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Never ending boot saga continues

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#1
Hey divas,
Just got back from Jackson Hole, where I got to be on a first name basis with the boot fitter at the resort shop. I am currently in Salomon x max 110 with zipfit diva liners.

First problem: the superfeet custom insole I have been in is one of the older ones that doesn't have a flat base. I could feel my foot rocking back and forth when I was in tough terrain, even with the zipfits. So boot fitter Dave talked me into instaprint footbeds. That helped the "foot rocking when edging aggressively" issue.

Second problem: Went into the Saratoga bowl with my new insoles. Searing calf pain on the outside of my calves. Ended up taking a lot of breaks sitting on my butt on a mogul. Back to the shop. The canting work I had done on my boots in PA was" totally backwards" and they tried to adjust by posting the footbed for me, but since the canting involved planing the boots, ultimate need new shells. Well, ####.

Went to Headwall Sports (used gear store) and found a set of the same boots with no visible work done. Just scratched to hell. Bought them and ripped the posting off the footbed and stuck the whole dealio into these shells.

Third problem: The pain is back. Felt like my inner ankle was trying to over pronate and my calf was trying to compensate. Fitter taped a wedge to the outside of my liner. Viola, fixed the pain, and my alignment improved.

Fourth problem: Did the Hobacks, and found my feet cramping like a sonuva____ and I was curling my toes (not normally something I do). I cranked down my buckles cause ::something:: feels loose. After a few more turns, realized that my foot is sliding laterally in the mid and forefoot region, so I'm trying to grip with my toes. If I had to guess, felt like about 4mm of slide to the sides.

Back to boot fitter. They measured my last, 90mm on my right foot, 88 on my left. They then brought out a slew of different shells, including hawx ultra (felt big), the same shell I had to see if my used shell had been cooked (no difference), a Lange race boot (nope), and an old Fischer boot they dug out of storage (they stopped selling it years back because it was too narrow for most people). Still too wide. They ended up duct taping foam to the midfoot of the liners, but I didn't get a chance to try it cause it was the last day and the lifts closed.

The group of the boot fitters who teamed up and tried to help me (two of them masterfit) told me that my only option for the fit I want might be a race plug. They gave me the names of some people in Vermont (since I usually go there) to look into for that.

So is this the end of the road before a race plug? This is the third group of fitters that have scratched their heads and suggested that. The zipfits solved the heel lift and instep slop, and I feel like if I could just find a narrow enough shell in the last, I'd be set. I mentioned foam injected liners, and the one fitter said, and I quote, "I will do whatever I can to keep you out of surefoot. Please don't go there. Foam injected liners are crap."

I know I'm always posting about boot fit problems. I am starting to feel like I'm being a princess about it, but I really hate not being able to push myself and my skills further. I can still ski pretty well as it is, get down the double blacks, but it is sketch when I need precision and my feet are just doing the cha cha slide in my boots instead.

Also.... How long does it take for most people to get feeling back after nerve damage? I was overtighening my boots to try to fix problems in the wrong areas, and the inside side of my feet are numb from inside ankle to base of big toe.

*edited for spelling errors.
 

mustski

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#3
I mentioned foam injected liners, and the one fitter said, and I quote, "I will do whatever I can to keep you out of surefoot. Please don't go there. Foam injected liners are crap."

I know I'm always posting about boot fit problems. I am starting to feel like I'm being a princess about it, but I really hate not being able to push myself and my skills further. I can still ski pretty well as it is, get down the double blacks, but it is sketch when I need precision and my feet are just doing the cha cha slide in my boots instead.
First of all - Surefoot is not the only foam injected liners! Boot Doc liners are foam injected and just solved all my lifelong problems with foot movement. I am not as narrow as you for sure, but @contesstant is and can also speak to the amazing fit of the boot doc liners. The key is to find someone who does them and who has been doing them long enough to get it right. It's a one shot deal and does not transfer boot to boot so you have to be sure of the shell first and then get the boot doc liners.

Secondly, you are no more of a princess than the rest of us. Boot fit is the biggest PITA for those of us with narrow feet. Consider that in men's boot - a 98 last is considered narrow. In a women's boot 97 is considered narrow! Who the heck came up with that?
 
#4
It is SO hard to take up space in a boot.

Can you go with a shell size down if that gives you a narrower last?? Bootfitters can do ALOT more with routing out plastic and heating and punching out to give extra length for your toes. But they are not as good at "taking up room".

Also - have you been exhaustively through available boots in your size? Before a race plug (cold and stiff), you need to find a shop that sells alot of boot brands.

The last time I bought boots I tried at least 7 or 8 different boots by going to 4 or 5 shops - and I'm a 22 shell size - so am usually constrained in selection because there are not nearly as many 22s as the more moderate sizes.. If you are a more normal size, it may be just a matter of finding the right brand that best fits your particular foot shape. Don't get stuck in one shop and get discouraged because they don't have the brand selection that you need.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#5
I've tried on a lot of boots over the past 2 years.... Lange rx lv, technica mach 1 lv, technica inferno flings, hawx ultras, Lange race boot of some sort, whatever that ancient Fischer was.... I haven't tried the head raptor, which I am curious about.

