frenchgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have done both drills before and I will try again the second one today.
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Technique help
- Thread starter frenchgirl
- Start date
I have done both drills before and I will try again the second one today.
Skisailor
Angel Diva
Early weight transfer IS one of the key aspects to carved turns! 
While traversing a slope your weight should be more on your downhill ski, but to initiate the turn (i.e. just prior to the turn), you actually shift your weight onto the uphill ski and then ride it around the turn where it becomes the new (already weighted) downhill ski.
Even though you begin weighting the uphill ski to initiate the turn, the upper body should still be moving down the slope, with hands and shoulders facing downhill. That's probably one of the harder aspects and it's where hand/ski pole position and pole plants can really help.
IMHO, late weight shift is one of the primary barriers that keep intermediate skiers from taking the next step toward expert carving.
A great visual demonstration of early weight shift can be found on the Lito Tejada-Flores instructional videos. He teaches a somewhat dated (older) method of skiing, so some would not recommend his stuff, but there are also many Divas here who say his videos helped tremendously (and I am one of those). Personally, I think if you are one of those people who learns more visually, his videos are really fantastic. In fact the strength of the Lito videos is that they really concentrate on the skier at your stage - the ones trying to move from primarily skidding to primarily carving.
Hope I haven't steered you wrong - I'm sure mountainxtc can chime in if anything I've said above is problematic. What I wrote is just one way of thinking about turn initiation - I've left out the edging, ankle movements, etc. because IMHO, those are the finesse part that comes after you get the gross, overall body motions down.
While traversing a slope your weight should be more on your downhill ski, but to initiate the turn (i.e. just prior to the turn), you actually shift your weight onto the uphill ski and then ride it around the turn where it becomes the new (already weighted) downhill ski.
Even though you begin weighting the uphill ski to initiate the turn, the upper body should still be moving down the slope, with hands and shoulders facing downhill. That's probably one of the harder aspects and it's where hand/ski pole position and pole plants can really help.
IMHO, late weight shift is one of the primary barriers that keep intermediate skiers from taking the next step toward expert carving.
A great visual demonstration of early weight shift can be found on the Lito Tejada-Flores instructional videos. He teaches a somewhat dated (older) method of skiing, so some would not recommend his stuff, but there are also many Divas here who say his videos helped tremendously (and I am one of those
). Personally, I think if you are one of those people who learns more visually, his videos are really fantastic. In fact the strength of the Lito videos is that they really concentrate on the skier at your stage - the ones trying to move from primarily skidding to primarily carving.Hope I haven't steered you wrong - I'm sure mountainxtc can chime in if anything I've said above is problematic.
What I wrote is just one way of thinking about turn initiation - I've left out the edging, ankle movements, etc. because IMHO, those are the finesse part that comes after you get the gross, overall body motions down.
litterbug
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Unintended pun?
There seem to be lots of ways to initiate and execute turns, each of which has a dozen variations! I've just learned a smeary/slippy/something turn involving keeping the skis not completely flat but not highly edged, either; it starts with flat skis, then a CM crossover caused by a push of the old inside (now uphill) ski which causes the skis to tilt but keeps them fairly flat through the fall line.
I love this because it lets me eliminate all the defensive antics I engaged in when a little carving resulted in a lot of speed even with many turns, because the friction of flatter skis lets me control my turn shape and speed throughout the turn. I now find myself projecting forward and skiing faster--sometimes even with partially carved turns--down steeper terrain, while feeling free to insert a moment of smearing in the fall line just to make me feel secure. And it's a lot easier than other things I've tried to make up.
I love the graceful feeling of carved turns, but I guess that given my age and condition I need to make a more gradual progression towards the speed a carved turn creates. Meanwhile, I'm not ashamed to use the smeared/patience/whatever turn.
MaineSkiLady
Angel Diva
Why the negativity here? This “holy grail” of the carved turn is starting to kind of bug me....I guess that given my age and condition I need to make a more gradual progression towards the speed a carved turn creates. Meanwhile, I'm not ashamed to use the smeared/patience/whatever turn.
What you are doing on the learning curve is amassing a vast variety of skills and maneuvers, ALL of which you will use.
