Beginner (kids) and carving - a different kind of view

[bounceswoosh]

work on your rotational skills. Preferably with leg rotation (not hip or body rotation)

Bingo. I found out last spring that somehow I'd been doing it all wrong since forever - my torso stays still, but I'm turning with hips, not legs. Then I hurt myself (not skiing) and ended my ski season just when I had something huge to work on. So ... over the summer, it's become an obsession. In another two or three weeks, I can start actually working on it. I can already visualize how much this will help me in bumps, crud, and trees - because it's a lot faster and more direct to turn your legs than waiting for your whole hips to make the move.

 

[Ursula]

Clarification for Rotational moves versus Steering.
Yes, in PSIA we look at Rotational moves as any move that will get your skis pointed from one side to the other. With no value attached, we can rotate with the whole body, we could start every move by swinging the arms from side to side, we can torque our hip (or pelvic) from side to side, or we can turn our legs from side to side. Each one of these maneuvers will translate into the skis and make them point from one side to the other. You just have to give them time to react.
(I had to teach one of my students to turn with body rotation to one side. His hip socket was a hinge joint due to an injury he sustained while playing football. He could not turn the femur anymore He could only flex and extent, no rotation possible.)

So, each of the moves will make the skis turn. I hope we all can agree that "leg rotation" is what we are striving for. It will be the most efficient way to get the skis from one turn to the next.
If we use the leg rotation with flat skis, no edge engagement throughout the maneuver, we will have the perfect "side slip - pivot - side slip". The skis will be pointed in one direction, then to the other direction, with no travel across the hill. The path traveled will be straight down the fall line. Check out the link to the video I just uploaded.

I personally don't really look at this as a "steered turn". My skis turn from side to side, but I am only sliding straight downhill. If I want to get my skis to travel in a nice "turn shape" - I will have to add the use of my edges throughout the maneuver. Then I will be in charge of where my skis go - then I am steering my skis. (Only then I am not on the mercy of gravity anymore. ;o)

Ursula

 

[SkiBam]

I think I see a difference in terminology between CSIA and PSIA. @SkiBam...do you see "rotation" as our steering?

I think what PSIA calls "rotation" is what we call "pivoting" (though I could be wrong - maybe they're not the same). In CSIA speak, rotation is undesirable and refers to turning with the upper body rather than the feet.

"Pivoting" is one of the five CSIA skills. Is "rotation" a PSIA skill?

 

[Jilly]

Definitely the video is showing pivoting. I really need to get my brain in gear. 6 weeks and we could be on snow.

 

[Ursula]

I think what PSIA calls "rotation" is what we call "pivoting" (though I could be wrong - maybe they're not the same). In CSIA speak, rotation is undesirable and refers to turning with the upper body rather than the feet.

"Pivoting" is one of the five CSIA skills. Is "rotation" a PSIA skill?

Yes, Rotational Movements are one of the skills in the "Skills Concept" of PSIA.
The others are Edging Movements and Pressure Control Movements.
The forth, overall, are Balancing Movements.

 

[Skisailor]

I think what PSIA calls "rotation" is what we call "pivoting" (though I could be wrong - maybe they're not the same). In CSIA speak, rotation is undesirable and refers to turning with the upper body rather than the feet.

"Pivoting" is one of the five CSIA skills. Is "rotation" a PSIA skill?

Yes! Finally getting some of the terms straightened out a bit. Seems like PSIA's "rotation" is CSIA's "pivoting". Our "rotation" term is broader though - it can refer to the most desirable "leg rotation" but also to rotation of the other parts of the body - hip or upper body. Seems like CSIA uses the word "rotation" only for the less desirable upper body and hip rotation and uses "pivoting" to refer to leg rotation.

My question for the CSIA system is - what do you mean by "steering"? PSIA's "steering" is the combination of edging and rotation in whatever relative amounts you want to allow you to guide the ski where you want it to go. But "steering" does not EQUAL rotation or pivoting - because it does also introduce the edging skill, and those others are on a flat ski.

