skidding as well as carving

[whitewater girl]

I came across this quote online:

the dichotomy of the edge is you can use it as a high edge carve or you can use it as a low edge pivot. Skiers have to become used to using both applications of the edge because a heavy edge setting in bumps and trees and powder gets you in trouble...skidding as well as carving; it's the other application of the edge...

...thoughts on this?

...ever since I've been skiing (what, @ 5 yrs now? maybe it's year 6), I've heard that while you can get away with skidding, carving is the goal...this is the first I've really heard that it might not be the best way to handle some skiing situations (O.K., maybe I should have followed a few more threads here!)...and while powder here in central NY is mostly a fantasy, I've never been able to feel "in control" trying to carve in trees & bumps...(yes, I've taken lessons - I've been told what to "practice" but never what the goal is or to what purpose - I'm realizing now how much I may have been assuming...)

(btw - thinking about it, I realize that "powder" conversations dispute my statement "this is the first I've really heard that it might not be the best way to handle some skiing situations"...I guess I mostly view powder as something theoretical; what rare, thin powder we've gotten here since I started skiing, I simply pounce & play in & don't worry much about what it is I'm really doing...)

 

[altagirl]

Yeah, I put trees and bumps in the area where carving is not the optimal way to ski. IF you have a nice carvable line through the trees, that's great. But often, you will find yourself in a spot where you are better off making a nice long smear (where you're just sliding sideways straight down the fall line) for a little bit before the next nice carvable line is available. Same goes for when you're skiing through crud and have either rocks sticking out or are lining up for a tight spot you need to pass through... With old skinny skis, this was easy to do on a groomer but hard to do in cruddy snow. But now that fat skis are so common, you can smear a turn whenever you want and it gives you more options.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

this is the first I've really heard that it might not be the best way to handle some skiing situations (O.K., maybe I should have followed a few more threads here...)

Keep hunting, we had a good discussion on this going about a ?month? ago. Will link it if/when I have time. It involved the benefit of understanding the sideslip through drills like straight-down-fall-line-sideslip, pivot slips and the venerable "falling leaf" drill. (I remember DH practicing these endlessly for his L2 exam, decades ago.)

This was an integral aspect of the learning curve back in the straight ski days - and I stood corrected by a number of current instructors that it still is regularly taught. But pre-shaped-skis, it was the first kind of turn taught, leading up to carved turns (which were advanced in those days).

Now it's all different (seemingly, at least to me), and the carve is right there, much earlier. So a lot of people who started "after the revolution" tend to question this whole concept and its application and appropriateness. You are probably utilizing it far more than you realize. If/when you take another lesson, bring this up. There are a lot of fun and interesting drills that incorporate the engagement/disengagement of edges (whirlybirds being one, a/k/a on-snow 360's) that utilize steering and where it all works best (per altagirl, above).

 

[Jcb2ski]

I know I use the skid a lot in the old style of skiing and am now working on breaking that and carving more. Can do it pretty well on green and not so well on blues yet. get nervous with not having control so I slip back into the skid. How does one move out of doing this as much?

Be very interested in knowing suggested ideas. Hard to break the old way I find.
Thanks.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0&feature=related

Much more out there on YouTube. Have a look. Also links to full-length dvd's, etc.

 

[iisemily]

this link maybe of interest
https://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_ski_instruction/instruction11.html

 

[MaineSkiLady]

this link maybe of interest
https://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_ski_instruction/instruction11.html

Fabulous! The venerable Lito T-F online, should have figured. Do I recall correctly that there are DVD's? Always liked the presentation and writing style.

 

[whitewater girl]

Cool! Thank you!

 

[mountainxtc]

I think the word skidding has been a little misused... a skid, in my opinion, occurs when you push the skis away from you and is undesirable in any situation. What we are talking about here I think is use of a carved turn or a steered turn (steering being a combination of pivoting the skis underneath the body and edging). You use this in various degrees. For example, when ripping steep, deep pow, you are generally using more pivot, less edge so you don't get hooked up or sink in. skiing crud or off piste, you add more edge, but still pivot the skis as your turn. On groomers and hard pack, you can edge exclusively, increasing or decreasing the edge angle to lengthen or shorten the turn. Different applications in different environments.

So the quote is correct, but the word skidding has been misused.

 

[abc]

Well, just change the terminology.

Skid is bad, smear is the new skid.

It's the same action of pivoting the skis around the axis which is your leg. But the "smear" word is the current fashion.

 

[Skisailor]

Fabulous! The venerable Lito T-F online, should have figured. Do I recall correctly that there are DVD's? Always liked the presentation and writing style.

