Overcrowding at Epic and Ikon resorts

[RachelV]

Any A-basin skiers here? How has the parking situation been since the switch to Ikon?

A-Basin is like a new mountain this year. The reduction in crowds has been very noticeable and parking has been no problem. I’m very curious to see how the spring shapes up — I wouldn’t be surprised if many Ikon pass holders were saving most of their 5 days for the spring, which is when A-Basin really shines imho.

 

[Christy]

Came across a recent article that mentions how often Deer Valley and Powder Mountain reach their limits on day tickets. The limit for DV is 8500, which is only reach 8-10 days per season. PowMow has already reached it's limit 7 days already, presumably during the holidays. Usually has sold out 15-20 over the course of a season since the limit policy was established.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/2020/01/25/washington-ski-resort/

From the article:

So might Utah’s ski areas consider closing down their ticket booths, especially on their busiest days? Ski Utah spokeswoman Anelise Bergin said she doesn’t think it’s in the near future.

Bergin pointed out that part of Crystal Mountain’s recent backlog was caused by road closures to the two other major resorts situated within two hours of Seattle: Snoqualamie and Stevens Pass.

That is quite untrue. Closures at those other passes/ski areas did not coincide with the epic traffic and parking issues at Crystal. Also they spelled Snoqualmie wrong.

 

[ski diva]

Well, THIS is nuts: Vail on a 17" powder day. Really, things are out of hand.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=187573042450713

 

[Christy]

It's not even a weekend.

 

[RachelV]

I honestly don't know how all those people got to Vail with the roads as bad as they are.

 

[Christy]

Meanwhile, we have been so pummeled by storms, and heavy snow followed by rain, that the Cascades have been a real mess of closed ski areas and closed roads. Crystal has been closed for days and will still be closed tomorrow. There are three landslides across the only highway to get there. The Cascades are supposed to get 12–18 inches of snow overnight so I imagine whatever is open and accessible will have epic lines.

 

[Christy]

I have to think there might be some lines at Crystal if they open Sunday.

 

[mustski]

As most people know Crystal is my home mountain. I didn't realize Deer Valley limited Ikon holders for seven days. That is a great idea. It might not be enough, but it's a place to start.

Deer Valley Is the only Alterra owned property where the ski days are restricted. The base pass has blackout dates but all other # day type restrictions are limited to partner resorts that aren’t Alterra owned.

 

[newboots]

That line at Vail would turn me into a Nordic skier for sure.

 

[Christy]

With Crystal inaccessible due to landslides, and with Ikon passholders getting seven days at Snoqualmie Summit ski areas, the predictable happened today. There were lots of unhappy commenters on social media. Apparently people had to wait an hour for the shuttle, because they don't usually have full parking lots (the shuttles are meant to get people between the various ski areas if they want to move around). I feel bad for passholders there. They already make a big compromise with terrain and snow quality for the proximity to the city, and it's crowded enough – – and now they have to deal with Ikon crowds.

 

[teppaz]

The multi-resort passes get a bad rep but I'd like to bring up something that does not often come up in discussions about overcrowding: the explosion of detailed forecasting (eg Open Snow) that helps stoke powder frenzy. Local skiers can be quick to be angry at IKON or Epic holders, seemingly forgetting that 1) locals can have those passes as well and 2) locals are part of the crowds rushing to the hills to get some of that pow.

So yeah, the passes have made it easier for lots of people to go out and ski, but there are other contributing factors — including a demographic explosion in cities near some resorts, like Denver or SLC. I was just at Taos on an 18" day and there were no lines because the closest city, Santa Fe, has only about 85,000 people and the biggest agglomeration, Albuquerque, is three hours away.

 

[Christy]

I think actually we have discussed the growing populations of western cities and locals buying passes quite a lot on this forum. That's definitely the case here at the ski areas in the Cascades. I don't think any city has grown at a faster rate than Seattle and the mountains both with hiking and skiing have been overwhelmed. Tourists don't come here, so we aren't blaming them. Maybe some have started to because of Ikon but that's not why we are so busy.

But Ikon still is the problem. As I mentioned earlier in this thread and I think others, the Ikon Pass, which has unlimited access to Crystal and 7 days at Snoqualmie, was far cheaper than the old Crystal Pass. So we all bought it. And that is just way way too many people with unlimited access to Crystal. So hopefully they will decide next year to limit the number of days there, as has happened at other resorts, like A basin or Deer valley.

I can only speak to the experience of skiing here in Washington but I don't think there's been any better forecasting. I don't use open snow and I've never heard anyone here say they do. We've always had local ski forecasters, the local news has a ski forecast, etc. So I don't know that anything has changed in terms of forecasting for us.

