Ikon/Epic and the effect on skiing article

[contesstant]

I started to ski in 2018. The changes at Snowbasin between then and now are crazy. In 2018, a midweek pass was under $500 and I could get parking on the weekends. Kids under six were free.
By 2022-2023, free only for 4 and under (bc we have to be like Ikon!) Impossible to take the kids for a half day afternoon on weekends because of the parking and crowds. I think what a lot of us locals are reacting to is the speed of the change. If IKON required reservations it would be one thing, but they don't, so we wind up as SLC overflow on canyon closure days. My kids adore skiing but if we'd been thinking of starting this year instead of 2020, we probably wouldn't have learned to ski at all, and it's a shame.

It's also that Snowbasin is really a bad mountain for beginners due to the funnel into the one green route down. It's not bad if you can ski blues and know the mountain well enough to skirt those runs, but when there's low coverage? It's basically practice in emergency stops and dodging others.

I get that I'm not making them money when I ski 50 times a season and only spring for cheesy fries now and then but it's just a fast change.

It seems that those of us who ski there and have passes there and live here get it. Those who don't just think we're whiners. The changes are a money grab, and that's it. The skiing experience has been degraded X100.

This season, we are getting the overflow from Deer Valley IKON skiers who can't get reservations. Can't wait until we start getting storms and the LCC skiers swarm us like you said and chew up the powder in an hour. 4 years ago, I could go up at 2 after work and find fresh powder under the gondola on Pork Barrel. Not any more.

 

[Cpnwgsp]

There are no feeder hills for the 6 million people in western WA* and the affordable beginner deals are gone. I learned at Snoqualmie around 2006 and they had a $99 3-lesson package that included everything. Now it will be $120 for one 2 hour lesson, $40 extra for the lift ticket, $60 extra for rentals. So $220 for 1 two hour beginner lesson. The closest mom and pop inexpensive ski areas would require a weekend out of town which of course defeats the purpose of keeping costs down. I don't know if this had anything to do with the fact that Stevens to the north went on Epic and Crystal to the south went on Ikon. But the end result is that affordable skiing for the 3 million people in the Seattle-Tacoma-Everett metro area is a thing of the past.

*People who live in Port Angeles, on the Olympic Peninsula, can ski at the little non-profit Hurricane Ridge ski area, which has 2 rope tows and 1 Poma inside the national park. When they have snow, that is. But that's really far from anything else. It's also subject to not opening as the national park isn't like the state DOT in terms of keeping the road open.

This is true, but I’m not sure it’s entirely caused by Ikon/Epic passes either. Those $99 package deals at Snoqualmie were often in large groups & stopped due to Covid if I remember correctly. They shifted to smaller family/friend groups to limit exposure. It is curious they haven’t reintroduced this option.
I also don’t think ski culture is as “dead” as this article makes it seem. There are BBQs and tailgates in the parking lot at Crystal - dogs, live music, costumes etc. Despite the cost, people still come out to have a good time and enjoy some time on snow.

 

[RandomSkier]

Can someone help me understand... Why, specifically have the multi-mountain Epic/Ikon passes ruined skiing? I have never had either and my home resorts are privately owned. The main two things everyone is complaining about are crowds and cost of associated food/services/hotels. But does everyone really think those two things would be significantly improved if Epic/Ikon passes didn't exist? Do you really think there would be less bodies on the hill? Less people willing to pay for a ski vacation? That a private resort won't still gouge you for a burger or overcharge for lessons?

Population growth, a desire to keep up with the Jones', and a general increase in recreational travel is the root of all of it. That would still be the case regardless. Are any of these complaints different than accessing major theme parks, all-inclusive resorts, or popular national parks?! Are Vail and Alterra really responsible for ruining skiing? I agree with mourning the cultural change at individual resorts, but that also sounds like a universal "back in my day..." type sentiment felt across all unique or quaint experiences. If Vail/Aterra are the evil, what is your alternative plan to preserve the skiing experience??

 

[MissySki]

Can someone help me understand... Why, specifically have the multi-mountain Epic/Ikon passes ruined skiing? I have never had either and my home resorts are privately owned. The main two things everyone is complaining about are crowds and cost of associated food/services/hotels. But does everyone really think those two things would be significantly improved if Epic/Ikon passes didn't exist? Do you really think there would be less bodies on the hill? Less people willing to pay for a ski vacation? That a private resort won't still gouge you for a burger or overcharge for lessons?

