Determining lesson levels

[santacruz skier]

Yup lots of great skiers out there.

That's why this level 1-9 business is a little off. Because there are a lot of great skiers out there. I have no idea what level I am and frankly don't care. I can hold my own and can hang with others. I read Keystone's rating and thought okay, I'm probably a level 8. And , what's a moderate bump run? Most in Tahoe are considered black or double black so there is no moderate bump run... Does that make me a level 9 because I ski bump runs that are not moderate? No way. I'm probably a level 7... Ha!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

That's why this level 1-9 business is a little off. Because there are a lot of great skiers out there. I have no idea what level I am and frankly don't care. I can hold my own and can hang with others. I read Keystone's rating and thought okay, I'm probably a level 8. And , what's a moderate bump run? Most in Tahoe are considered black or double black so there is no moderate bump run... Does that make me a level 9 because I ski bump runs that are not moderate? No way. I'm probably a level 7... Ha!

Perhaps the ranking system is for someone more like me who hasn't been skiing a super long time. I am a level 4 or 5 depending on my how i am feeling. I ski all groomer blues and a black or two depending on the mountain. You have been skiing a long time and i am sure you are an excellent skier.

 

[santacruz skier]

Perhaps the ranking system is for someone more like me who hasn't been skiing a super long time. I am a level 4 or 5 depending on my how i am feeling. I ski all groomer blues and a black or two depending on the mountain. You have been skiing a long time and i am sure you are an excellent skier.

I have good days and off days like everyone else .... Just because I haven't had a lesson in ages doesn't mean I don't need one!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

That's why you have room for 6 pairs of skis. And I don't.

That's, like, the best come-back ever!

(It's so hard to be monogamous with shoes...)

Did a double eject of them when they hit something under the snow.

Did I ever mention the time one of my skis dove through breakable crust and tossed me forward? I get up, and I see that the ski is in the snow completely vertical! And not an ache on my body; that's when I knew my DIN setting was correct.

Perhaps the ranking system is for someone more like me who hasn't been skiing a super long time.

I think of it as like school grade level. A way for the instructors to group the students together, like you'd assign certain textbooks for 7th graders; even if some are clearly better than others, they have mostly learned pretty much the same things, and could be taught mostly the same things. So, it makes sense, and doesn't make sense.

I think what @santacruz skier really objected to was when I started using it to recommend skis; she has a point, but I think I have a point, too. Point, point, point! We all have a point!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

That's, like, the best come-back ever!

(It's so hard to be monogamous with shoes...)


Did I ever mention the time one of my skis dove through breakable crust and tossed me forward? I get up, and I see that the ski is in the snow completely vertical! And not an ache on my body; that's when I knew my DIN setting was correct.


I think of it as like school grade level. A way for the instructors to group the students together, like you'd assign certain textbooks for 7th graders; even if some are clearly better than others, they have mostly learned pretty much the same things, and could be taught mostly the same things. So, it makes sense, and doesn't make sense.

I think what @santacruz skier really objected to was when I started using it to recommend skis; she has a point, but I think I have a point, too. Point, point, point! We all have a point!

I think you are right about the rankings. It does make lessons easier.

Ah yeah shoes, living in cali forever got me out of caring about shoes. Barefoot or bust baby haha.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I do want to point out that, in the poll, monogamists and serial monogamists combined (slightly) outnumber polygamists. We might be enabling one another for vicarious pleasure...

Me and one other person here are philanderers! And unlike in real life, nobody gets hurt! I have a serious roving eye when it comes to skis.

That's why this level 1-9 business is a little off. Because there are a lot of great skiers out there. I have no idea what level I am and frankly don't care. I can hold my own and can hang with others. I read Keystone's rating and thought okay, I'm probably a level 8. And , what's a moderate bump run? Most in Tahoe are considered black or double black so there is no moderate bump run... Does that make me a level 9 because I ski bump runs that are not moderate? No way. I'm probably a level 7... Ha!

It's definitely off. And people bring their own preconceptions. I think a lot of us (definitely me) went through a phase at some point when we thought we were much better than we were on an absolute scale. We either thought "Hey, I ski expert skis, so I'm an expert!" or "I ski black diamonds, so I'm an expert!" or "Well, nobody but extreme skiers ski that other stuff, so I'm an expert!" ... I called myself an expert when I was a solid intermediate. These days I'd have trouble calling myself a true expert, and likely never will.

The ratings are just a way to attempt to get people together who have similar interests and skill needs. And as long as that part fits together, it's all good.

