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Determining lesson levels

hmm kind of confusing.... So if you're level 4 or 5 and teach level 4 or 5? Well it doesn't really matter. It's very different in Tahoe. I don't mean to sound like I'm challenging you so forget the question...

No worries i dont feel challenged. This is all new to me, still learning. All i know is my mountain is in the smaller side of the mid sized mountain list and our ski school is VERY BUSY. I was in the bull pen only in the very beginning, thry started using me more each day i was out. I have very little down time.

I have no idea what it's like out there.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I could be wrong but i think everyone starts out with kids. The more experienced instructors get the adults.

You're selling children's instructors short here. PSIA has a children's specialist cert. At Breck (my understanding), adult and children's ski schools have separate pools of instructors for adult vs. children. It was a big deal (to us students) one year when one of our instructors decided to switch back to the children's school, so we weren't able to ski with him anymore.
 
You're selling children's instructors short here. PSIA has a children's specialist cert. At Breck (my understanding), adult and children's ski schools have separate pools of instructors for adult vs. children. It was a big deal (to us students) one year when one of our instructors decided to switch back to the children's school, so we weren't able to ski with him anymore.

We had classroom and on snow training before we were even hired and not everyone got hired. My time is mixed. I'm on the beginner hill half the time but if I've spent a good bit of time on the rest of the mountain depending on the kid or groups of kids that I have. My mountain although small made it onto the mid mountain list on mountainvertical.com. When I'm with the little's it's all about skiing slow and half the time in a wedge. However, when I get to ski the rest of the mountain with a private and/or a group of slightly older kids the wedge goes away and we play follow the leader and ski parallel.

That's cool that Breck separates them in case someone really just wants to teach adults. I don't mean to sell children's instructors short. I love teaching the kids more than I ever thought I would. I like the PSIA children's specialist cert idea.
 
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nopoleskier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You're selling children's instructors short here. PSIA has a children's specialist cert. At Breck (my understanding), adult and children's ski schools have separate pools of instructors for adult vs. children. It was a big deal (to us students) one year when one of our instructors decided to switch back to the children's school, so we weren't able to ski with him anymore.

yes indeed..PSIA children's Cert takes quite a bit of talent and time to accomplish. many small bumps mine included allow 'anyone' to teach if they have the time, energy and can demonstrate the wedge. they stay on the beginner slope w/the newbies and teach them to ride the lift. Can they talk about movement analysis? no, can they teach higher level performance? no,
are they useful and providing a service YES.

As to just teaching adults. I am on the roster and I do request adults and skiers looking to improve their parallel skills and speed.. so YES you can request to just teach adults but usually in a ski school it's all hands on deck when it gets busy so some days my back will ache helping the littlest get back up..
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
There's one of the differences with CSIA. Our level 1 cert is beginner and mostly children teaching. The course is designed that way. And as nopoleskier states, the lower levels do not have the technical knowledge to teach at higher levels. Our level 3 is where a big separation begins. You have to look at physics, movement patterns, spatial recognition and body dynamics. Level 1 is about moving in motion, balance and safety.

I prefer adults too, as I do not have experience with children, none of my own. And I really like teaching women.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
hmm kind of confusing.... So if you're level 4 or 5 and teach level 4 or 5? Well it doesn't really matter. It's very different in Tahoe. I don't mean to sound like I'm challenging you so forget the question...
L4 in the Vail/Keystone description is green only, L5 is greens and groomed blues. But keep in mind that a green at Keystone may be more like a blue at small ski areas in flatland regions. My daughter was L5 (of 9) at Alta ski school at age 7 during her first ski trip out west when she was skiing blacks all over the southeast. She was skiing Alta blue groomers without any problem. Her instructors at Mnut as a beginner/adv. beginner were often young adults who were intermediate skiers who had never skied anywhere but VA. Some has passed PSIA Level 1 or were planning to take the exam at the end of the season. At Alta, she had PSIA Level 3 instructors with 15+ years of experience (usually in April). In short, there certainly are regional differences as well as differences between small local ski areas and destination resorts.