 

[teppaz]

Sorry if I was unclear: I realize demographic growth has been covered — that was just an addendum. And I do agree passes have contributed to the crowding.

But I think sites like Open Snow do play a role by inciting pow frenzy and creating FOMO. I look at it constantly even though I’m in NYC! And I have definitely heard from locals in UT and CO who use it to plan their daily trips.

There are a bunch of factors reinforcing each other.

 

[Christy]

I'm reading the Sunday Times and I just opened the travel section to find this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/travel/ikon-epic-skiing-crowds.html

It was published in the print version as "Crowded Runs puts the Ski Industry on the Defensive." It looks like it is being rerun in a number of papers across the country under that title. But on the New York Times website, it has a different and softer title.

 

[Pequenita]

I don't use open snow and I've never heard anyone here say they do. We've always had local ski forecasters, the local news has a ski forecast, etc. So I don't know that anything has changed in terms of forecasting for us.

Open Snow has made your local forecaster more accessible, though. He posts the Cascades reports for Open Snow.

 

[Christy]

Maybe there are newcomers who had never heard of Larry Schick (I'm assuming that's what you're talking about). I just have never heard anyone say the words "open snow" or anywhere on or off the mountain here. And there are so many places to get a snow forecast. I mean, I hear about the snow forecast on NPR, on social media from the ski areas, from the NWS, from local news… it's everywhere. I'm sure part of that is because it matters for transportation. if it's going to snow a lot people are going to have a hard time getting across the mountains, so it's vital information for the news to share.

And I wonder how much the forecast matters to people anymore, since so many of us have passes. Are people powder chasing as much? I'm sure some unaffiliated people still do it. But with so many of us having these cheap passes, I have to think we're just going to where our pass is. If you have Epic, you are going to go to Stevens; if you have Ikon, you'll go to Crystal; even if Baker got 12 inches and the others got 4".

I realize all this may be specific to where I live.

 

[MissySki]

I know in the east there is a local Facebook group where there’s a great forecaster very specifically discussing areas in New England and where storms are going to favor which specific resorts etc. I’ve been thinking that this has been a very influential dynamic this season that I haven’t seen before this. A lot of people follow along, and then they post updates from said resorts and report on conditions. Not sure if this would work the same in other areas, but New England has so many resorts within a short drive of eachother that I definitely think this can influence decision making for people with and without the big passes if they are just looking for where the most snow or best conditions will be.

 

[teppaz]

I just have never heard anyone say the words "open snow" or anywhere on or off the mountain here. And there are so many places to get a snow forecast.

As you say, there are many powder forecasters. In addition to Open Snow, see also the increasingly detailed forecasts at OnTheSnow.com, PowderChasers.com, etc. I have heard and overheard quite a few people talk about making travel plans based on those sites, whether not they namecheck them specifically.

As @MissySki said, they seem to be a resource for folks who live in areas with options, eg New England, SLC, I-70 corridor in Colorado. For many of us who travel fairly long distances to ski, they are definitely part of the decision-making.

 

[Christy]

Oh, I'm not saying no one uses those apps to plan trips. It's powder chasing and sure, there are more resources, social media outlets, etc. But in this context where we are talking about overcrowding at Epic and Ikon resorts, and saying that they are a factor in this crowding.. I don't see how keeping up on the latest snowfall is channeling people to Epic and Ikon resorts.

 

[marzNC]

But in this context where we are talking about overcrowding at Epic and Ikon resorts, and saying that they are a factor in this crowding.. I don't see how keeping up on the latest snowfall is channeling people to Epic and Ikon resorts.

The impact of hearing about "powder chasing" at Epic and Ikon resorts last season probably encouraged more people to buy one of these two multi-resort passes for 2019-20. Some people will hear from friends while other will be getting "news" that is part of marketing info. The numbers I've seen imply a bigger total than last season. That means there are more people who might plan a last-minute ski trip when they learn about a snowstorm. In general, once a multi-resort pass is bought, then someone is likely to limit their skiing to locations covered by their pass. Even if there are other ski areas/resorts that are easier from a travel standpoint.

OpenSnow makes it easy to see forecasts for all multi-resort passes. Presumably that encourages passholders to follow not only their personal favorites, but also other locations on their pass.

For example, here's the 5-day forecast for Ikon in the west as of Feb. 10. Fair to say that there are plenty of other ski areas/resorts in this region. But few travelers from the east or outside N. America are likely to look up snow forecasts for those that aren't Ikon or Epic.