There certainly are! Lito is my fav . . . and the DVDs are really wonderful in every way. Can't recommend them highly enough. I've made real breakthroughs by watching them (over and over :D). And they are so beautifully filmed it's also an aesthetic pleasure that draws you in.

Just bought and read his new book "Soft Skiing - The Secrets of Effortless Low-Impact Skiing for Older Skiers". I find his writing and descriptions to be very clear and easy to follow. And most importantly, I really love his philosophy of skiing and skiing technique.

 

[mountainxtc]

the "smear" word is the current fashion.

never heard it used here.... but then again, fashions are different in different areas. there's the whole rotation/pivoting issue between the US and Canada and we really don't need to get into that!!

 

[Jilly]

I think you and I would call it skidded the CSIA term!

A lot less edge!

 

[Jcb2ski]

thanks Jilly,
I was told by instructors I have a tendency to skid or kinda fish tail when I turn on a steeper terrain. So always have thought of it as a skid. Now with the new skiis want to get away form it but not always easy. I even find I do it on easy terrain.
Still trying to edge more and finf this hard, not sure why though.

 

[altagirl]

When I'm talking about smearing, essentially what I mean is a pivot slip thrown in to draw out a turn here and there as necessary when you're skiing off piste. The people I know call it smearing a turn, or buttering a turn (like spreading butter on bread - you're just skimming over the surface without digging in an edge). Obviously not technical terms, but they seem to make sense and are what I've heard at steeps camps, etc.

I will admit that when you hear "skidding" - I think of people making those Z-turns where you're just pushing your heels out, which is pretty ugly form. When what you want is to be nice and centered while releasing the edges so you are skidding/smearing/buttering down the fall line until you are ready to re-engage the edge and go back to turning.

Obviously, I'm not an instructor - but hopefully that makes sense.

 

[missyd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0&feature=related

Much more out there on YouTube. Have a look. Also links to full-length dvd's, etc.

Thats a very informative video how to carve!!!!

 

[w.ski]

When I'm talking about smearing, essentially what I mean is a pivot slip thrown in to draw out a turn here and there as necessary when you're skiing off piste. The people I know call it smearing a turn, or buttering a turn (like spreading butter on bread - you're just skimming over the surface without digging in an edge). Obviously not technical terms, but they seem to make sense and are what I've heard at steeps camps, etc.

I will admit that when you hear "skidding" - I think of people making those Z-turns where you're just pushing your heels out, which is pretty ugly form. When what you want is to be nice and centered while releasing the edges so you are skidding/smearing/buttering down the fall line until you are ready to re-engage the edge and go back to turning.

Obviously, I'm not an instructor - but hopefully that makes sense.

This is just how I would describe smearing (or buttering, have also heard it called feathering). You let up on the edge angle and let your skis drift slightly in the turn so you tighten up the turn and slow down some. you're still doing a rounded turn, not just pushing the tails of your skis out and doing z turns.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Thats a very informative video how to carve!!!!

I put this into use yesterday on a wide, easy run, and it was FUN! Really helps feel the side cut and carve!

 

[missyd]

I put this into use yesterday on a wide, easy run, and it was FUN! Really helps feel the side cut and carve!

I will try it out the next time I go skiing!

 

[evaino]

I've been re-learning how to ski ice this year and it's been really interesting. It has in fact changed my perspective on this topic. I now think that the goal of an expert skier should be to never skid or smear (see bump/off-piste exception below), but rather be able to steer through any turn.

This has been a major conceptual change to my skiing, and a major improvement.

I think the important distinction though, is understanding the difference between steering and carving. If you just carve on a steep icy pitch, it won't take long before you are skiing VERY fast. This is because carving alone will not get your tips across the hill; instead you spend most of your time with your tips near the fall line. Often people's reaction to this is to achieve speed control by skidding through the end of the turn instead. This can work, but in truly icy terrain, when you are skidding, you are not truly in control. The ideal approach is to pivot while carving (aka sterring). So you're on edge, but while on edge, you are actively turning your ski.

This is challenging, but once you get it, it is very liberating as it provides much more controlled skiing than skidding does (and it looks better too ). A couple of tips that help is to engage the new edge early, but to engage it gradually.

As for bumps, I believe the carve or not carve is a matter of style choice as much as it is technique. I sometimes ski bumps the CSIA way - carving/steering through it all - but I also like to mix it up with some skidding/smearing/buttering so that I can set myself up to smash into a bump and then pivot around or pop off it. That makes me happy. It's probably not the "proper" way to do it, but it's fun, so I fully support it. I think same applies for off-piste. Although I do think it is a good idea to be able to carve through any bump or off-piste run because that is a much more controlled way to ski, and it's nice to be able to turn that on if a situation requires it.

Elsbeth