I measure in at a 24.5, and have gone down to a 23 shell. I tried a 22 in the xmax and it was waaaaaayyy too small. I could do a 22 in the mach 1, but flexing forward it bit into my shin really bad.

I've gone to the most reputable shops in the Harrisburg/York/Lancaster area. I thought the guys at Jackson Hole would have some options for me. At this point, I may have to dedicate a whole month's worth of weekends to road tripping out of state to find a fitter and boot and get all the adjustments. Which is a drag and a lot of time on the road.

I would be willing to try boot docs, but I'm not even sure the shells I have are right for me at this point. It's the closest I've been to the correct fit, but I don't know if it is THE shell for me. It stiffens up like crazy in the cold, so I may need a softer shell, but 90 flex is usually too soft for me when I try it. Or maybe I need to get used to a softer boot.

Or maybe I need to learn to snowboard lol.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#6
Your bootfit saga sounds normal to me (because I also have been through boot hell). I feel like a bunch of trial and error is what it will take. The boot I'm in now scared me as well in the beginning, but ended up being the perfect fit.

My numb feet from too big boots responded fairly quickly.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#7
I've tried on a lot of boots over the past 2 years.... Lange rx lv, technica mach 1 lv, technica inferno flings, hawx ultras, Lange race boot of some sort, whatever that ancient Fischer was.... I haven't tried the head raptor, which I am curious about.

I measure in at a 24.5, and have gone down to a 23 shell. I tried a 22 in the xmax and it was waaaaaayyy too small. I could do a 22 in the mach 1, but flexing forward it bit into my shin really bad.

I've gone to the most reputable shops in the Harrisburg/York/Lancaster area. I thought the guys at Jackson Hole would have some options for me. At this point, I may have to dedicate a whole month's worth of weekends to road tripping out of state to find a fitter and boot and get all the adjustments. Which is a drag and a lot of time on the road.

I would be willing to try boot docs, but I'm not even sure the shells I have are right for me at this point. It's the closest I've been to the correct fit, but I don't know if it is THE shell for me. It stiffens up like crazy in the cold, so I may need a softer shell, but 90 flex is usually too soft for me when I try it. Or maybe I need to get used to a softer boot.

Or maybe I need to learn to snowboard lol.
Remember, when you drop down shell sizes the goal is not to be in a short shell, the goal is to take the smallest shell possible and make room for your foot by punching space only into areas you need space. So the boot is going to be too small to start and a good fitter will give you space in the shell and the liner.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#8
Remember, when you drop down shell sizes the goal is not to be in a short shell, the goal is to take the smallest shell possible and make room for your foot by punching space only into areas you need space. So the boot is going to be too small to start and a good fitter will give you space in the shell and the liner.
How much space can reasonably be made to lengthen a toe box?
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#9
How much space can reasonably be made to lengthen a toe box?
Lots and lots.

On another thread I've seen someone say a 3cm drop is too much but people whose feet are measuring 27 and who wear boots whose internal measurements are 25 are not squishing their feet. The boot is being lengthened in the area they need, but only in the area they need. My boot and liner was lengthened about a cm for my big toe.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#10
I've also found that I have trouble getting boot fitters to listen to me. I don't know what it is, but even when I tell them I want a performance fit, I have narrow last, low heel to instep ratio, blah blah blah going through all the history and the problems, they tend to cut me off and say "well let's just try some boots and see what you think" and I've even had some that tell me that I "don't want" to go smaller because it will be uncomfortable?! Or because "it would take a lot of shell work to make anything smaller work for you."

Dude, if you were listening to me at all, I'm not here for a comfort cruiser...and yes, let's do that shell work.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#11
Also, I'm not sure how much of a difference going down in shell size would make for this narrow of a foot. Like, maybe the last is 95mm in a 25, but my left foot is still 88mm.
 
#12
That’s a good start as long as you realize that it’s not how many models you try - it’s trying to find the BRAND whose shell moulds best fit your foot shape. From what you listed, you’ve tried 4 brands recently.

There are lots more - Head, K2, Dalbelo, Saloman, Rossignol, Nordica etc. etc.

I found that Langes are the ones that fit best for me. So it’s my go to brand when I shop for new boots.

And yes. I hear ya. It is a pain in the butt and can take a lot of time and effort. I grew up in the Philly area so I know it’s not like living in a ski town. Ugh on the way fitters aren’t listening to you. I would walk out if a fitter made comments like the ones you quoted to me. Sucks. I think we had a thread about the way women are treated in ski shops some time ago. Have you tried Salters?

But as you know, boots are EVERYTHING. We marry our boots and date our skis.

Anyway, I personally would hold off going into a race plug for recreational skiing. You’ve got more shopping to do! :smile:. It can be lots of fun.
 

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#13
"Third problem: The pain is back. Felt like my inner ankle was trying to over pronate and my calf was trying to compensate. Fitter taped a wedge to the outside of my liner. Viola, fixed the pain, and my alignment improved."