I think it's worthwhile for adults who are intermediates or advanced to learn the basics about PSIA training and certification. Especially if they are considering taking private or semi-private lessons. There is a big gap between the requirements for PSIA Level 1 and Level 2, then another big gap for Level 3. My understanding is that passing Level 1 after a year of teaching at a small ski area is not that difficult for someone who teaches most weekends and takes advantage of in-house instructor clinics. By the time someone passes Level 3, it's rare that they haven't been teaching for less than 10 years. For part-time instructors, it can easily take 5+ years to go from Level 2 to Level 3. I know a few instructors who didn't pass Level 3 on the first try, usually it's the skiing exam that's the issue but sometimes it's the teaching exam that trips people up.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
yes indeed..PSIA children's Cert takes quite a bit of talent and time to accomplish. many small bumps mine included allow 'anyone' to teach if they have the time, energy and can demonstrate the wedge. they stay on the beginner slope w/the newbies and teach them to ride the lift. Can they talk about movement analysis? no, can they teach higher level performance? no,
are they useful and providing a service YES.

As to just teaching adults. I am on the roster and I do request adults and skiers looking to improve their parallel skills and speed.. so YES you can request to just teach adults but usually in a ski school it's all hands on deck when it gets busy so some days my back will ache helping the littlest get back up..
I observed a PSIA clinic for the Children's Cert at Massanutten a bit a few years ago. The trainer often asked the instructors he was training act to like kids. It was a mixed group. Trainer was on a snowboard and the students were on skis or snowboards. He made it a lot of fun. Key point was that lessons for kids should emphasize the fun.

My Mnut coach much prefers teaching people who are at least 14. But when he helps out during a holiday period, if he has to take out a group that includes tweens then he adjusts his teaching style accordingly. I imagine he's happy when someone shows up for the Silver Clinic (over 50) on Sunday because then he doesn't have to be part of the line up for regular group lessons until 4:00.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I prefer adults too, as I do not have experience with children, none of my own. And I really like teaching women.

This is a big reason I would like to teach, although of course, like all prima donnas, ultimately I would like to teach at least level 7s. (Yes I realize that is not within my ability range yet.) There are very few female instructors at Breck who teach level 8 and 9. And women in lessons tend to be pretty timid. I want to be an example of what they can strive for. I realize this sounds pretty egotistical and condescending, but there are a *lot* of women out there who think there is some sort of natural limit - "Oh, I couldn't ever ski THAT! That's something my husband (or son) would ski!" I love my male instructors, but there's something special about having a female instructor who shows you that you can do more than you ever thought you could. At some point I'd like to help nudge women into striving for more. It's hard to picture shooting for it seriously until I'm retired, though, because I would have to pay a lot of dues teaching never-evers on bunny slopes as well, and I just am too selfish to want to do that when I'm a weekend skier.

I know a few instructors who didn't pass Level 3 on the first try, usually it's the skiing exam that's the issue but sometimes it's the teaching exam that trips people up.

I think that's more common than not. On an Epic thread a while ago, someone described PSIA level 3 exams as a bit like the Ballad of the Green Beret: One hundred men will test today / But only three win the Green Beret

I was taking a private with Jenn (examiner) and we ran into a friend of hers who was about to test for level 3 and was hesitant about going to ski manky, crappy Goodbye Girl (or maybe the one next to it). South facing bump run on a spring morning, known for being crappy. Jenn said, "If you have any hesitation about skiing that, you're not ready for level 3." (I may be mixing facts in my head - we may have run into someone testing for level 3, and then Jenn relayed the story about someone else.)
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This is a big reason I would like to teach, although of course, like all prima donnas, ultimately I would like to teach at least level 7s. (Yes I realize that is not within my ability range yet.) There are very few female instructors at Breck who teach level 8 and 9. And women in lessons tend to be pretty timid. I want to be an example of what they can strive for. I realize this sounds pretty egotistical and condescending, but there are a *lot* of women out there who think there is some sort of natural limit - "Oh, I couldn't ever ski THAT! That's something my husband (or son) would ski!" I love my male instructors, but there's something special about having a female instructor who shows you that you can do more than you ever thought you could. At some point I'd like to help nudge women into striving for more. It's hard to picture shooting for it seriously until I'm retired, though, because I would have to pay a lot of dues teaching never-evers on bunny slopes as well, and I just am too selfish to want to do that when I'm a weekend skier.

I'm also hoping that by the time I'm retired, a much smaller percentage of female skiers will limit themselves this way.
 
@bounceswoosh I think you would be an awesome teacher.

I have to say I love the terrain based learning that my mountain has. I feel not only is it effective in helping students learn the basics but it's fun as well. I feel it adds a whole new level of fun when you are just learning or trying to get some fundamentals down. Everyone seems to love it.

