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Lindsay Vonn wants to race against men.
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surfsnowgirl
Banned
I think it's great and would also love to see how she does.
pinto
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think she should be a forerunner: FIS already said no to a race but yes to vörlaufer. Do that and go from there. I already made my opinion known back 4 years ago. It is all about Lindsay, it benefits no one else, all it does is create a circus and a distraction so she can see how she stacks up. That's nice, but it's really selfish. So forerun the race and see how you do.
SnowHot
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I had an interesting conversation with Genia Fuller Crews when she was inducted into the Hall of fame.
When she started competing, there were no gender classes. She had to compete with the guys and it was tough. If you were a girl, you did ski shows but rarely competed. She prides herself on the fact that she helped create gender specific competitions.
I'm not sure what that says about Lindsey wanting to compete with the dudes, but I'm not sure we want to create blurred lines in FIS Competiton
Here Genia is with a bunch of her fellow competitors on a podium. See, no women.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I certainly think there's a large element of self promotion, but I also think - elite female athletes want to show the world what they can do and want to compete against the best. And there are still a lot of men (and women?) saying that they don't watch women's sports because women aren't as athletic. So I can see wanting to push against that.
But, sure, Pinto's point about "and go from there" also makes sense. Start with the first step.
But, sure, Pinto's point about "and go from there" also makes sense. Start with the first step.
Christy
Angel Diva
+1. Especially when they're the most successful woman skier ever. And it's a sport--entertainment, really--so I can't see why it's such a big deal. It's not like we're talking about putting a really smart 8 year old on the Supreme Court to see how s/he does. It's a race. It would be interesting to see if she gets a top 30, and fun to watch regardless.
I would start thinking "why?" if it became like (teenage golfer) Michelle Wie playing in the PGA against men, when time after time she didn't make the cut. But that's not the situation.
My biggest concern would be that she would be taking herself out of one or more races to do it, thus making it harder for her to become the all time winningest racer, a record that's within reach. But that's her decision.
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pinto
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I had an interesting conversation with Genia Fuller Crews when she was inducted into the Hall of fame.
When she started competing, there were no gender classes. She had to compete with the guys and it was tough. If you were a girl, you did ski shows but rarely competed. She prides herself on the fact that she helped create gender specific competitions.
I'm not sure what that says about Lindsey wanting to compete with the dudes, but I'm not sure we want to create blurred lines in FIS Competiton
Sarah Burke, too.
Yes, I can see where LV wants to test herself against men. She has shown that she is quite dominant in speed events with women, and yes it would be interesting. I guess she only wants to do one race, which I missed before, but yeah I still think it's a lot to ask.
I guess I don't feel like women's sports are second class. They are different. Yeah, maybe the courses aren't exactly the same, but this isn't 30 years ago, either. I don't feel like we have much to prove any more ... If LV beats some boys, cool. I'm sure she can. And then what ....
As far as it being entertainment, it is for us. Not for the competitors. Can you imagine Serena trying to play a match in the men's draw at Wimbledon or something? lol ... it's ludicrous. "Oh, I just want to see how I would do." Well, fine. Do it on your own time.
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bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don't know much about tennis, so I don't know why it would be ludicrous. Wasn't there that famous tennis match umpteen years ago where a famous female tennis player beat a high ranking male tennis player? (see that's how clued-in I am about tennis)
Jenny
Angel Diva
Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs. Apparently that was the second of three men vs women matches. I never know how much to trust Wikipedia but they have an extended entry on them.
Billie Jean King
How would it not be on her own time? Are you saying she's obligated to her sponsors or fans to only race women? The way I see it, it's her career and therefore here time.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well, it's also the male racers' time.
pinto
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Exactly, that's what I meant. I just don't get the mentality to want to make people jump through hoops and change rules and create a media circus just because you feel like it. There is nothing here that helps women, IMO. It only helps LV.
BJK and Bobby Riggs was more than 40 years ago, and it was a circus, it didn't count toward anything (it wasn't in a real tournament where other players were attempting to get on with their business). Most important, it WAS 40 years ago, when many didn't believe that any woman could compete with any man, period.