Think you’ll never need a wedge maneuver again? Been headed into a tight lift line with the need to suddenly brake out? You didn’t carve to a stop. You wedged. It is a useful tool. Would you use it to turn? Probably not, at your stage/level. But you know how/where/when to use it.
Take a look at some of the extreme skiing footage in any number of commercial films in the last decade. Watch them skiing the mega-steep. Carving? Not. They are doing what you described above, along with super-speed-checking. What’s steep to you is where you incorporate those skills.
And it’s FINE.
Do what’s comfortable, give yourself the space and time (AND confidence) to learn all these skills, one by one, and know that all of them will get put to good use.
Age and condition be darned.
The carved turn is not the holy grail. It’s one of many types of turns, incorporating many different skills. Eventually you will hardly have to think about which one to use, where. It will just....happen.
Go easy on yourself.
And don’t forget to HAVE FUN!!
Skisailor
Angel Diva
to MaineSkiLady!She and I are definitely on the same page regarding this subject.
It's all good. Keep building your ski technique tool box (if you want to improve and open up more and more terrain to play on) and have fun all along the way.
That said, I don't think you should go away with the idea that "carved turns" = "high speed". Carved turns can be high speed, especially when you open them up and do big GS turns - way fun! But they don't have to be high speed. Once you learn the carving skill you learn to use the terrain slow down . . . i.e. stay in the turn longer . . . . rather than needing to smear or skid to scrub speed. And that is a way of skiing that is really easy on your legs! Carved turns can also be shortened up into little swing turns that allow you to descend a slope pretty darn slowly.
Just didn't want you to have the wrong idea. Other than that . . . what MaineSkiLady said! No negativity about the smeared turn! :D
There are times when carving is absolutely the wrong technique to apply!! By all means learn how to do it. But don't put it up on a pedestal, and by doing so, make yourself feel bad about what you are doing.
Serafina
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I gotta say, she's not the only one who is getting the message that Carved Turn = Ultimate Technique. I have received that message too. Darned if I know where I got it, but I definitely have it.
Fortunately, my years of experience as a college professor have gifted me with a supremely thick skin and an unwillingness to bow to subtle pressures...and when I do some good carving, I'm all stoked up about my nice clean lines...but for the most part, I am happy to get down the face, in control, doing nice rhythmical pole plants, gracefully dancing with the hill and the snow, keeping myself directed down the fall line, and generally - as my husband says - looking like the Slowest Ski Instructor on the Planet. (yes, any time we are on the lift and I tell him to point out the people he thinks I ski like, he always identifies a ski instructor. I take that as a compliment.) People blaze past me all the time, but I do not care.
So...thank you, MSL and SkiSailor, for reminding us that Carving is not Everything.
frenchgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks everyone for your help! I was also able to look at my videos in VERY slow motion and figure what some of my problems are.
contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Why the negativity here? This “holy grail” of the carved turn is starting to kind of bug me.
What you are doing on the learning curve is amassing a vast variety of skills and maneuvers, ALL of which you will use.
Think you’ll never need a wedge maneuver again? Been headed into a tight lift line with the need to suddenly brake out? You didn’t carve to a stop. You wedged. It is a useful tool. Would you use it to turn? Probably not, at your stage/level. But you know how/where/when to use it.
Take a look at some of the extreme skiing footage in any number of commercial films in the last decade. Watch them skiing the mega-steep. Carving? Not. They are doing what you described above, along with super-speed-checking. What’s steep to you is where you incorporate those skills.
And it’s FINE.
Do what’s comfortable, give yourself the space and time (AND confidence) to learn all these skills, one by one, and know that all of them will get put to good use.
Age and condition be darned.
The carved turn is not the holy grail. It’s one of many types of turns, incorporating many different skills. Eventually you will hardly have to think about which one to use, where. It will just....happen.
Go easy on yourself.
And don’t forget to HAVE FUN!!
