Determining lesson levels

[marzNC]

One more reference . . . from 1982 in Skiing Magazine. Describes four types: Watcher, Doer, Feeler, Thinker. Notes that everyone is a composite but usually one type dominates. What's interesting is the suggestion that doing a few things from another type can help. Here are examples for a Thinker:

". . . hardest time to become accomplished and fluid skiers. Of all the learning styles described here, those who are heavily thinking-oriented will gain the most by increasing their learning-style versatility.
First, add some of the qualities of the Feeler:

• Cue in on the sensory experiences that result from turning, edging, and applying pressure to your skis. . . . chart those sensory experiences by measuring their intensity on a scale from 1 to 5.

Add the qualities of the Watcher by:

• Watching other people's performances in terms of general impressions, flow of movement, rhythm, or the color of the clothing they are wearing. See turns not as segmented movements leading to a change of direction but as an uninterrupted flow. Better yet, don't even pay attention to individual turns; rather, see the weaving and bobbing of a series of turns."

 

[KatyPerrey]

Unfortunately most instructors teach to their learning style, while the really good instructor teaches to all the learning styles throughout a lesson.

 

[bounceswoosh]

The learning style thing is huge. What do you call it when you can't learn by just hearing instructions? I need to hear what I'm supposed to do, understand why I'm doing it, watch someone else do it , try it myself, review why I'm doing it again, and keep trying. I don't do well with instructors who give me an exercise ( which I usually don't understand and so don't execute properly) and then ask "What did you feel?" I need to begin with the end in mind. I'm strong on analytical skills and weak on physical coordination and spatial orientation--so I must be compensating. But I don't know how that translates to "learning style."

As @marzNC posted - the term that came to mind was kinesthetic. Whatever it is, it sounds like me. I struggle with discovery-based learning where the instructor wants me to figure it out myself. And by struggle I mean, it usually just doesn't do anything for me. I agree that if you have trouble in a lot of instruction environments, PSIA level 3 instructors will be your best bet for instructors who can engage with all sorts of different learning styles. If you're ever skiing in Breck, I can give you a bunch of recommendations. If you're ever in Big Sky, Ursula is great. There are fantastic resource everywhere; personal recommendations are the best way to connect with an instructor who works for you.

@bounceswoosh I think it's great you'd like to instruct and provide a good example of what can be done for women skiers; I think I'd say the only thing to keep in mind is you're much more daring than the average woman. I mean, I get it. I'm a lot like you in that respect. But even being an example isn't necessarily going to translate to these other women who have fear issues you don't.

Oooh, daring. I do NOT think of myself that way. But sure, if you say so! I hear what you're saying. It's easy to say I'd like to teach when I haven't actually taken any concrete steps to do so. I owe so much to Jenn for opening my eyes. It's one thing to see a male instructor go off a little jump for sheer joy; it's a totally different thing to see a female instructor do the same. (Not just instructors, but you know.) I want to at least see if I can pay that debt forward.

 

[heather matthews]

A few years ago i did a clinic with a level 3 instructor/instructor trainer who totally got that I responded best to kinestheic stimuli.Telling me it should feel a certain way gave me something I could work towards. When I'm skiing well(for me) then I can feel the tension ebbing and flowing through my body and the connection with the snow.It sort of sounds corny but the skis and I are connected,they are an extension of my body. Conversely when I feel I'm skiing rubbish I can feel like I'm a passenger and that feeling does actually make me quite unhappy.The oddest thing is that the skiing itself can look very similar to even a pretty experienced observer.It's sort of like analogue vs digital skiing.
When I think about my level/ability I think that maybe there are times when I underestimate it but I'm also aware of where I'm weaker.I know other skiers(all male!) who don't have the degree of control that I have on a good day,certainly dont use their edges well,or round out their turns,employ counterangulation when needed etc etc. but would regard themselves as good skiers and would probably rate themselves higher.So I wouldn't even dare to give myself a level as it seems such a brash thing to do.Even writing about it is hard and feels challenging.I do envy those who have that certainty and self confidence to state where they are at but I honestly think that what would be right for me on Tuesday in soft hero snow would be soooo wrong by Saturday in the icy moguls.
But really I just wish the mountain wasnt closed by high winds today so I could be there skiing rather than thinking about that maybe I'm developing an advanced /expert skillset but still have the mindset of an intermediate...wow...was that a lightbulb moment!!!?

 

[nopoleskier]

One more reference . . . from 1982 in Skiing Magazine. Describes four types: Watcher, Doer, Feeler, Thinker. Notes that everyone is a composite but usually one type dominates. What's interesting is the suggestion that doing a few things from another type can help. Here are examples for a Thinker:

". . . hardest time to become accomplished and fluid skiers. Of all the learning styles described here, those who are heavily thinking-oriented will gain the most by increasing their learning-style versatility.
First, add some of the qualities of the Feeler:

• Cue in on the sensory experiences that result from turning, edging, and applying pressure to your skis. . . . chart those sensory experiences by measuring their intensity on a scale from 1 to 5.