That "searing pain" most likely is the peroneal tendons. Do not, I repeat, do not injure those tendons. The tendons in my left leg were injured in an accident with a snow boarder at the lift line. I skied in pain for 2 years. Finally got pain free, skiing happily this year when a ski instructor (not mine) took me out getting off the lift 2.5 weeks ago. In pain again. Haven't skied since but hope to this week. Felt good yesterday and over did it. Now having a setback.
Also had pain, numbness on the top of my foot. It's finally settling down. Also foam rolling my calf muscles and tendons 3x per day and stretching them.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#14
I'm in a Salomon x max now, best shape for my foot so far. I haven't tried k2 or dalbello yet. Lange have too high of an instep for me. :(

Haven't tried Salters. Are they in the Philly area?
 
#15
Oh / forgot to mention - can they make some of the adjustment in you Zipfits? They can add cork to the liner then remold. Maybe that will take up some additional room?
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#16
"Third problem: The pain is back. Felt like my inner ankle was trying to over pronate and my calf was trying to compensate. Fitter taped a wedge to the outside of my liner. Viola, fixed the pain, and my alignment improved."

That "searing pain" most likely is the peroneal tendons. Do not, I repeat, do not injure those tendons. The tendons in my left leg were injured in an accident with a snow boarder at the lift line. I skied in pain for 2 years. Finally got pain free, skiing happily this year when a ski instructor (not mine) took me out getting off the lift 2.5 weeks ago. In pain again. Haven't skied since but hope to this week. Felt good yesterday and over did it. Now having a setback.
Also had pain, numbness on the top of my foot. It's finally settling down. Also foam rolling my calf muscles and tendons 3x per day and stretching them.
Yeeeeeeesh, sorry to hear that, that is awful.

I looked up personal tendons, and that looks spot on where my pain was. Thankfully it was fixed by the wedges.
 

SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#17
Oh / forgot to mention - can they make some of the adjustment in you Zipfits? They can add cork to the liner then remold. Maybe that will take up some additional room?
The zipfits do a great job around my ankles/instep/heels. It is the midfoot and forefoot lateral slide that is the issue now. Zipfits are just neoprene in those areas.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#18
I've also found that I have trouble getting boot fitters to listen to me. I don't know what it is, but even when I tell them I want a performance fit, I have narrow last, low heel to instep ratio, blah blah blah going through all the history and the problems, they tend to cut me off and say "well let's just try some boots and see what you think" and I've even had some that tell me that I "don't want" to go smaller because it will be uncomfortable?! Or because "it would take a lot of shell work to make anything smaller work for you."
Dude, if you were listening to me at all, I'm not here for a comfort cruiser...and yes, let's do that shell work.
Zipfits won't help in the midfoot and ball-of-foot area. You'll probably need to go with a plug boot given how thin your feet are.

You look young. I'm old. They treated me this way for years, and I figured it was my age plus being female. But they are doing this to you, too. The key is for you to find a shop that supplies racers, preferably one with a race room in the back, then work with their bootfitter who does the racers' boots.

I finally found a bootfitter who took me seriously, at a shop that has a race room in the back. There are several people who sell boots. I only work with the guy who fits the racers. We know each other pretty well now because I come back all the time.
 
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SquidWeaselYay

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#19
Zipfits won't help in the midfoot and ball-of-foot area. You'll probably need to go with a plug boot given how thin your feet are.
You look young. I'm old. They treated me this way for years, and I figured it was my age plus being female. But they are doing this to you, too. The key is for you to find a shop that supplies racers, preferably one with a race room in the back, then work with their bootfitter who does the racers' boots.

I finally found a bootfitter who took me seriously, at a shop that has a race room in the back. There are several people who sell boots. I only work with the guy who fits the racers. We know each other pretty well now because I come back all the time.
I am 33, but my stature and my face often get me mistaken for a teenager or a 20 something. It's a blessing and a curse. I've got a few grays going on, so maybe that will get me taken more seriously.

Before the zipfits, the instep slop was the biggest issue. Then the lateral slop became more prevalent once my heel was locked down. I'm chasing my tail.

I worked with the two boot fitter in the two different Harrisburg shops that service the local race teams, but I wasn't impressed. The one dude put me in a 24.5 Lange with shims and tongue padding, then when that didn't work he blamed my skills. I never went back.

The second dude canted me wrong, according to the Jackson Hole masterfit dude. Plus, he said the xmax is probably the best boot for my foot shape. So I'm not sure about him.

I've exhausted my local options, I have to start looking elsewhere, unfortunately.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#20
In the meantime, you can go to a cloth shop and buy a big fat roll of sticky-back Velcro. Cut strips any size and shape you want from the soft half of the Velcro, and stick onto the outside of your liners where you need filler. I've done this to the left and right edges of the ball-of-foot area of mine, and have even put second and third layers on top of each other. The sticky stuff is incredibly persistent in staying stuck. If your Velcro moves, cover it with duct tape. Your liners don't need to look good, they just need to be functional.
 

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