Boy did I need to read this! I am my worst critic. Thanks for that--so helpful!
deannatoby
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Carving is kind of the "holy grail." Even worse, it feels like you have to do it to be part of the "Cool Girls." I was pretty peer-pressure unaware when I was young, would stand my ground without thinking twice, but I must say at the ripe old age of 43 I want to be a "cool carver." I want to be able to sit at the ski table and use worse like "crud" and "death chunks" and talk about how I "ripped 'em up," "had a yard sale" (that means fell?) or "burned the shed" 
and all that stuff I hear people on this forum say. Right now I basically say I skied from side to side and got down the mountain. Heck, I can't even talk about skiing in powder yet!:(
I guess peer pressure has finally caught up with me.
and all that stuff I hear people on this forum say. Right now I basically say I skied from side to side and got down the mountain. Heck, I can't even talk about skiing in powder yet!:(I guess peer pressure has finally caught up with me.
mountainxtc
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks MSL for your last post. Carving is one of many tools and I personally don't consider it to be anywhere close to the holy grail of skiing. If I had to pick one, my holy grail would probably be "adaptability"....
The vast majority of skiers never learn to carve and still finish each run with ear to ear :D s!!
frenchgirl: post your vids.
The vast majority of skiers never learn to carve and still finish each run with ear to ear :D s!!
frenchgirl: post your vids.
snow addict
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Unintended pun?
There seem to be lots of ways to initiate and execute turns, each of which has a dozen variations! I've just learned a smeary/slippy/something turn involving keeping the skis not completely flat but not highly edged, either; it starts with flat skis, then a CM crossover caused by a push of the old inside (now uphill) ski which causes the skis to tilt but keeps them fairly flat through the fall line.
I love this because it lets me eliminate all the defensive antics I engaged in when a little carving resulted in a lot of speed even with many turns, because the friction of flatter skis lets me control my turn shape and speed throughout the turn. I now find myself projecting forward and skiing faster--sometimes even with partially carved turns--down steeper terrain, while feeling free to insert a moment of smearing in the fall line just to make me feel secure. And it's a lot easier than other things I've tried to make up.
I love the graceful feeling of carved turns, but I guess that given my age and condition I need to make a more gradual progression towards the speed a carved turn creates. Meanwhile, I'm not ashamed to use the smeared/patience/whatever turn.
I am confused now, I thought that skis are always flat when going down the fall line. They have to go flat to change edges when carving, no?
Appennini gal
Certified Ski Diva
This “holy grail” of the carved turn is starting to kind of bug me.
What you are doing on the learning curve is amassing a vast variety of skills and maneuvers, ALL of which you will use.
Think you’ll never need a wedge maneuver again? Been headed into a tight lift line with the need to suddenly brake out? You didn’t carve to a stop. You wedged. It is a useful tool. Would you use it to turn? Probably not, at your stage/level. But you know how/where/when to use it.
Take a look at some of the extreme skiing footage in any number of commercial films in the last decade. Watch them skiing the mega-steep. Carving? Not. They are doing what you described above, along with super-speed-checking. What’s steep to you is where you incorporate those skills.
And it’s FINE.
Do what’s comfortable, give yourself the space and time (AND confidence) to learn all these skills, one by one, and know that all of them will get put to good use.
Age and condition be darned.
The carved turn is not the holy grail. It’s one of many types of turns, incorporating many different skills. Eventually you will hardly have to think about which one to use, where. It will just....happen.
Go easy on yourself.
And don’t forget to HAVE FUN!![/QUOTE]
Thank you Maine skilady, I feel like I should post your message all over my mountain. The all "carving craze" is so big here in Italy where I ski, that you hardly see a pair of skis with a waist wider than 7o. The saddest part of it all is that the majority of people can only carve clean turns on flatter terrains and they don't hesitate doing it even on the busiest days where the slopes are filled with beginners. Seeing those guys flying down through little kids learning is the scariest thing I've ever seen!
What you are doing on the learning curve is amassing a vast variety of skills and maneuvers, ALL of which you will use.
Think you’ll never need a wedge maneuver again? Been headed into a tight lift line with the need to suddenly brake out? You didn’t carve to a stop. You wedged. It is a useful tool. Would you use it to turn? Probably not, at your stage/level. But you know how/where/when to use it.
