Whatcould the problem be?

[Amie H]

I've posted elsewhere that this season I bought Stökli Nela 80s after discussing with
local ski shop what I was looking for.
My other pairs of skis - that I have zero discomfort/pain/,trouble with are:
2017 Rossignol Temptation 84 (i believe a ski often used as a rental) and K2 True luv, in a 77 waist. Both are 146 length (I'm 5'2" and let's say over 150lbs.)
The Stöklis are 149 length and 80 waist.

I noticed my first day skiing them in November, after a bit, I was getting an unusual pain in my lower quad, just above my kneecap.

I should note, I also got new footbeds AND heel lifts put in my boots when I bought the skis.

That unusual-for-me ache occurred in Beaver Creek, too. I felt defeated.

I took lifts out of my boots as my first suspicion of the problem. Took the Rossignols out this weekend and was ripping away, mostly black runs (Wisconsin black runs, though, not difficult.) Zero discomfort all weekend. I thought i "fixed" the problem.

Took the Stocklis out today at a local bump. My lower quads are throbbing:(

I tried a few different adjustments to my posture. Usually it's always a forward stance, have never had "backseat" issues until now, so I have to actively fight that.

This hill is so small, my Strava said I took 30 runs in two hours! I kept doing the same run, maybe 15 times, trying little adjustments. Sometimes I felt pretty good, then the next run was doggie doo.

I'm puzzled bc I skied over the weekend in my other skis and know that I can rip all night long in those with no pain, in fact when I'm skiing them, I feel GREAT.

New skis have a Marker Squire binding.
Old skis are Marker TCX 11.0

The mount points are different, but I chalked that up to the length difference.
Any ideas, ladies?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

I’ve gone down the ramp angle rabbit hole myself. I learned many newer bindings that are GripWalk compatible are flatter. Ie. My 5-6 year old marker squires have a higher heal piece than toe. My newer Pivots a much smaller drop. That ramp angle can affect stance. Maybe another thing to consider.

Although I just noticed both are GripWalk so they may already be similar.

 

[Amie H]

Here is a picture of the toe pieces for comparison, I don't see anything of note.

 

[shadoj]

Given the mount points, there's a lot more (i.e. a few cms) ski in front of your foot on the Nela's vs. the Rossi's: tail rocker length looks similar, even if the Nela's (appear to?) have a bit more tip rocker. This requires a bit more consistently-forward stance to pressure the shovels and engage them in the turn; the Nela's should reward you when you do. A "centered-but-not-backseat" stance might not cut it for accessing the sweet spot on these skis, depending on how your body's COM (center-of-mass) is distributed This might be why you're a little sore/tired -- still driving a bit too much from the tails, but subtly self-correcting. Just guessing in hopes it helps!

Have you taken a lesson yet on the Nela's?

 

[Amie H]

@shadoj the Nelas have a lot less rocker than the Rossis or K2s. And almost no tail rocker.

I also thought it looks like more than 3cm of difference in how much ski is out front in the Nelas vs my other skis.

Can I ask my shop to re-mount??? That probably wouldn't be good for the skis...

 

[edelweissmaedl]

The lesson is likely a good suggestion. I got myself to a lesson first time out on my new Nela's (wider than my old skies as I got the 88's but only 1cm longer) I used to think the effective edge was similar to my BP's but now believe they have nearly 4 inches more or 10cm. May be more of a change than it seems.

 

[marzNC]

2017 Rossignol Temptation 84 (i believe a ski often used as a rental) and K2 True luv, in a 77 waist. Both are 146 length (I'm 5'2" and let's say over 150lbs.)
The Stöklis are 149 length and 80 waist.

I just looked at my notes from the Alta Demo Day in April 2022. I took out a number of skis that were relatively narrow. I mostly did two runs on groomed and ungroomed snow, but only one run (off Collins) if I could tell quickly that the skis were either a great fit for me or clearly not fun. Most people were interested in wider skis so I was able to get on quick a few different models that day. It was a bit warm by the afternoon.

What jumps out looking at my list is that the Nela 80 has a TR of 14.0, which is noticeably different than the other skis I checked out. I owned the Head Absolut Joy for skiing in the east for several years. It was an older model with slightly different specs that I got at a shorter length on purpose given where I was going to use those skis: 148cm, 127-78-107, R 11.0.

