Think I need more than slight adjustments.....
Me too. That's what it's in quotation marks.
There might be some stunned silence, though.
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Determining lesson levels
- Thread starter santacruz skier
- Start date
Me too. That's what it's in quotation marks.
There might be some stunned silence, though.
santacruz skier
Angel Diva
I would love to ski with you.... I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from you but think we would have fun!Me too. That's what it's in quotation marks.
snoWYmonkey
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So nice to hear that that the guys felt that lessons can increase their enjoyment of the sport. Some sessions can lead to frustration, not success. I hope theirs and yours continue to bring smiles to your faces and good memories. Just returned from a one day moto camp, and half day MTB camp. Both had begginers to racers in same group and pulled it off brilliantly. I was impressed. Though that would not work for most lessons.
Mary Tee
Angel Diva
I don't think I will be at Diva West (but one never knows, plans could change), however, my brother has a house in Jefferson, which I think is a little over an hour from Royal, so I can day trip from there. I will definitely keep in touch as we get closer to the season...I would really love to do this.
SallyCat
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@nopoleskier You mentioned something that piqued my curiosity: what does it mean to teach fall line skiing? And how does that work with beginners? Conversely, what is the PSIA approach to beginner instruction if they don't teach skiing in the fall line?
I'm just learning myself, and I'm really curious about what the different approaches would look like. Thanks!
I'm just learning myself, and I'm really curious about what the different approaches would look like. Thanks!
nopoleskier
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Usually beginners are taught basic skilks. Wedging wedge turns riding the lift. Learning the skier code. Safety iS a priority. Most don't get to parallel or stem Christie turns until later. giving beginner to much to info they are overloaded. I find explaining fall line and how it affects your turns helps my students understand when the trail is dropping off to one way or the other why you must press harder. I like to point out where the fall line is on a trail or isn't.. turning in the fall line is the easiest smoothest place to turn. If on a cross fall line trail one must adjust their angles of skiing and the amount of pressure.. to understand fall line stand at the top of hill and roll an imaginary ball down the trail or think of a ribbon of water if it was running down the trail. You'll notice sometimes it goes into the woods or if a well designed trail will roll straight down the middle. Make your turns around the line you are following and you'll have even pressure on each turn. When the fall line goes into the woods you must apply more pressure or get sucked into the woods. Beginners usually are applying equal pressure in a wedge and it's scary to get pulled into the woods but if you are reading the trail while going down you can anticipate when to steer away and if you know why gravity is taking you there you can make adjustments and not be so scared.. my objective is a safe comfortable fun skiing experience and when a student learns to read the trail and fall line it is just that. I try to always ski the fall line for the smoothest ride. Hope this helps. If we were on snow together it would be easier.
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SallyCat
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@nopoleskier Thanks! That makes perfect sense, and I really like the approach.
nopoleskier
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
was typing on my phone.. sorry for all the typos. I thought I fixed them now on my laptop.. plenty of oops.. Glad it makes sense.. try it when you get on snow.. it does make skiing so much easier :-) IMHO..
snoWYmonkey
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
My understanding is that few areas, includig Jackson, require any type of certification for new hire instructors. Destination resorts tend to end up with more higher level instructors because they pay well enough for us to want to pursue careers in teaching skiing and commit to the investment of certification. Additionally, with more instructors that are DECLs/PSIA trainers-examiners on staff it is easier to attend local clinics and they are more frequent, and the encouragement to do so is there. Also, many major resorts incentivise us to get additional certifications by compensating us better with each level/accreditation.
Many of our instructors remain uncertified for years. Some are not very adept at skiing when first hired, but show aptitude and ability to change their skiing in the hiring process which is more important than being a good skier with no ability to change.
In Jackson Hole, we have not only a very large group of level 3 instructors, but also one member of the national Demo team, and a many DECLs on staff as well. We are lucky.
Tvan
Angel Diva
marzNC
Angel Diva
Forgot about this thread . . . it's a good one.
Just had a semi-private lesson at Taos with my ski buddy JC. It was a bit different than my usual pre-arranged semi-private lessons since it was a "group" lesson but well worth while at $70 for 2.5 hours. Our relatively young instructor was new to Taos. He's a former college and pro racer (bad non-racing injury ended his racing career a few years ago). He is not PSIA certified. However obviously knows plenty of drills, has had lots of coaching, and can ski anything at Taos.