 

[Jilly]

Steering is achieved by pivoting the skis in the direction of travel. So actually steering the skis is the first thing we teach beginners. They usually stay square to skis, so we emphasize pivoting to achieve separation of the upper and lower body once they get their skis parallel.

Edging and pressure control come after the skis are pointed in their new direction. An expert skier will do the motions so fast that the steering, pivoting and edging blend together, as an expert skier wants edging further up in the turn.

 

[SkiBam]

Yes, Rotational Movements are one of the skills in the "Skills Concept" of PSIA.
The others are Edging Movements and Pressure Control Movements.
The forth, overall, are Balancing Movements.

For comparison purposes, the five CSIA skills are Stance and Balance, Pivoting, Edging, Pressure Control, and Timing and Coordination. So, the same, except for some reason CSIA includes Timing and Coordination.

I think all this talk of different terms for the same thing underlines the importance of instructors NOT using any of these terms (unless they're talking to other instructors maybe) when teaching.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I think all this talk of different terms for the same thing underlines the importance of instructors NOT using any of these terms (unless they're talking to other instructors maybe) when teaching.

Wait, no! I'm a student and I want that info! I think it underlines the importance of DEFINING the terms that you use.

 

[Jilly]

That's the thing bounceswoosh, not everyone needs it or should all students get it. But there are a few, like yourself, that need it too. It's up to the instructor as to how to parley the information. As a rule I don't to my students unless they ask, then its on the chair or after lesson.

We had a thread already about an instructor giving a student instructions in "instructor language".

 

[bounceswoosh]

That's the thing bounceswoosh, not everyone needs it or should all students get it. But there are a few, like yourself, that need it too. It's up to the instructor as to how to parley the information. As a rule I don't to my students unless they ask, then its on the chair or after lesson.

Would you be more likely to do it with level 8/9 students? (or whatever the "top" level of student is in your school), or for "frequent flyer" students at that top level?

 

[Jilly]

I my experience, I can't say that I have. I like to keep it simple with my students. Plus I don't like to talk too much. It's too cold at -20C to stand there and yak. Keep them skiing.

 

[Skisailor]

Hi @climbingbetty! Long time no see. (Since Diva East Whiteface)

I'm so excited for you about your move into the instructing world! Sounds like you are working your way in there and will do a wonderful job. Don't take no for an answer. Learn all you can during the ITC process.

I'm bumping this thread for you - another one you will find very interesting. ESPECIALLY re: the "rotation" issue.

 

[marzNC]

What’s wrong with that picture?

One of my last lessons last season was a 3-hour request lesson with a 9 year old girl. She started skiing when she was 6, had 2 season with ski school, (7 to 10 days a season), this was the year she was supposed to be able to ski with the family on green runs.

First day, the family stayed on our Mr. K. The girl did OK. Second day, the family wanted to change terrain and they ended up on green runs that had a little more pitch to it, and/or where a little on the narrow side. Long story short: the girl started to go straight in a wedge and would not turn anymore. Result: big wipeout! Next result: parents are screaming at daughter from behind: Turn, turn, you need to turn! Until the next wipeout. Repeat.

Friends of the parents are friends of mine, I got the phone call: would you teach a 9 year old that, after she had learned to turn for the last two years, now does not want to turn anymore? I said yes to the lesson.

Following day, we met just after lunch. She and I agreed to go to the slope she liked the most. Which was Mr. K. Off we went. On the first chairlift ride up I asked her about what she knows about skiing. She, very proudly told me that she knows how to make turns. You have to put a lot of pressure on the outside ski! That will make the turn. That is when I smelled the rat! (No offense to rats)

First run, she was allowed to make HER turns. Nice carvers! From one side of the slope to the other! Perfectly on edge! The only reason I could not stay in her rail road tracks was that my skis with 170 cm have a little longer carving radius than her 120 cm. But boy, she could rail those suckers!

Can you think ahead and imagine what happened when I gave her an imaginary corridor? She was only allowed to use half the width of the slope. What do you think: did she like it? If you guessed NO, you were right. She absolutely hated it. Half the width did not allow her to slow down at the very end of the turn, she had to go into the next, still carrying speed. And because she carved the PERFECT turn, she kept on picking up speed! She didn’t like to go fast!!! And her only means to keep it slow was a straight wedge down the fall line! (As a result, on steeper and longer pitches her legs just gave out on her! There was the wipeout.)

