Twin tips vs flat tails for AT skis?

[Teeble]

Hi all, my head is spinning with the various possibilities, so hopefully you can help!

I'm working on putting together my first alpine touring setup. I'm 5'2", 110 lbs, and an advanced skier... I can handle pretty much all blacks in the north east, except for ones that include hucking off ledges. Last season I got Blizzard Black Pearl 152s, which I love. I handle them pretty well, but have a little difficulty with them making tight turns in steep trees.

So for AT skis I was highly considering getting the Line Sir Francis Bacon Shorty 155s, until a ski shop employee told me that twin tips are not great for skinning up, especially with steeper terrain. BUT I've seen in other posts that people use Atomic Milleniums and Armada VJJs for touring. I'll probably use this setup mostly in the northeast backcountry for the time being, but might take them out west on the occasion that I get out there. Also trying to not break the bank, since I just bought a new alpine setup last year. Any suggestions for good skis / ski lengths? Thanks in advance!!

 

[bounceswoosh]

I have a setup but haven't toured much yet. But from my limited experience, what I've found is that skiing down after skinning up is quite a transition. I always feel like a newborn baby deer. Everything feels wrong those first few turns, and I've already worn out all the muscles I'm going to use now to ski. So for me - easy skiing rules the day. A pair of skis I can confidently maneuver when I'm tired.

I think the reason people advise against twin tips is because it means you're pushing through a greater volume of snow. For me, all of my touring decisions have been oriented around improving my downhill experience, not my uphill (except for the new boots I'm currently getting fitted, but that's another conversation). Most advice on AT skiing will be about reducing weight and work on the uphill. This will inevitably result in a compromised experience on the downhill. You need to decide for yourself if you want to prioritize getting up faster and with less effort, or if you want to prioritize the skiing experience on the way down.

 

[pinto]

Flat tails are better for kick turns and for planting the end of the ski in the snow when you aren't in it, for whatever reason (I do it so they don't skitter away, but there are other uses as well).

 

[bounceswoosh]

Flat tails are better for kick turns and for planting the end of the ski in the snow when you aren't in it, for whatever reason (I do it so they don't skitter away, but there are other uses as well).

Or, yeah, what Pinto said =)

All of this is still possible with twin tips, though.

 

[pinto]

Well, yeah, it's possible to ram a curved tail into firm snow, sort of, but I'd much rather use a flat tail.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Well, yeah, it's possible to ram a curved tail into firm snow, sort of, but I'd much rather use a flat tail.

So far, my AT skis have never been purpose-bought - they've always been repurposed downhill skis after I moved on to something shinier. I specifically mounted the latest with my AT bindings because the skis are my "houseshoe skis" - just very forgiving and easy to get along with, which is what I want in touring situations.

Perhaps one day I'll buy a lightweight BD or G3 or DPS or something and take AT parameters into consideration =)

I guess what you've pointed out is that I have no idea what I am talking about in this domain - but I'm learning, so that's good!

 

[snow addict]

Flat tail as above. You will appreciate it if you need to do a kick turn on a steep climb. Generally in touring uphill efficiency is very important since you will be limited in time. You set your destination and determine the route and variations for a plan B, but you also set the timeframe within which you must reach your destination to stay safe. If you are for some reason not making the time you have to turn around and usually the rest of the group too. So you need an equipment that help you to achieve your goals. Your downhill will improve anyway through exposure to different techniques and different equipment if this is a concern. When I am back on normal gear after a day tour I am flying - every move comes naturally and almost forget I have skis attached. As for the length try not to go overboard and don't get skis that will go above your head. Still, check the terrain you will be touring and speak with people familiar with it. Short climbs through some mellow terrain can be done on any ski.

 

[Ringrat]

Flat tail. For all the reasons listed above. I find them easier to deal with for skins too. I know plenty of people who have no problem with it, but I've also seen tail clips slip off a twin-tip ski.