Blizzard BP82 @159, 120-82-104, R 12.5 - fun on groomers
Head Total Joy @153, 134-85-113, R 11.9 - too short, obvious on steep
Head Absolut Joy @158, 131-79-109, R 12.2 = fun in general, 11:30am
Stöckli Laser MX @159, 118-67-99, R12.6 - carving easy
Stöckli Nela 80 @157, 121-80-106, R14.0 - fun in general, soft bumps, 2pm
Head Total Joy @158, 134-85-113, R 12.9 - the right length, soft bumps
Head SuperJoy 129-75-108, R 11.3 - carver but more work than Laser MX
Head Total Joy @163, 134-85-113, R 13.8 = too long, harder to turn

My Stöckli Stormrider 85s are 159cm with a turn radius of 13.5. I can quickly tell if my form is off, especially on groomers. By the time I bought them at Taos five years ago, I'd become a solid advanced skier. I've continued to work on technique with annual Taos Ski Weeks and semi-private lessons with friends 2-3 times per season.

What I have starting in 2023 as my "east coast" skis were Volkl Yumis from 2018 that I bought from a Ski DIva who is also petite. The stats are 123-84-104, R 12.9, 147cm. I knew I liked Yumis for the intended terrain and snow conditions because I demo'd that particular model and length at my home hill in 2018. I had a good time with them in VA/WV last week. I ski faster now on groomers than when I had the AJs.

Can't remember when I started paying attention to turn radius. Had learned a while back that turn radius differs base on length, even for the same model. What is the turn radius of the skis you like compared to the Nela 80? Note that often it's hard to find the turn radius for shorter length.

 

[marzNC]

@shadoj the Nelas have a lot less rocker than the Rossis or K2s. And almost no tail rocker.

I also thought it looks like more than 3cm of difference in how much ski is out front in the Nelas vs my other skis.

Can I ask my shop to re-mount??? That probably wouldn't be good for the skis...

The Stormrider line and the Nela line that replaced it have flat tails. That's probably why they can be a lot of fun, but they are not that forgiving.

When I demo'd the Stormrider 85 (on short slopes in PA) the first time, the dealer moved the demo binding between the two runs. It clearly made a difference. After the move, I liked the skis even more. When I bought them after two days renting them as demo skis at Taos in 2017, we didn't talk about the mount position. Le Ski Mastery is the biggest Stöckli dealer in the USA, so I simply trusted that Alain would set them up correctly. He did.

A binding re-mount once or twice is okay. But not a good idea if you are likely to sell the skis.

 

[Amie H]

Thanks, all. Finding a lesson for anything outside of never evers and race kids around here will be tough. I'll look.

I'm going to keep playing around with them and take them on my local trips so I can switch to my "comfy" skis if I care to. There are flashes of "getting it" while skiing then the next run, not so much, so I think there is potential...

I would not sell these skis; if anything I'd pass to my sister who is same boot length, she would just need DINs dialed down bc she is skinnier than me!

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Can you ask for a recommendation for an instructor for a private lesson? That would really help you focus on your skiing style and the skis.

 

[Amie H]

Can you ask for a recommendation for an instructor for a private lesson? That would really help you focus on your skiing style and the skis.

I live in the Midwest.

If anyone knows an accomplished instructor at Wilmot, Alpine Valley (or...Villa Olivia???) who does advancing adult clinic-type work, please lmk.

Otherwise, I've never seen that happening at local hills here or in WI, just never evers.

 

[Amie H]

@Iwannaski do you still take lessons as an advancing adult?

 

[Amie H]

@shadoj the Nelas have a lot less rocker than the Rossis or K2s. And almost no tail rocker.

I also thought it looks like more than 3cm of difference in how much ski is out front in the Nelas vs my other skis.

Can I ask my shop to re-mount??? That probably wouldn't be good for the skis...

Also @shadoj my normal stace is aggressively forward. I learned that when I bought the Rossignols in 2018 from an instructor at Loveland (CO.) That forward stance, which is amazing on my other skis, on the Nelas doesn't feel good at all, I feel out of control. Instead what tends to work, at least not give me pain, is pushing harder with the balls of my feet.

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Wilmot does look a bit iffy from the website on higher level lessons (not sure how easy it would be to get a hold of the ski school)

A quick look at the web sites for Granite Peak, Cascade and Alpine Valley point to private and semi-private for any level skier. If you can't get a rec for a name.....I would call the ski school and just see if they can ensure you could get a lesson with a level 2 or level 3 PSIA instructor. I have yet to have a total dud of a lesson with anyone with a higher level cert/experience.

 

[Amie H]

Yeah Cascade, Granite, etc, those would be an overnight trip.