Add the qualities of the Watcher by:

• Watching other people's performances in terms of general impressions, flow of movement, rhythm, or the color of the clothing they are wearing. See turns not as segmented movements leading to a change of direction but as an uninterrupted flow. Better yet, don't even pay attention to individual turns; rather, see the weaving and bobbing of a series of turns."

Wow! Good Find! This is how I was taught to teach skiing in the late 70's-80's ! The instructor definitely needs to be able to identify a students 'learning style'

 

[marzNC]

Quote nopoleskier: "Wow! Good Find! This is how I was taught to teach skiing in the late 70's-80's ! The instructor definitely needs to be able to identify a students 'learning style'"

No surprise, the author was Horst Abraham. I gather he helped create the American Teaching Method. He was inducted into the US Ski and Snowboard Hall of Fame in 2013.

"Abraham, who served as PSIA’s education director in the early 1970s, was among the association’s early innovators responsible for the American Teaching Method (ATM), which was a game-changer in ski instruction at the time and continues to be an integral part of modern instruction. The ATM focused on the guest and the skills specific to that guest."

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

One more reference . . . from 1982 in Skiing Magazine. Describes four types: Watcher, Doer, Feeler, Thinker. Notes that everyone is a composite but usually one type dominates. What's interesting is the suggestion that doing a few things from another type can help. Here are examples for a Thinker:

". . . hardest time to become accomplished and fluid skiers. Of all the learning styles described here, those who are heavily thinking-oriented will gain the most by increasing their learning-style versatility.

I think I'm a Thinker, ugh - not good for my skiing. The advice to add elements of watcher and feeler are really good in the article! I realized I am trying to be more of a feeler in lessons. I think I have started to realize it helps to focus how different elements feel in skiing, it's very subtle sometimes. Adding elements of watcher is good too, there is definitely a strong element of that in most lessons, cause the instructor would show you what they want to do then maybe explain it, so being able to learn by watching is important.

 

[Jilly]

This is the one area that the CSIA is really working on. Yes you can be a good skier, but can you teach. I'm not a great teacher. I know that. So I take any clinics on how to teach. In my professional life, I'm teaching courses for the institute. They thought it was great that they had a ski instructor as a volunteer. I was like really? We don't have to teach you how to teach. No I could use some help.

My one pet peeve is the instructor that explains/demo's something, watches the student to see if they get the result they want, and when they don't, they just yell louder. They didn't understand it the first time, so try explaining it again. If that doesn't work, time to change tactics. The instructor need to figure out was it the delivery, was it the message or the demo?

 

[jenniferm]

You remind me of another Diva. It took her a while to figure out her learning style. Once she did, she found a couple Level 3 instructors who she really liked. For her, multi-week group lessons did not work at all even as an intermediate.

Have you ever been to Big Sky? One the bonuses for my trips to Big Sky was skiing a few days at Bridger. The price for private lessons at Bridger is a real bargain. I had a recommendation for a very experienced Level 3 instructor. Even a 90-min lesson was well worth while.

Yes, that would be me...I did a weeklong clinic at aspen years ago, it was either a women's clinic or just women in the group...and that worked well. Otherwise not so much

OK, I'm beginning to see a plan here...privates with level 2/3 instructors recommended be other divas. Which is good because I can be area agnostic. Thanks for the advice.

 

[jenniferm]

One more reference . . . from 1982 in Skiing Magazine. Describes four types: Watcher, Doer, Feeler, Thinker. Notes that everyone is a composite but usually one type dominates. What's interesting is the suggestion that doing a few things from another type can help. Here are examples for a Thinker:

". . . hardest time to become accomplished and fluid skiers. Of all the learning styles described here, those who are heavily thinking-oriented will gain the most by increasing their learning-style versatility.
First, add some of the qualities of the Feeler:

• Cue in on the sensory experiences that result from turning, edging, and applying pressure to your skis. . . . chart those sensory experiences by measuring their intensity on a scale from 1 to 5.

Add the qualities of the Watcher by:

• Watching other people's performances in terms of general impressions, flow of movement, rhythm, or the color of the clothing they are wearing. See turns not as segmented movements leading to a change of direction but as an uninterrupted flow. Better yet, don't even pay attention to individual turns; rather, see the weaving and bobbing of a series of turns."

@marzNC --this is incredibly helpful, thanks so much! I'm a Doer, I guess,working on my Feeler and watcher abilities makes a lot of sense. Thanks again!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I am adding to my small bag of tricks for teaching in talking to my instructor buddies. If we have a big class they often tag team us with another instructor so that's very helpful also. Lots of ideas everywhere. The lesson I had last year from mount snow when I took a class was this teacher had an endless of tricks. He'd been teaching a long time and he kept pulling different "tips/tricks" out of his hat for me until he found what work and then he just capitalized on that. My private lesson at Mont Sutton last January was phenomenal also. Both instructors adapted to what worked for me and that's what I try to do whenever I have a student.

