recreational skier.
 

ruthies49

Angel Diva
I am so glad I read this because I can relate to the 9 year old;) When you start skiing (again after 15 year absence) in your 50's speed isn't what you are trying to achieve. I just want to remain in control and learning when to use carving and when to use body mechanics is still a learning process for me.

Thank you so much for the great article Ursula:clap:
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I agree. I don't think it's necessarily that simple. I know alot of skiers who have trouble getting the hang of just riding the pure arc of the ski without adding extra input that results in skidding, smearing, or whatever you want to call it. And even once you start to get it, there is alot to perfecting those carved turns depending on how crazy you want to get. :smile:

I do think carving the newer skis with their bigger sidecuts is easier than carving used to be before the advent of "shaped" skis. And to get back to Ursula's original story/post . . . maybe that change in ski design is one of the things that has led to such an overemphasis (IMHO) on turns using edge and pressure? Cause it's easier than it used to be?

The rotation/pivoting skills really do seem to garner less attention and yet are so important for actually opening up the mountain to the average recreational skier.

Of course. Carving is preferred for its efficiency. I understand that in the absence of a solid parallel skiing technique transition to carving can be difficult, because a skier is always even so slightly out of balance. The problem is that lot of skiers at intermediate level start "cheating" once they feel comfortable on skis and their legs do not work simultaneously as they should in parallel skiing, but with a lag. Stance can become "lazy". Turns are rushed, tails are twisted, the skis are not kept in the fall line for long enough - all this make transition to carving difficult, because carving requires some speed, and a skier should be able to efficiently control the speed, instead of braking down the fall line. Once technique deficiencies are addressed carving becomes easier. So there is not need to rush to carve until basics are sorted. These basics will be also handy in all-terrain, all-snow skiing. But getting them right can take time.
 
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mustski

Angel Diva
I also think carving is harder than credited above. One of the hard things is learning to carve AND manage your speed. That takes some finesse and the ability to read the run - turn size, fall line, etc. Don't get me wrong ... I am no expert at this, but I enjoy carving enough - and am forced onto enough groomers at my local mountain - to explore the variations. I think it's fun to start at the top and end up at the bottom without the need to brake- just using technique to control speed. Of course, it's a rare early morning run that allows that. Usually, safety requires a stop at the top of a drop for a quick "look-see" for other skiers.
 

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