Now it all made sense to me. She and I had a little “skis off time”, sitting in the snow, talking, having a snack. She told me all about the last couple of days when she skied with her family. It was not that she DIDN’T want to turn! The turn she knew scared her to death! On the steeper and/or narrower slopes, her turn made her go to fast. It was time for a dance lesson. We danced the twist together, no skis on, flat boots on the snow. Turn the legs , not the upper body. She had a ball. Then we tried that with the skis on. I climbed up above her to show her, how I could turn my skis from side to side and slowly descent down the slopes in a very narrow corridor. Not a lot of edge, not a lot of speed. (She really liked the “slow” part!)

She gave it a go. I did warn her though that what she had learned first, might take over again, specifically if she would get scared. And yes, I was right, when she got scared, she started to carve again. But she recognized it and went back to her new “twist turn”.

So, why am I telling this story? Two reasons. First: Carving IS fun! However, if that is the only way you ski, stay on terrain you are comfortable with. Second: I would like to challenge all ski instructors to rethink their approach to teaching newbies, specifically children. Is carving REALLY what beginners need? Should they truly only rely on the ski design, combined with their weight and pressure on the skis, to control their destiny? Or should they learn to guide the ski in and out of a turn however THEY feel will fit the slope and their needs?

Ursula

Highly recommend that any parents of tweens/teens, or Divas still learning how to maintain a comfortable speed on blues or easy groomed blacks read all of Ursula's first post from 2014.

 

[Obrules15]

Highly recommend that any parents of tweens/teens, or Divas still learning how to maintain a comfortable speed on blues or easy groomed blacks read all of Ursula's first post from 2014.

This is so confounding. I spent 3 years in ski school as a child learning a wedge-stem Christie progression that's so ingrained I've spent 25 years trying to unlearn it and still stem when I don't want to. And don't get good control.

Rotation is really hard on my knees (as is my habitual stem), so I'm highly motivated to unlearn those movement patterns. What really slows me down has nothing to do with type of turn and everything to do with where I'm balanced over my skis. When I'm in a good narrow stance and forward I'm slow and in control, when I'm back or have too wide a stance I have very poor control and pick up speed.

I suspect (but really don't know beyond my experience) between the two extremes is the truth of what's best to teach and that varies based on age goals outcomes and personal characteristics.

 

[Skier31]

This is so confounding. I spent 3 years in ski school as a child learning a wedge-stem Christie progression that's so ingrained I've spent 25 years trying to unlearn it and still stem when I don't want to. And don't get good control.

Rotation is really hard on my knees (as is my habitual stem), so I'm highly motivated to unlearn those movement patterns. What really slows me down has nothing to do with type of turn and everything to do with where I'm balanced over my skis. When I'm in a good narrow stance and forward I'm slow and in control, when I'm back or have too wide a stance I have very poor control and pick up speed.

I suspect (but really don't know beyond my experience) between the two extremes is the truth of what's best to teach and that varies based on age goals outcomes and personal characteristics.

Losing the stem is hard! Lots of things you can practice. Start with sideslips - both directions. Work on sideslips until you can stay in a narrow corridor (about a cat track wide). The flattening of the downhill ski is the first move of a turn. A common reason for stemming is that the downhill ski (left ski starting a left turn and right ski starting a right turn) remains on its edge so it won't slide. Once that ski goes flat, you can easily turn both skis. It works!

 

[marzNC]

This is so confounding. I spent 3 years in ski school as a child learning a wedge-stem Christie progression that's so ingrained I've spent 25 years trying to unlearn it and still stem when I don't want to. And don't get good control.

Rotation is really hard on my knees (as is my habitual stem), so I'm highly motivated to unlearn those movement patterns. What really slows me down has nothing to do with type of turn and everything to do with where I'm balanced over my skis. When I'm in a good narrow stance and forward I'm slow and in control, when I'm back or have too wide a stance I have very poor control and pick up speed.