Take a look at some of the extreme skiing footage in any number of commercial films in the last decade. Watch them skiing the mega-steep. Carving? Not. They are doing what you described above, along with super-speed-checking. What’s steep to you is where you incorporate those skills.
And it’s FINE.
Do what’s comfortable, give yourself the space and time (AND confidence) to learn all these skills, one by one, and know that all of them will get put to good use.
Age and condition be darned.
The carved turn is not the holy grail. It’s one of many types of turns, incorporating many different skills. Eventually you will hardly have to think about which one to use, where. It will just....happen.
Go easy on yourself.
And don’t forget to HAVE FUN!!
[/QUOTE]Thank you Maine skilady, I feel like I should post your message all over my mountain. The all "carving craze" is so big here in Italy where I ski, that you hardly see a pair of skis with a waist wider than 7o. The saddest part of it all is that the majority of people can only carve clean turns on flatter terrains and they don't hesitate doing it even on the busiest days where the slopes are filled with beginners. Seeing those guys flying down through little kids learning is the scariest thing I've ever seen!
frenchgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Carving is kind of the "holy grail." Even worse, it feels like you have to do it to be part of the "Cool Girls." I was pretty peer-pressure unaware when I was young, would stand my ground without thinking twice, but I must say at the ripe old age of 43 I want to be a "cool carver." I want to be able to sit at the ski table and use worse like "crud" and "death chunks" and talk about how I "ripped 'em up," "had a yard sale" (that means fell?) or "burned the shed"
I guess peer pressure has finally caught up with me.
:D :D
means your poles and skis are all over the place due a fall. It is not something I care to experience, especially under the lift.OK I will post my video tonight as I am going skiing this morning. It will be full of things of what NOT to do!
litterbug
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I meant exactly what Appennini said. My comment about the disapproval of certain (mostly testosterone-poisoned) purists was intended to dismiss their criticism. I'm a lawyer, and I know when someone needs to shout about how everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong, they don't really know what they're talking about. I don't need to impress them or belong to their clique of special people.
The snowplow is a critical skill, but it isn't the best turn for powder, cruddy ice or icy crud, or 12 inches of fresh on a groomer, so I was very happy to master another method, which immediately gave me access to a lot more terrain. Carving is just one technique among many, and it's fun to pretend for just a moment that I'm Bode Miller or Didier Cuche (I'm just as nuts, in my own way). I'm delighted to add my lovely smeared/steered turn as a more subtle, higher-speed tool to restore my sense of control if I need to. Which gives me more confidence to try more. Hell, on that perfect afternoon, I was looking at some crazy-wonderful looking blacks and thinking "sure, I could ski that"!
The best thing about finding forums like these is locating the people who ski for the same reason I do--for the sheer joy of slipping and sliding, sometimes staggering, sometimes dancing, down a mountain, surrounded by snowy trees and snowy peaks and, after an explosive yard sale, snowy me!
The snowplow is a critical skill, but it isn't the best turn for powder, cruddy ice or icy crud, or 12 inches of fresh on a groomer, so I was very happy to master another method, which immediately gave me access to a lot more terrain. Carving is just one technique among many, and it's fun to pretend for just a moment that I'm Bode Miller or Didier Cuche (I'm just as nuts, in my own way). I'm delighted to add my lovely smeared/steered turn as a more subtle, higher-speed tool to restore my sense of control if I need to. Which gives me more confidence to try more. Hell, on that perfect afternoon, I was looking at some crazy-wonderful looking blacks and thinking "sure, I could ski that"!
The best thing about finding forums like these is locating the people who ski for the same reason I do--for the sheer joy of slipping and sliding, sometimes staggering, sometimes dancing, down a mountain, surrounded by snowy trees and snowy peaks and, after an explosive yard sale, snowy me!
litterbug
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Seeing those guys flying down through little kids learning is the scariest thing I've ever seen!
I hate that! :duck: The funniest advice that instructor gave me--only half kidding--was to swing my poles sideways when I see a bunch of eraser-heads barreling towards me. They'll think I'm some idiot, but they'll steer wide to avoid hurting their inflated egos.
Can you tell I've just discovered smilies?