Here are some other ski places that do it

SNOW Operating is the provider of the trademarked Terrain Based Learning programs. Some areas have variations of the concept. SNOW Operating locations participating in the Learn to Ski and Snowboard (Month)/Bring a Friend initiative are: Camelback, PA; Mountain Creek, NJ; Jay Peak, VT; Snowshoe, WV; Sierra at Tahoe, CA; Jiminy Peak, MA; Bromley, VT; Cranmore, NH; Cataloochee, NC; Seven Springs, PA; Hidden Valley, PA; Aspen, CO; Snowbasin, UT; Brian Head, UT; Killington, VT

I've never taken an all women class and that would be awesome. My home resort does women wednesdays as do a couple others I know. I think this would be such fun.

DH retires in 12'ish years so I plan to teach part time wherever we end up so by then I'll have 13 years of teaching under my belt and hopefully a certification or two. :wink:
 
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Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
I'm planning on taking the "Women's Edge" clinic this winter from the CSIA. They've noticed that there aren't too many level 3 and 4 instructors that are women. So the plan is on a little more training from the top women. It's at Tremblant this year, so no reason why not!
 

jenniferm

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The difference I notice having somehow made it to Level 8 (of 9) a few years ago is that I've been able to have fun skiing down unknown double-black trails at destination resorts without hesitation. And not even necessarily with the best skis for the snow conditions. Since I can travel to ski, that makes it more fun to explore a new mountain because there is less to worry about. Plus harder terrain tends to be less crowded and/or skied off. Main reason I continue investing time and money in high level lessons even after becoming solid Level 8 (of 9). My goal is to have more fun on the terrain I want to ski with friends who are as good or better. No interest in racing, little interest in narrow chutes. What I'm always hoping for is powder. That's why I followed my Alta instructor down the narrow, steep entrance of High Notch without any hesitation last spring even though it was a little icy. I knew there was good powder to be found after that.

At Aspen last season, I skied steep trees with deep snow, >15", with my Black Pearls. And going relatively fast for me because we were with an EpicSki Gathering group. I was following a young Level 3 instructor (used to teach at Liberty) who can ski anything, but he was stopping every so often since he was leading. Later that trip at Snowmass, my ski buddy JC and I ended up on a long, long bump trail at the end of the day. We had a good time. Had I ended up on that trail several years ago, it would've taken three times as long to finish. I would've gotten down, probably without falling, but the second half would've been a sequence of "make 4 turns and stop to recover." JC has also taken a few lessons in recent years. I can see how his skiing has improved even though he only gets to take a couple ski trips a year. When we started skiing together in 2010 in north Tahoe, he was clearly better than I was and liked both trees and bumps. He's essentially a Level 7 (of 9). If he skis more days after he retires, won't take much for him to reach Level 8.

Note that I was having fun skiing groomers long before I retired. Any skiing is fun for me. Being in better shape and taking lessons more regularly have simply broadened what I can do, which means more bang for the money I spend on ski trips out west.

...As a PSA, MarzNC, what would you call the level where you were "skiing the long bump trail...[and} taking three times as long...with "make 4 turns and stop to recover?" Because that's where I am now--I can do it but no points for style and points off for lack of speed-- and it would be useful to know what "level" this is.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
...As a PSA, MarzNC, what would you call the level where you were "skiing the long bump trail...[and} taking three times as long...with "make 4 turns and stop to recover?" Because that's where I am now--I can do it but no points for style and points off for lack of speed-- and it would be useful to know what "level" this is.
When I started doing an adults-only ski week out west, I was pretty adventurous when it came to ungroomed terrain. That was in 2010 in north Tahoe. Since I learned survival skills like side slipping and kick turns long ago (straight skis), was confident I could get down pretty much anything that wasn't too narrow. Could follow someone in open trees or on a bump run but not likely to put together more than 10 turns before needing a rest. As far as technique went, I was probably Level 6 more than Level 7. Even so, I was in the lower advanced group for the Diva clinic instead of the intermediate group, which stayed more on groomers. By the end of the next season, I would say I was definitely Level 7 (of 9). That meant I was more willing to go with friends who were better skiers on Ballroom or Sunspot at Alta. Took another season or two before I was willing to head around to the Backside or out to Catherine's in good visibility.

What I know now is that if I had worked on ski conditioning more after 2010 and started to take lessons at Massanutten, I would've reached Level 8 much sooner. Only started really working on fitness and technique after knee rehab in 2012.