I suspect (but really don't know beyond my experience) between the two extremes is the truth of what's best to teach and that varies based on age goals outcomes and personal characteristics.

I know what you mean. Still tend to revert to a slight stem on bumps. I never got past the stem-christie stage in my two years skiing in middle school. But the transition away from straight skis was easy because I never developed the narrow stance needed for good parallel turns.

A few stories from lessons with PSIA Level 3 instructors in recent years . . .

Observing my ski buddy, Bill, make the adjustment needed with the help of PSIA Level 3 instructors has been very useful. The first time he really was paying attention was during a semi-private lesson at Alta. At that point, he couldn't do a drill called "cowboy" that's a super-wide stance. He literally couldn't make a turn in a wide stance. But after a few more lessons, by the next season he had made the adjustment. He has a bad knee, so making skiing easier was a reason to keep taking lessons with very experienced instructors.

A couple years before that Alta lesson, @snoWYmonkey had me and Bill, and another ski buddy, doing pivot slips at the start of our lesson. Bill could do pivot slips easily but was all over the trail. So for the second time she asked him to keep his boots over a line she drew down the fall line with her pole. He had to concentrate to make that happen. I do pivot slips often these days, especially when warming up.

One of my late-season lessons at Alta ended up on groomers because off-piste never softened. What my friend (low advanced) and I ended up doing for a couple runs was trying to follow our instructor (Arthur) at a relatively slow pace on a steep groomer (bottom of Collins Face) making medium wide turns. Our instructor's speed never changed as the pitch increased. We could only match him for 2-3 turns before we had to brake to slow down. It took another two seasons before I got to the point of being able to hold that pace for 10+ turns. Still get tired of concentrating that hard before the end and just let my speed increase towards the end before the run out.

 

[Skier31]

Losing the stem is hard! Lots of things you can practice. Start with sideslips - both directions. Work on sideslips until you can stay in a narrow corridor (about a cat track wide). The flattening of the downhill ski is the first move of a turn. A common reason for stemming is that the downhill ski (left ski starting a left turn and right ski starting a right turn) remains on its edge so it won't slide. Once that ski goes flat, you can easily turn both skis. It works!

Oops - I forgot to add: think of turning the thighs instead of the feet/knees. Pretend you have a tattoo on the inside of each thigh and that you want to show the tattoo to the people at the bottom of the hill. That should help reduce stress on your knees.

 

[Skisailor]

Losing the stem is hard! Lots of things you can practice. Start with sideslips - both directions. Work on sideslips until you can stay in a narrow corridor (about a cat track wide). The flattening of the downhill ski is the first move of a turn. A common reason for stemming is that the downhill ski (left ski starting a left turn and right ski starting a right turn) remains on its edge so it won't slide. Once that ski goes flat, you can easily turn both skis. It works!

Ursula and I were hanging out today (lots of snow in Montana!) and saw these posts. @Skier31: She liked your diagnosis about the downhill ski not flattening at the start of a turn which causes the stem. She calls that a symptom though, and says that one of the most common causes of the downhill ski staying on edge, (and the stem entries) is the upper body position.

If a skier dips their new inside shoulder (left shoulder on a left turn) even only slightly, or twists the upper body in the direction of the new turn, it keeps that downhill ski edge from releasing. But the uphill ski has released and starts to turn first. Hence the stem.

We tend to do this as terrain gets steeper because we really really really want to get those skis around quickly when we are out of our comfort zone! So we look into the new turn which may cause our upper body to twist, or we tilt that new inside shoulder into the turn. And voila' the downhill ski won't release easily and we stem the turn. A lot of folks call that "catching an edge". Well - not really. It's just that they did not release that downhill edge.

The solution is to make sure you "go through neutral" at turn initiation. That is - shoulders must be level for a moment and you must first go downhill (even if just for an instant) before finishing the turn.

 

[newboots]

What a great thread! I was lost for a bit during the terminology discussion, but then I found the trail again. Thanks for bumping! Keep discussing! I can't wait to get back on skis.