Skier31
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There are 3 things we can do with a ski:
Tip it. (edging skills)
Turn it. (rotary skills)
Pressure it.
All skiers from never evers to Olympic racers use a combination of these skills to ski. Wedge turns use a combination of edging, rotary and pressure. Try doing a slow wedge turn on flat terrain -it is not as easy as you might think. The combination depends on snow conditions, terrain, the speed at which you want to ski etc.
Carving is simply an edging skill. Skiing on flatter skis is also an edging skill or to be more precise, a lack of edging skill. The goal is to be able to make your skis do want you want.
I have been working on bumps for my Level 2 exam for the past couple of seasons. A few weeks ago, I did a race camp where we focused on turns with huge edge angles etc. Initially, I thought this would screw up my work in the bumps, but what it did was open my eyes to the huge spectrum of edge angles. I feel like I have much more control over what edge angle I need in any particular terrain.
Also, I do disagree with skisailor's weight shift statement. Weight transfer happens during the turn. Actively shifting the weight to the uphill ski during the turn intiation, often results in a step move or push off move which is a hard habit to break. I prefer to focus on releasing the downhill ski and extending the hips into the direction of the turn. The weight shift will happen.
Tip it. (edging skills)
Turn it. (rotary skills)
Pressure it.
All skiers from never evers to Olympic racers use a combination of these skills to ski. Wedge turns use a combination of edging, rotary and pressure. Try doing a slow wedge turn on flat terrain -it is not as easy as you might think. The combination depends on snow conditions, terrain, the speed at which you want to ski etc.
Carving is simply an edging skill. Skiing on flatter skis is also an edging skill or to be more precise, a lack of edging skill. The goal is to be able to make your skis do want you want.
I have been working on bumps for my Level 2 exam for the past couple of seasons. A few weeks ago, I did a race camp where we focused on turns with huge edge angles etc. Initially, I thought this would screw up my work in the bumps, but what it did was open my eyes to the huge spectrum of edge angles. I feel like I have much more control over what edge angle I need in any particular terrain.
Also, I do disagree with skisailor's weight shift statement. Weight transfer happens during the turn. Actively shifting the weight to the uphill ski during the turn intiation, often results in a step move or push off move which is a hard habit to break. I prefer to focus on releasing the downhill ski and extending the hips into the direction of the turn. The weight shift will happen.
Serafina
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I want to be able to sit at the ski table and use worse like "crud" and "death chunks" and talk about how I "ripped 'em up," "had a yard sale" (that means fell?) or "burned the shed"
ROFL! I had a big yard sale a couple of weeks ago, and a little one last Friday. It's when you wipe out on a slide and leave your gear scattered up the hillside where everyone can check it out. I'd rather see one than be one! My 1st one this season littered the slope with 2 poles and a ski. The one last week was only a pole. Neither of them was a spectacular fall...just one that happened to divest me of gear and leave me some distance away from it, and down the hill. My biggest one was 2 poles, a pair of goggles, earmuffs, my scarf, part of my jacket, and a ski. This was back in the days of straight skis and no helmets, or I'm sure my helmet would have joined the string of trash littering the slope. Now *that* was a spectacular wipe out.
Burning the shed is doing some gutsy thing that makes total sense at the time, but upon later reflection, may not sound like the most sane choice to have made. Doesn't mean it is something to be regretted.
I can't remember where you are located, but I find - from years of XC skiing, and now the Alpine action - that it is really helpful to have the 100 Eskimo Words For Snow. Largely because some of them imply highly desirable conditions, worth changing other plans so one can take advantage of them; and some of them imply highly undesirable conditions. It doesn't help that words have different meanings in different places - I get the impression that "crud" has a very different meaning for New England skiers than it does for Colorado skiers.
And I consider any run that I got down safely and had a great time doing it as a run I ripped up!
litterbug
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That's a great way to say it, Skier51--skiing is about tipping, pressuring, or rotating skis. I don't know much about actively rotating them, but who knows, I might be doing it now without realizing it. All I've learned is a new combination of those things that is as useful as anything else, just another tool in the kit.
frenchgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
OK. Here's the video. I am the one with the hot pink jacket. The video was taken on a easy blue trail. It used to be a green many moons ago, but it has 2 sharp turns and beginner used to fall so they made it a blue. I apologize for the poor quality, but It is the best I have so far.