 

[altagirl]

I've seen people who go touring on any heavy, ridiculously rockered or twin tipped ski that they happen to own and enjoy skiing downhill on. Same story with using Alpine Trekkers instead of AT bindings. All of that adds up to what would be a pretty miserable climb for the average human being. It CAN be done, but isn't really a recipe for fun. Flat tails definitely make sense for touring. I know, not being an expert at skinning by any means, that having every bit of those skins possible making contact is helpful too when things get steep.

 

[Pequenita]

Flat tails are better for kick turns and for planting the end of the ski in the snow when you aren't in it, for whatever reason (I do it so they don't skitter away, but there are other uses as well).

Anchors.

Oh, OP also asked about lengths, skis...my current/first AT setup are K2s, when they combined their telemark and AT skis to make one "backcountry" line: the "—back" line. It looks like they've downsized to two widths of the Talkback. I'm also from the camp of going shorter/same length on backcountry skis as compared to alpine skis, so I'd say ~153-ish for the for the OP. But, people have different preferences on this.

I'm not super religious about demoing. Buuuut, I haven't read any reviews on these K2s yet. Or last seasons. May be a good place to start.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Dang it, you guys. I was perfectly happy with my AT ski until this conversation.

 

[Teeble]

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, it seems like flat tails are the way to go, especially for a newbie to touring.

It looks like they've downsized to two widths of the Talkback. I'm also from the camp of going shorter/same length on backcountry skis as compared to alpine skis, so I'd say ~153-ish for the for the OP. But, people have different preferences on this.

I'm not super religious about demoing. Buuuut, I haven't read any reviews on these K2s yet. Or last seasons. May be a good place to start.

So just from a brief search, the widest Talkbacks are 98 underfoot. For someone of my size/weight, do I really need more than that? Ha, as one person told me, I should float on pretty much everything.

Has anyone skied in the Remedy 102s?

 

[Pequenita]

So just from a brief search, the widest Talkbacks are 98 underfoot. For someone of my size/weight, do I really need more than that? Ha, as one person told me, I should float on pretty much everything.

Mine are 92mm. I'm 5' ~100lbs. I think NE backcountry skiing is very variable conditions. I've never gone in New England in the dead of winter, but my sense is that given how tight trees can be there, the typical freeze thaw pattern, and your size, 98mm underfoot will be fine. Also figure that because of how difficult rescues can be, most people do not ski steeper/more risky terrain in the backcountry than they would in bounds. For me that also cuts toward having a skinnier ski. Oh, and if you're skinning with fast people, a skinnier ski will cut back on some (marginal) weight.

btw, once you get to bindings, I think that's where your size will really be an advantage. You can basically get the lightest bindings out there without great fear that you'll break them. Of course, those are not cheap.

 

[jellyflake]

Hi, for me (just skinning for the run down - and I have never done real moutaineering stuff) it does not matter too much whether there is a flat tail or a twin tip.
Yes, kick-turns can be easier with flats, but for not too steep uphill it does not matter (in my opinion).
Just make sure that you have skins that can easily be attached & fixed with the twin tip tail. Nothing is more annoying than a loose skin...

If you concentrate more on the uphill then don't listen to me - that is not so much my sport then.

 

[Kimmyt]

My AT skis are 96 (older Volkl Aura). Honestly, much of the time I'm bc skiing the conditions are, how to say it nicely....variable. If its a straight up powder day, I'm much more likely to go to a resort and ski safe steep inbounds stuff. And at my weight/height, 96 underfoot is perfectly fine for up to 10" powder day.

 

[arbusch]

Sorry late to the game. I have flat tails (atomic century) and rocker skis (atomic millenniums) for the backcountry and that is what I mostly do since we don't have a major resort where I live but we do have mountains. Flat tails are useful all the reason stated above. Yet, I end up using my millenniums more than my centuries now in the backcountry because the millenniums are just so much more fun on the downhill on powder and variable condition days. Last weekend we skied in some really high wind that was icing the snow before we bailed. I was on my millenniums - so I had to think about where I took off my skis since I had less purchase on the snow and make sure I dug them into the sidehill prior to ripping my skins. I do keep my skis on during the transition. My skins never come unattached when skinning on either skis and hasn't been an issue.

I always tell people to pick a ski that they want to ski and enjoy skiing on. You can almost make any ski work in the backcountry.