The start of the lesson was typical. A few drills on groomers as we made our way over to the area where we would ski next. He demo'd a few drills (thousand steps, pick up the inside ski) and watched us ski. Next we did some short bump lines on the sides of groomers. Ultimately, we did a double black after about 90 min. That took a lot of work, but I and JC were glad to have the experience. The double black was long . . . really long . . . but only a few sections were very steep. Snow was great, blue sky day. The last lesson run was on easy bumps for a solid finish to the morning. JC and I had skied that set of bumps a few times during our first few days at Taos. The difference after the lesson was very obvious. Meaning we definitely learned from the lesson, even if it was mostly because of deliberate mileage on g00d terrain for practicing bumps as opposed to active teaching.
We gave our instructor a tip based more on the length of time than the cost of the lesson. At Alta, a semi-private for two skiers for 2.5 hours costs $325, or $162.50 per person, or $65/hour. For a very experienced instructor, any rate less than $75/hour is good.
For those who don't know us, JC and I are about the same age (~60) and quite close in skiing ability at this point. He learned as an adult and was skiing easier bumps and trees starting a few decades ago but only gets to ski 15-20 days a season because he's a working professional. We started doing adults-only ski trips together in 2010 (Tahoe Diva Week). I learned in middle school but didn't start skiing out west regularly until age 50 (retired). I became a solid advanced skier after age 55 with the help of lessons with various Level 3 instructors (Massanutten, Alta, other places in Rockies). JC and I do ski trips together because our spouses don't ski, usually with other friends, including my ski buddy Bill (retired).
Lessons with experienced instructors are great. However, it really helps to ski with ski buddies who are a bit better or much better who have the patience for being a leader or sweeper for "adventure" runs on ungroomed terrain. Skiing with JC and Bill during a few trips out west gave me the incentive to invest the time and money in lessons when I knew I would continue with ski trips to big mountains for the next decade . . . or two or three or more.
Just had a semi-private lesson at Taos with my ski buddy JC. It was a bit different than my usual pre-arranged semi-private lessons since it was a "group" lesson but well worth while at $70 for 2.5 hours. Our relatively young instructor was new to Taos. He's a former college and pro racer (bad non-racing injury ended his racing career a few years ago). He is not PSIA certified. However obviously knows plenty of drills, has had lots of coaching, and can ski anything at Taos.
The start of the lesson was typical. A few drills on groomers as we made our way over to the area where we would ski next. He demo'd a few drills (thousand steps, pick up the inside ski) and watched us ski. Next we did some short bump lines on the sides of groomers. Ultimately, we did a double black after about 90 min. That took a lot of work, but I and JC were glad to have the experience. The double black was long . . . really long . . . but only a few sections were very steep. Snow was great, blue sky day. The last lesson run was on easy bumps for a solid finish to the morning. JC and I had skied that set of bumps a few times during our first few days at Taos. The difference after the lesson was very obvious. Meaning we definitely learned from the lesson, even if it was mostly because of deliberate mileage on g00d terrain for practicing bumps as opposed to active teaching.
We gave our instructor a tip based more on the length of time than the cost of the lesson. At Alta, a semi-private for two skiers for 2.5 hours costs $325, or $162.50 per person, or $65/hour. For a very experienced instructor, any rate less than $75/hour is good.
For those who don't know us, JC and I are about the same age (~60) and quite close in skiing ability at this point. He learned as an adult and was skiing easier bumps and trees starting a few decades ago but only gets to ski 15-20 days a season because he's a working professional. We started doing adults-only ski trips together in 2010 (Tahoe Diva Week). I learned in middle school but didn't start skiing out west regularly until age 50 (retired). I became a solid advanced skier after age 55 with the help of lessons with various Level 3 instructors (Massanutten, Alta, other places in Rockies). JC and I do ski trips together because our spouses don't ski, usually with other friends, including my ski buddy Bill (retired).