 

[Pequenita]

I write this as an observation and not with judgment....but, if you've ever posted at length here about a lesson or skill you've been working on/want to improve, or read about how to improve a skill (and get something out of it), you probably have strong Thinker learner tendencies.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I write this as an observation and not with judgment....but, if you've ever posted at length here about a lesson or skill you've been working on/want to improve, or read about how to improve a skill (and get something out of it), you probably have strong Thinker learner tendencies.

Definitely not me, then.

 

[Pequenita]

Definitely not me, then.

Lol. Merely an observation.

 

[marzNC]

I write this as an observation and not with judgment....but, if you've ever posted at length here about a lesson or skill you've been working on/want to improve, or read about how to improve a skill (and get something out of it), you probably have strong Thinker learner tendencies.

Interesting thought. Wonder if those who read every Diva thread about technique are Thinkers?

One reason I know I'm not a Thinker when it comes to improving my skiing is that reading about ski technique or a drill makes little sense until after I've learned how to do it based on seeing someone demonstrate. Used to be mostly a Watcher for ski lessons. Rarely asked questions during a lesson. As the article suggested, I started doing a few things differently the second or the third season I was taking lessons more regularly. One suggestion for a Watcher was to ski faster. It definitely helped at a certain point to ski slightly faster than was comfortable, both on groomed and ungroomed terrain.

One of the advantages of working with one instructor for a while is the comfort level goes up. So more likely to ask questions. Doesn't have to be that often to help. For Alta, I've only had four lessons with Arthur. Two in 2014 and two in 2016. He was out injured in 2015. It was still much easier to get going in 2016 because I'd worked with him before. Also the reason sometimes I do two lessons with the same instructor during a ski trip, usually when I'm skiing more than a week.

 

[Olesya Chornoguz]

Well on this forum we all like to think ant talk about skiing technique, right? I think the learning style categories refer to how people behave in lessons. I say I'm a Thinker because I think about instructor says to me in lesson/during lesson before I do it and sometimes ask to explain more what they mean/want with a certain drill. It's not enought to just see how they do it. I'm ok with a more detailed explanation from instructor in a lesson. Actually I may prefer a more detailed explanation. Some other may not, they just want to either just ski or watch/replicate. That is what I think about these learning styles.

 

[Jenny]

Well on this forum we all like to think ant talk about skiing technique, right? I think the learning style categories refer to how people behave in lessons. I say I'm a Thinker because I think about instructor says to me in lesson/during lesson before I do it and sometimes ask to explain more what they mean/want with a certain drill. It's not enought to just see how they do it. I'm ok with a more detailed explanation from instructor in a lesson. Actually I may prefer a more detailed explanation. Some other may not, they just want to either just ski or watch/replicate. That is what I think about these learning styles.

This sounds very familiar. I remember telling one instructor that if they told me to do something and I kind of stood there for a minute with a blank expression on my face it's because I was processing/analyzing what they said first. And also that if they caught me doing it right they should try to tell me right away, so I could then know what it felt like to be right. I can't just watch.

 

[tinymoose]

I am mostly definitely not a Thinker. I get nothing out of listening someone tell me something, nor do I do well with overly detailed explanations of anything (skiing, gymnastics). I do best to see it demonstrated and then try it for myself with feedback. This probably also plays a part into why I am a terrible teacher. I can never explain to someone how I do something, I just do it and know what it feels like.

ETA: At least I now know why so many of you like these detailed discussions on technique that I just skim past.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I say I'm a Thinker because I think about instructor says to me in lesson/during lesson before I do it and sometimes ask to explain more what they mean/want with a certain drill. It's not enought to just see how they do it.

I think I like having both...

What about those of us whose first impulse is to talk back? Argue? Talking (thinking aloud?) helps me learn for sure.

 

[marzNC]

I think I like having both...

What about those of us whose first impulse is to talk back? Argue? Talking (thinking aloud?) helps me learn for sure.

No question that it's best to work with an instructor who takes into account your learning style and adjusts as needed. The most experienced instructors I've worked with can essentially teach parallel "private" lessons at the same time if teaching more than one student. For me, that's why I get a lot out of semi-private lessons with friends who are also advanced regardless of their learning style.

Figured out how that could work from a few Silver Clinic lessons (Massanutten, Walter) where someone else showed up. Not only was Walter usually dealing with a different learning style, the other students were intermediates who hadn't had a lesson in a long, long time. Of course, $40 for 2 hours made it easier to along and see how it would go. I learned more than I expected that way. Perhaps because I'm a Watcher during a lesson.

Here's what Abraham had to say about Thinkers and questions:
". . . You like to ask questions, but because others may not share your curiosity and inquisitiveness, you may see them as superficial. You are sometimes a loner."

Probably worth remembering this was written in 1982. Back then I would guess that most of the students spending money on lessons for themselves were men. But I could be wrong. @nopoleskier ?