Why do you ask? As others have said, knowing a number is mostly useful for getting into the right group for group lessons. However, it's more important to explain what type of terrain you like, or what type of terrain you want to get better at, as well as knowing what type of learner you are. Once I figured out how much of a visual learner I am, that helped a lot.
 

jenniferm

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
...Because I'm bored at work today and ski season seems so far away:smile: ...No, seriously, because I've been looking for a clinic for this year. ( Privates are another alternative--thanks, Divas--but if I'm travelling alone the cost gets prohibitive pretty fast).

Totally agree with you as to terrain, technique, and learning style. I don't love off piste, but I don't stay on blue groomers either. I'm comfortable on a black run, as I said with no points for style, and I'll make it down a double black but it won't be pretty. I've spent a lot of time on skiis but have had relatively few lessons, so the techniques/drills/exercises are usually new to me.

The learning style thing is huge. What do you call it when you can't learn by just hearing instructions? I need to hear what I'm supposed to do, understand why I'm doing it, watch someone else do it , try it myself, review why I'm doing it again, and keep trying. I don't do well with instructors who give me an exercise ( which I usually don't understand and so don't execute properly) and then ask "What did you feel?" I need to begin with the end in mind. I'm strong on analytical skills and weak on physical coordination and spatial orientation--so I must be compensating. But I don't know how that translates to "learning style."

FWIW, my other sport is horseback riding and I had exactly the same issues--can stay on anything, zero technique. What it took to was well-trained horses ( the analogy would be the right equipment) , private lessons weekly with a world class instructor, and a whole lot of work--I basically went back to square one and relearned to ride.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking private lessons and lots of them....with an instructor who suits my "learning style", once I figure out what it is!
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@bounceswoosh I think it's great you'd like to instruct and provide a good example of what can be done for women skiers; I think I'd say the only thing to keep in mind is you're much more daring than the average woman. I mean, I get it. I'm a lot like you in that respect. But even being an example isn't necessarily going to translate to these other women who have fear issues you don't.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
...Because I'm bored at work today and ski season seems so far away:smile: ...No, seriously, because I've been looking for a clinic for this year. ( Privates are another alternative--thanks, Divas--but if I'm travelling alone the cost gets prohibitive pretty fast).

Totally agree with you as to terrain, technique, and learning style. I don't love off piste, but I don't stay on blue groomers either. I'm comfortable on a black run, as I said with no points for style, and I'll make it down a double black but it won't be pretty. I've spent a lot of time on skiis but have had relatively few lessons, so the techniques/drills/exercises are usually new to me.

The learning style thing is huge. What do you call it when you can't learn by just hearing instructions? I need to hear what I'm supposed to do, understand why I'm doing it, watch someone else do it , try it myself, review why I'm doing it again, and keep trying. I don't do well with instructors who give me an exercise ( which I usually don't understand and so don't execute properly) and then ask "What did you feel?" I need to begin with the end in mind. I'm strong on analytical skills and weak on physical coordination and spatial orientation--so I must be compensating. But I don't know how that translates to "learning style."

FWIW, my other sport is horseback riding and I had exactly the same issues--can stay on anything, zero technique. What it took to was well-trained horses ( the analogy would be the right equipment) , private lessons weekly with a world class instructor, and a whole lot of work--I basically went back to square one and relearned to ride.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking private lessons and lots of them....with an instructor who suits my "learning style", once I figure out what it is!
You remind me of another Diva. It took her a while to figure out her learning style. Once she did, she found a couple Level 3 instructors who she really liked. For her, multi-week group lessons did not work at all even as an intermediate.

Have you ever been to Big Sky? One the bonuses for my trips to Big Sky was skiing a few days at Bridger. The price for private lessons at Bridger is a real bargain. I had a recommendation for a very experienced Level 3 instructor. Even a 90-min lesson was well worth while.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Found this description of learning styles in PSIA instruction material:
"Teachers use three kinds of sensory learning cues to communicate with their students: visual, auditory, and kinesthetic (VAK). Students tend to respond better to some kinds of cues than others, depending on their learning style. It is common to categorize people who prefer visual stimuli as watchers; people who prefer auditory stimuli as thinkers; people who prefer kinesthetic stimuli as feelers; and people who prefer the stimuli they generate by their own actions as doers. We all are able to respond to any learning cue, though we tend to lean toward one type or another. "

At Massanutten, one of the Level 3 instructors is kinesthetic. Very different from my coach, who tends to explain a lot more. But he can adjust to the learning style of the student as needed. As I figured out what worked for me, solo lessons with him became more fun. He talked less and I got to follow him more. I figured out that it was better to mimic, as in synchronized turns, as opposed to trying to follow his tracks.
 

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