I'll look into Alpine Valley...

 

[shadoj]

Also @shadoj my normal stace is aggressively forward. I learned that when I bought the Rossignols in 2018 from an instructor at Loveland (CO.) That forward stance, which is amazing on my other skis, on the Nelas doesn't feel good at all, I feel out of control. Instead what tends to work, at least not give me pain, is pushing harder with the balls of my feet.

Hmmm. Driving from the ball of the foot seems good to me. Not sure why they're so tiring. Are the Nelas softer than your old skis? Curious how you'd describe your "aggressively forward" stance; I tend to think about "skiing stacked" with gentle forward pressure, with the balls of my feet as a rough balance point.

If you can't find an instructor locally, do you know anyone who might video a few turns for you?

 

[Amie H]

Hmmm. Driving from the ball of the foot seems good to me. Not sure why they're so tiring. Are the Nelas softer than your old skis? Curious how you'd describe your "aggressively forward" stance; I tend to think about "skiing stacked" with gentle forward pressure, with the balls of my feet as a rough balance point.

If you can't find an instructor locally, do you know anyone who might video a few turns for you?

There is no one who can video for me.

They are a lot lighter than anything else I own or have demoed.

I was looking at @marzNC 's demo notes. The closest thing to the nelas that I demoed were 2019 Head Total Joy's. I felt like they were made for a lighter woman...that I was over the recommended weight. I looked up online and that was correct, the recommended weight topped out at 150lbs.

I asked the ski shop when buying at least 3 times about that w the nelas, and did look up before running my credit card, and I didn't find contraindications for my body type.

I'm thinking about @marzNC 's comments about the TR. Interestingly, I have no issue doing longer linked turns w these skis (that is one of the "comfortable " things I can do with them) but with the quick turns I normally do, they throw me back.

I'm glad you ladies are talking to me w your thoughts...I will print out and take w me if/when I find a local teaching pro to help me adjust my methods.

 

[shadoj]

I'm thinking about @marzNC 's comments about the TR. Interestingly, I have no issue doing longer linked turns w these skis (that is one of the "comfortable " things I can do with them) but with the quick turns I normally do, they throw me back.

Good point by @marzNC! If you like shorter-radius turns than your ski's default, you're going to have to work them harder by pressuring them into a bend and holding that pressure, allowing them to carve a smaller arc than the sidecut radius. This is definitely a bit tiring!

Best wishes getting your technique dialed in on your new fancy skis! Can't wait for the "It clicked! Woohoo my skis are fun" post from you

 

[edelweissmaedl]

@marzNC I know it's subjective, but when do you take note of a TR difference when comparing skis? 1m less, 2 m less?

 

[marzNC]

@marzNC I know it's subjective, but when do you take note of a TR difference when comparing skis? 1m less, 2 m less?

I'm not very choosy when it comes to picking demo skis at a demo day with multiple brand tents. I find a relatively empty tent of a brand I'm curious about that has skis short enough, and take out whatever is available. Afterwards, I take a picture in order to end up the a list with my basic reaction that apply to how the skis felt to me. Essentially the comments are not technical but more a feeling that the skis were "fun," "too much work", "too long", or "too short". When I can, I take out the same model in more than one length to see how different length makes. I look up the Turn Radius for the written notes afterwards if it's not on the ski's top sheet.

I find demo'ing fun. I don't buy skis very often. I've bought used skis more than once from a Diva. I like to have an idea of current models in case a deal happens to come up, or if I need to rent skis for some reason. Knowing that I liked the Yumi during a couple short demo runs at Massanutten meant I knew they would be fun and I happened to be looking for a new pair of skis for the east coast when a pair were posted for sale.

I assume I could tell the difference between TR 11.x and 14.x. Between 11.x and 12.x . . . hard to say. My first all-mountain skis were 75 underfoot, probably TR around 12.0 (only have TR noted for a longer length). I'm a lot stronger and better skier compared to when I bought those skis after a few days demo'ing them at Diva West in 2010. While I have learned to carve, I'm much more interested in improving technique that works well in soft snow, meaning in trees or deep powder at big mountains out west. I have never had any interest in running gates for any type of racing.

The Stormrider 85 I bought in 2017 after demo'ing at Taos has TR 13.5 @ 159cm. The new-to-me Yumi has TR 12.9. I don't have any problem bending either of my current skis, but can tell pretty quickly when I've gotten lazy. Especially on a slick groomer, usually because it's been skied off by the afternoon.