Also, as you move up in skill, the levels necessarily represent a broader band of skill and terrain abilities. People spend more time at each level. A low level eight and a high level eight will typically ski at a very different pace on challenging terrain. The high end of level nine is unlimited - Angel Collinson and Bode Miller would have to be level nines, because there's nowhere else to put them (I mean, in theory. They get coaching - at least Bode does - but I doubt they're showing up in a lesson line).

I know an instructor who is pretty "secretly open" about rolling his eyes at how walk-ups assign themselves lesson levels. He is always nothing but respectful to the students in his class, but if you get a few drinks in him, he'll readily admit that his 8s were maybe 6s, etc.

Anyway, way off topic, but yes, there is no way for 9 levels to encompass the world of skiers, or for skiers to really do a good job of rating themselves. And there are disincentives for instructors to point out that a full group of "eights" are really "sixes." It's easier and nicer to just go along and at least not correct them when they say they're in an eights lesson. I remember how hurt I was when I joined what we called an eights lesson years ago, and then the instructor posted video and called it a seven in the video. In retrospect he was completely correct, and I even wondered about it during the lesson, but it still bruised my ego. It really only comes up when people have vastly different conceptions. This was an issue on a powder day last season - a friend who is an absolute beast on skis and a true nine by any measure showed up for a lesson. An instructor who has a "usual crew" that call themselves nines, do ski very well and some very tricky runs, but are on the whole quite a bit older and much slower, was there. The main reason anyone was there for a lesson that day was obvious - ski powder, lots of it. So the supervisor tried to put my friend with the nines group, which made sense on paper. A very senior instructor intervened and made it clear that my friend was *not* a good fit for that group, and told my friend that if he was forced into that group, he should go back to the ski school and request a refund as they weren't able to give him the instruction he needed. Long story short, friend ended up grouped in a "private" with an instructor who could actually keep up with him and was happy to get a group.

Now, you might argue that the point of a lesson group is entirely to learn, and that as long as the instructor can give you some pointers, you should be okay going slowly. But I think that if a ski school took that approach, particularly for very skilled skiers on a powder day, they would get a lot less non-holiday business.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Me and one other person here are philanderers! And unlike in real life, nobody gets hurt! I have a serious roving eye when it comes to skis.

It's definitely off. And people bring their own preconceptions. I think a lot of us (definitely me) went through a phase at some point when we thought we were much better than we were on an absolute scale. We either thought "Hey, I ski expert skis, so I'm an expert!" or "I ski black diamonds, so I'm an expert!" or "Well, nobody but extreme skiers ski that other stuff, so I'm an expert!" ... I called myself an expert when I was a solid intermediate. These days I'd have trouble calling myself a true expert, and likely never will.

The ratings are just a way to attempt to get people together who have similar interests and skill needs. And as long as that part fits together, it's all good.

Also, as you move up in skill, the levels necessarily represent a broader band of skill and terrain abilities. People spend more time at each level. A low level eight and a high level eight will typically ski at a very different pace on challenging terrain. The high end of level nine is unlimited - Angel Collinson and Bode Miller would have to be level nines, because there's nowhere else to put them (I mean, in theory. They get coaching - at least Bode does - but I doubt they're showing up in a lesson line).

I know an instructor who is pretty "secretly open" about rolling his eyes at how walk-ups assign themselves lesson levels. He is always nothing but respectful to the students in his class, but if you get a few drinks in him, he'll readily admit that his 8s were maybe 6s, etc.

Anyway, way off topic, but yes, there is no way for 9 levels to encompass the world of skiers, or for skiers to really do a good job of rating themselves. And there are disincentives for instructors to point out that a full group of "eights" are really "sixes." It's easier and nicer to just go along and at least not correct them when they say they're in an eights lesson. I remember how hurt I was when I joined what we called an eights lesson years ago, and then the instructor posted video and called it a seven in the video. In retrospect he was completely correct, and I even wondered about it during the lesson, but it still bruised my ego. It really only comes up when people have vastly different conceptions. This was an issue on a powder day last season - a friend who is an absolute beast on skis and a true nine by any measure showed up for a lesson. An instructor who has a "usual crew" that call themselves nines, do ski very well and some very tricky runs, but are on the whole quite a bit older and much slower, was there. The main reason anyone was there for a lesson that day was obvious - ski powder, lots of it. So the supervisor tried to put my friend with the nines group, which made sense on paper. A very senior instructor intervened and made it clear that my friend was *not* a good fit for that group, and told my friend that if he was forced into that group, he should go back to the ski school and request a refund as they weren't able to give him the instruction he needed. Long story short, friend ended up grouped in a "private" with an instructor who could actually keep up with him and was happy to get a group.