Lessons with experienced instructors are great. However, it really helps to ski with ski buddies who are a bit better or much better who have the patience for being a leader or sweeper for "adventure" runs on ungroomed terrain. Skiing with JC and Bill during a few trips out west gave me the incentive to invest the time and money in lessons when I knew I would continue with ski trips to big mountains for the next decade . . . or two or three or more.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Reminds me of the old joke -
Printer is broken. Office manager calls the repair guy. Repair guy comes out, looks at the printer, pounds it good one time, and the printer works again. Presents a bill - $500.
Office manager objects - what? I could have pounded the printer myself! I want an itemized bill!
Repair guy presents the itemized bill:
Pounding printer: $5
Knowing where to pound it :$495
-----
But ... really, was there no active teaching? I would find that surprising.
marzNC
Angel Diva
When we were skiing bumps, the young former racer instructor mentioned a tip or two. But nothing similar to what I've heard from Level 3 instructors at various stages of learning to ski bumps at Bridger, JH, Alta, and Massanutten (2011-2016). Note that we asked a few questions, but weren't really expecting to work on technique improvement that much in a single lesson. Had I been really interested in lessons for this trip, I could've done a 3-lesson package for $170 (3 times, 2.5 hours each). In that case, I would've asked to switch instructors after learning more about our instructor's lack of teaching credentials. There were 6-8 other instructors left at line up that morning, including my schoolmate (Examiner). I was more interested in more skiing and less talking. Especially since I was demo'ing Stockli Stormrider 85 skis with serious thoughts of buying them.
On the long double black (Longhorn), the instructor was mostly pointing out which section of the trail was better snow or lower bumps. No different technique suggestions than what he'd said about the much less steep bump sections off Lift 4 we'd done earlier in the lesson.
The bonus that day was free skiing with my schoolmate in the afternoon. He had plenty of suggestions for bumps as he showed us Walkerie Glades (me, Bill, Jason, Olesya). However, what I was most interested in learning was how to get there and the easiest way down. That said, when I went in later in the week I was not looking for the easiest way down. Just knowing that option existed was enough for me to go exploring other ways of skiing the glades that involved steeper terrain. Especially when the weather changed so it wasn't obvious whether or not the snow would be soft or firm or frozen.
nopoleskier
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@Mary Tee Next Thursday Feb 23 is Royal Mt https://royalmountain.com/ FREE Demo Day.... I'm going to try and not have any lessons but if you can make it up let me know, usually it's not very busy and if I say I have a friend in town usually I am off :-)
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@marzNC I see. Well, I guess as long as you got what you wanted out of the lesson ...
I've actually sometimes asked my instructor to stop talking. Let me just ski for a while and try to implement what you've already told me - my brain is full! Did that this past Saturday. After 2-3 runs with several suggestions every run, and lots of stopping, I asked for some time to feel it out. He readily agreed, and a few times that day thanked the group for being vocal about what we wanted, not just going along. (Not that I'm saying that you did that, but just a reminder to everyone that instructors - good instructors - don't want you to march along even if you aren't getting what you want. They want you to get the most out of the lesson, and sometimes that means getting out of the way.)
I've actually sometimes asked my instructor to stop talking. Let me just ski for a while and try to implement what you've already told me - my brain is full! Did that this past Saturday. After 2-3 runs with several suggestions every run, and lots of stopping, I asked for some time to feel it out. He readily agreed, and a few times that day thanked the group for being vocal about what we wanted, not just going along. (Not that I'm saying that you did that, but just a reminder to everyone that instructors - good instructors - don't want you to march along even if you aren't getting what you want. They want you to get the most out of the lesson, and sometimes that means getting out of the way.)
Mary Tee
Angel Diva
Thanks for thinking of me. I would love to come up, but since I am taking time off from work for Diva East, I can't take the additional day. I will probably try to demo some skis at Stowe, and would love pick your brain for suggestions.
newboots
Angel Diva
I've taken a couple of lessons with SkiMangoJazz, who can overwhelm you with suggestions and explanations. The other day, he was working with me on flattening the skis before initiating the turn, and one other thing, I can't remember. He asked how it was going, and I said, "I can think about one, and then the other, but I can't think about both at once." He said, "then just focus on flattening the ski." SO helpful! I get nowhere if I'm trying to concentrate on more than one new skill.