At the time Billie Jean was at the top of her game, and Bobby Riggs was 55 and long retired. Still, he had just crushed the no. 1 woman player, Margaret Court, in a previous match.
Circus:
I have no problem with her wanting to race against men. I have a problem with her using a FIS race to do it. And, yes, I also have a philosophical problem with it being any sort of springboard to ... anything. As @SnowHot pointed out, the victory is having our own venue.
elemmac
Angel Diva
I have very mixed opinions on this...
On one hand, I know that she's good...very good...and wants to compete against the very best in the sport (male or female). As a female that has grown up proud of being able to "keep up with the boys" in many sports, I completely understand her motivation. So a huge part of me believes exactly what @ski diva said, "Why not? It'd be fun to see how she does."
But on the other hand, I feel like requesting to race against the men is sort of implying that she's too good for the female field of skiers, and allowing her to do so would only highlight the already huge gap between men's and women's sports. I know that's probably not what she intends, or what she's going for, but I still can't help but think this would be somewhat counterproductive to closing that gap.
Then there's the opinion sitting in the back of my head saying that if a man requested to try a race on the ladies' course, the immediate answer would be "no"...so to entertain Lindsey's idea, it's kind of a double standard.
But then again...there's no real harm done, it's one race.
But what if she wins....? Will the other competitors say that she shouldn't have raced, and create a whole new controversy of the legitimacy of the race?
On one hand, I know that she's good...very good...and wants to compete against the very best in the sport (male or female). As a female that has grown up proud of being able to "keep up with the boys" in many sports, I completely understand her motivation. So a huge part of me believes exactly what @ski diva said, "Why not? It'd be fun to see how she does."
But on the other hand, I feel like requesting to race against the men is sort of implying that she's too good for the female field of skiers, and allowing her to do so would only highlight the already huge gap between men's and women's sports. I know that's probably not what she intends, or what she's going for, but I still can't help but think this would be somewhat counterproductive to closing that gap.
Then there's the opinion sitting in the back of my head saying that if a man requested to try a race on the ladies' course, the immediate answer would be "no"...so to entertain Lindsey's idea, it's kind of a double standard.
But then again...there's no real harm done, it's one race.
But what if she wins....? Will the other competitors say that she shouldn't have raced, and create a whole new controversy of the legitimacy of the race?
Christy
Angel Diva
It should be pointed out that men and women do race on the same courses occasionally. The last one I remember is the world cup finals Super G 2 years ago--men went in the morning, women in the afternoon, same start point and everything. Gates set differently because a different coach does a different course set each race. The course had really broken down due to warm weather by the time the ladies got on it, but I remember seeing Lindsey's time and thinking she would have probably been top 20 in the men's race. It's impossible to know with the different course set and worse conditions but that was the race that really made me think I do want to see her against men.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think there are areas where we recognize that things don't work like that. Straight people complaining that they don't have a Straight Pride parade; white people complaining when black people say they're proud of being black. Those are different scenarios, but I think it's pretty obvious why, in a sport where men consistently outperform women, a woman might want to compete with the men. Harder to see why a top ranked man would want to compete against women.
There's also the fact that women often race on separate courses and certainly at different times, and the state of the course makes a big difference for race times. So arguably you can't really get a straight comparison unless you're racing with the men on the same course at the same time.
bounceswoosh
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
(Posted while Christy was posting)
sibhusky
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I really don't see why, if the male competitors signed on to the idea, that she couldn't be in a FIS-level race. That is, FIS competitors and homologation, FIS "scoring", etc. I'm sure they could find sponsors to cover the costs. The only issue is TIME. How to fit it into the schedule for all the athletes. With weather issues causing events to be rescheduled, scheduling is already a nightmare. When you add that to the disincentive for most male athletes to not get "chicked", I'm not sure how she can have this happen. She should take the forerunning option, and if she proves to be competitive and the event is successful, then she can make a better case. I don't see the concept being okay long term because if only the best women are doing it, then the women's races become "second class".
elemmac
Angel Diva
Just curious, as I don't know a ton about World Cup Ski Racing...or ski racing in general. How does one qualify for a World Cup race? Is there any way that Lindsey could qualify for the men's race? Or is it solely based on previous races, where she would need to compete in many races against the men in order to qualify?