Now, you might argue that the point of a lesson group is entirely to learn, and that as long as the instructor can give you some pointers, you should be okay going slowly. But I think that if a ski school took that approach, particularly for very skilled skiers on a powder day, they would get a lot less non-holiday business.

I might be a philanderer as I've done some ski shuffling in the past 2 seasons. However, I will argue that the last 2 seasons were my college/wild years of skis being experimental and taking lessons and figuring out what I liked/didn't like and all of that. I made changes this past season based on those results. My intention going forward is to have a Polygamous relationship with my skis as I'll have my daily driver but other skis I like for other specific conditions, etc. I like your analogy of no one getting hurt . I don't even plan to really demo this coming season and just plan to take lessons, ski, have fun and learn. I do have a roving eye when it comes to skis but it might just come down to me being happy with my pack of skis but still appreciating the beauty of a passing ski but not acting on it

I've been in lessons as a student and been the instructor where all weren't at the same level. 3 years ago I in a class where I was really behind. Maybe it was a level 3 class, I don't remember, I was just very slow and there were these students in the class who were into speed which isn't a good thing when you are out of control. The instructor was very patient with everyone but what does an instructor do when you have a student who has the need for speed but doesn't have the skill to control themselves. Another time I was with 3 other people in a level 4 class. The girl and I were right up there behind the instructor turning without a wedge and doing well. The other 2 were way behind and the instructor had to hold us back to try and work with the other 2. Perhaps I should have put myself in a level 5 that day. Who knows. It's the risk of taking a group lesson when this happens. I just started instructing this past season and a couple times I had students that were varying levels. One time my coworker who had the class with me decided to split the class up because the split was so wide. That was a fun day. This 10 year old boy whom I think was tired after all day lessons so by 3pm he could barely ski. The only way to get him down the hill was to put him between my legs like he was a 4 year old and wedge down with him. That's when I realized how strong my legs are skiing most of the entire trail down from the top in a slow wedge on my Kenjas with a 10 year old between my legs. Another day I had a bunch of teenagers in the saturday afternoon program and this one gal seemed to be a decent skier but didn't have any confidence and was very slow. All the other kids in my group wanted to go faster. I stayed with the girl and the other kids met us at various designated places down the run so it worked out.

The self classification is only as good as the student's assessment of themselves.

I suffer from confidence issues so I am one that would never go hey I ski x ski so I'm a level 8. I would never put myself in a lesson beyond a level 4 or 5 which seems to be intermediate across the board.

Group lessons can be challenging and there's a good chance everyone won't be at that same level. I plan to take a private or two this coming season. This is why some people are fans of privates as you don't have that potential for unevenness in a group. Any group lesson I've had I always try to get something out of it even it's uneven with the skill. There's always something to be learned so I always try to be a sponge.

I do love skis though and have to peruse them whenever I go into a ski shop. However, basically like @DeweySki said when I'm demoing and on the hunt for things is when I know the most about things in ski land. This coming season I'm not looking for anything so other than what I've generally heard or read I'm definitely less informed about what's out there.

 

[bounceswoosh]

The instructor was very patient with everyone but what does an instructor do when you have a student who has the need for speed but doesn't have the skill to control themselves.

This is an interesting question. There must be go-tos among instructors? Anyone?

 

[tinymoose]

I generally despise the whole level system. Not only am I horrible at properly classifying myself, it seems many (not all), but many of the group lessons I've found myself in haven't been a good fit anyhow. It's kinda reached a point where I'm not sure I want to do group lessons unless I know the other people in the lesson and we all ski at a somewhat comparable level, or it's a lesson on a specific topic (racing, trees, bumps). Otherwise, I just feel like there are too many unknowns as far as skill level or what people want to focus on (like the women's clinic where nobody except me wanted to work on bumps).

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I generally despise the whole level system. Not only am I horrible at properly classifying myself, it seems many (not all), but many of the group lessons I've found myself in haven't been a good fit anyhow. It's kinda reached a point where I'm not sure I want to do group lessons unless I know the other people in the lesson and we all ski at a somewhat comparable level, or it's a lesson on a specific topic (racing, trees, bumps). Otherwise, I just feel like there are too many unknowns as far as skill level or what people want to focus on (like the women's clinic where nobody except me wanted to work on bumps).