I ski on the Atomic Cloud 9, 151cm, 73 waist with Full Tilt Lady boot which have a progressive(bottomless) flex, very soft tongue.
I had a chance to look at it yesterday on a BIG screen computer one frame at a time and saw:
1. My left leg wants to wedge, for some reason. It does that even when I go straight on a flat terrain. I am fully aligned, per the bootfitter and have custom footbed. I realized today that the only way I can make that leg(ski) go straight is to lift the big toe(the left one) up. That may be the reason why I tend to bring the left foot in quite abruptly and why I fall on my left side(luckily I always fall when I go slow)
2. It looks like I am on my heels even though I was forward pushing on my tongue pretty much the whole time.
3. I look stiff. My instructor jokes that I need to head to the bar before a lesson.
4. My poles are not always in front of me (shame on me!)
5. I have a hard time edging on my outside foot(no matter which foot)
Today I was trying to make my left leg be more parallel, and it has a mind of its own. I do not understand why I have this problem if I am fully aligned.
I think that fixing that problem would be a huge help.
[YOUTUBE]K8Q6okObNfM[/YOUTUBE]
I ski on the Atomic Cloud 9, 151cm, 73 waist with Full Tilt Lady boot which have a progressive(bottomless) flex, very soft tongue.
I had a chance to look at it yesterday on a BIG screen computer one frame at a time and saw:
1. My left leg wants to wedge, for some reason. It does that even when I go straight on a flat terrain. I am fully aligned, per the bootfitter and have custom footbed. I realized today that the only way I can make that leg(ski) go straight is to lift the big toe(the left one) up. That may be the reason why I tend to bring the left foot in quite abruptly and why I fall on my left side(luckily I always fall when I go slow)
2. It looks like I am on my heels even though I was forward pushing on my tongue pretty much the whole time.
3. I look stiff. My instructor jokes that I need to head to the bar before a lesson.
4. My poles are not always in front of me (shame on me!)
5. I have a hard time edging on my outside foot(no matter which foot)
Today I was trying to make my left leg be more parallel, and it has a mind of its own. I do not understand why I have this problem if I am fully aligned.
I think that fixing that problem would be a huge help.[YOUTUBE]K8Q6okObNfM[/YOUTUBE]
litterbug
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
OK, I have one: you're turning your whole body as a unit. One of the most useful things I've ever known about skiing is that, one way or the other, your body should be facing downhill--in the direction you're going, not necessarily the direction you're heading while you're turning.
Generally, the only time my shoulders are facing in the same direction as my hips is when I'm facing my destination--almost always the fall line (unless I'm going across a slope that tilts toward one side of the run or another). One way to make your upper body face downhill is to point both your poles towards your destination--which is usually different from the way your hips are pointing. You can even sort of punch them downhill. After the snowplow, this was the most helpful thing I learned about skiing.
What this does is start you towards shifting your weight in a way that actually makes both skis turn; instead of you trying to twist them on edge, your weight pulls your skis into a tilt.
Others will have ideas on how to make this happen.
Another thing I try to do before starting a run is to bounce a little in my boots to remind my knees that they're flexible. Stiffening my inside leg was one of my big problems, and I was doing it because I was nervous and tensing up.
Generally, the only time my shoulders are facing in the same direction as my hips is when I'm facing my destination--almost always the fall line (unless I'm going across a slope that tilts toward one side of the run or another). One way to make your upper body face downhill is to point both your poles towards your destination--which is usually different from the way your hips are pointing. You can even sort of punch them downhill. After the snowplow, this was the most helpful thing I learned about skiing.
What this does is start you towards shifting your weight in a way that actually makes both skis turn; instead of you trying to twist them on edge, your weight pulls your skis into a tilt.
Others will have ideas on how to make this happen.
Another thing I try to do before starting a run is to bounce a little in my boots to remind my knees that they're flexible. Stiffening my inside leg was one of my big problems, and I was doing it because I was nervous and tensing up.