I get where this would be frustrating and I've definitely experienced it myself. I tend to as of late take group lessons during the week so more often than not I've had a private for the price of a group since there weren't any other students.

 

[nopoleskier]

The self classification is only as good as the student's assessment of themselves.

and since they are students they are usually Clueless at to what the level system even means.....

 

[surfsnowgirl]

and since they are students they are usually Clueless at to what the level system even means.....

At my mountain we put a little summary under each level to "try" to help. One of these. I don't know if all places do this but hopefully it helps.

 

[nopoleskier]

This is an interesting question. There must be go-tos among instructors? Anyone?

It's pretty easy to give tasks to students that are 'better' than the others. Most instructors have 'bags' of tricks to give students a good lesson even if they are in the wrong group.

I get a lot of parents and kids privates and I give each a task but the ones needing most help do get the most attention. Fortunately I have good 'analysis' skills so I can look at skiers and see what they are doing that I can help make them ski easier and better.

 

[nopoleskier]

I in a class where I was really behind. Maybe it was a level 3 class, I don't remember, I was just very slow and there were these students in the class who were into speed which isn't a good thing when you are out of control.

Control is my main concern and what I teach. None of us need out of control skiers!! At my home Mt. we don't let those that haven't mastered control go up the big lift.. Do they do it w/friends yes and they end up walking down the Mt then we've lost another skier..

Skiing in control is our goal with every first time lesson.

My horror story is some foreign college students that did not speak English, had no translator.. they thought it was fun to ski until they hugged a tree or crashed and burned!! it was frightening! Some did learn but there were a few that were totally out of control but laughing and having a super good time. Fortunately the beginner hill wasn't crowded because I'm sure we could have had a real disaster!

 

[tinymoose]

It's pretty easy to give tasks to students that are 'better' than the others. Most instructors have 'bags' of tricks to give students a good lesson even if they are in the wrong group.

I get a lot of parents and kids privates and I give each a task but the ones needing most help do get the most attention. Fortunately I have good 'analysis' skills so I can look at skiers and see what they are doing that I can help make them ski easier and better.

I wish more instructors were like you. I've been in a group lesson where I got little feedback, was used as an example of what to do by the instructor, and then when I got bored and just started doing drills on my own he was like, "Good!" Um, thanks? And I wasn't even that good of a skier at the time, I was just placed in a class that was not a good match as far as skill levels, and he did nothing to accommodate for it.

(I'm whiny today lol)

 

[surfsnowgirl]

It's pretty easy to give tasks to students that are 'better' than the others. Most instructors have 'bags' of tricks to give students a good lesson even if they are in the wrong group.

I get a lot of parents and kids privates and I give each a task but the ones needing most help do get the most attention. Fortunately I have good 'analysis' skills so I can look at skiers and see what they are doing that I can help make them ski easier and better.

I had a 8 year old last season that asked me when he could go fast. I told him that control is the most important thing and that it's important to be able to control yourself, work on the various exercises and the speed will come. I told him even the best skiers out there know how to go slow. I said some people go way faster than they should be, can't control their speed and they are dangerous so it's important to be able to learn control right from the getgo. I know I know it sometimes isn't "exciting" to do the drills and go slow but it's fundamentally very important. He was a good kid and didn't push me so all was fine.

The student who was in class with me a couple seasons ago kept flying ahead and kept falling. She disappeared at one point and it turns out she was way ahead of us down the hill, had fallen and taken down a rope that separated the race course from the rest of the trail. Oy...... I was feeling bad because I was the slow one in the class but I'd rather be the slow one than flying out of control and crashing.

I don't remember if the instructor said anything to the student, maybe they did in private.

What do you do in this scenario. What task would you give them. I've haven't had a runaway student yet so I'm trying to learn how to handle this. Maybe I should start another thread on teaching tips and whatnot so as to not hijack @Fluffy Kitty 's thread.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Hey all,

When I get a chance I'm going to move the lesson levels thread out from the gear thread.

 

[bounceswoosh]

And maybe one on tips for instructors on handling speed demons =)

 

[santacruz skier]

And maybe one on tips for instructors on handling speed demons =)

Also in case I take a lesson in the future, what level do you need to be at in order to instruct? and at what level? Do I want PSIA certified xx?

 

[santacruz skier]

At my mountain we put a little summary under each level to "try" to help. One of these. I don't know if all places do this but hopefully it helps.

View attachment 5868

See what I mean? Level 5 is losing wedge? Many skiers who wedge their turns don't even know it. I know I do if I get in tight trees, etc...but do I think I do? No way..