Population growth, a desire to keep up with the Jones', and a general increase in recreational travel is the root of all of it. That would still be the case regardless. Are any of these complaints different than accessing major theme parks, all-inclusive resorts, or popular national parks?! Are Vail and Alterra really responsible for ruining skiing? I agree with mourning the cultural change at individual resorts, but that also sounds like a universal "back in my day..." type sentiment felt across all unique or quaint experiences. If Vail/Aterra are the evil, what is your alternative plan to preserve the skiing experience??

We are saying it because many of us have seen a direct correlation at our home mountains with the influx of Ikon passes and Epic passes.. in my case specifically Ikon. All of these people only get 5 or 7 days (depending on the pass level) at my mountain. So no I don’t think it would be as crowded without Ikon because they wouldn’t all decide they should only ski my mountain now and buy a season pass. They ski it because it is an option on their pass. This isn’t back in the day, this is the past two season being a dramatic change in unsafe crowd levels.

I don’t at all care what the hill charges for food and other incidentals. I already bought property on it. Lol I care that I have too many days where I don’t feel safe due to the huge amount of people on trails with me right now. And having been hit this season for the first time ever, resulting in a concussion. And a person I was skiing with having a boarder go over the back of his skis while skiing yesterday, and all of the close calls I witness and have to deal with. I’d gladly pay more for my season’s pass to feel a bit safer with less people on the trails again. There is a huge difference in how the crowd behaves for people who are always at the mountain and those visiting. And it’s not a good difference, but very very obvious to anyone who’s been there.

And yes it’s different than an amusement park because people’s lives and safety can literally be at risk. I personally think resorts need to start being accountable for maintaining a safe capacity of people on the mountain and when that is exceeded they should absolutely be liable for collision injuries. Skiing is inherently dangerous, but the crowding is controllable and safety should be prioritized and regulated over monetary gain.

 

[floatingyardsale]

"Back in my day" is literally 2021. We're paying more money for a worse product. The model has big advantages for the powder chasers and vacationers and big disadvantages for the locals. The problem isn't so much the crowding (I'm not in traffic, I am traffic) for me as it is the logistics. I expect some of it will improve this year -- but Ikon plus an epic snow season meant that last year was a mess.

 

[ski diva]

Can someone help me understand... Why, specifically have the multi-mountain Epic/Ikon passes ruined skiing? I have never had either and my home resorts are privately owned. The main two things everyone is complaining about are crowds and cost of associated food/services/hotels. But does everyone really think those two things would be significantly improved if Epic/Ikon passes didn't exist? Do you really think there would be less bodies on the hill? Less people willing to pay for a ski vacation? That a private resort won't still gouge you for a burger or overcharge for lessons?

Population growth, a desire to keep up with the Jones', and a general increase in recreational travel is the root of all of it. That would still be the case regardless. Are any of these complaints different than accessing major theme parks, all-inclusive resorts, or popular national parks?! Are Vail and Alterra really responsible for ruining skiing? I agree with mourning the cultural change at individual resorts, but that also sounds like a universal "back in my day..." type sentiment felt across all unique or quaint experiences. If Vail/Aterra are the evil, what is your alternative plan to preserve the skiing experience??

I KNOW there would be fewer bodies on the hill. I live near Okemo -- which is an Epic resort -- and the changes I've seen since Vail took over are profound. Setting aside the cultural issues: the price of season passes has certainly dropped, but the cost of day passes have skyrocketed. As a result, many, many more people are buying season passes. And because they have one, they feel bound to ski only at Epic (or Ikon) resorts to get their money's worth. There's no crowd control, no capacity limits. Sell the passes, pack 'em in; that's the Vail way. What's more, with day passes so high, the occasional skier, or someone who just wants to try out an Epic or Ikon resort, is pretty much priced out of the market. For example, a ticket today at Stowe is $209. Would you want to pay that? Me, neither. It's crazy.

Then there's all the cultural issues, along with the way things are managed now. But that's another (long) story. Instead, I'll direct you to Heather Hansman's excellent book, "Power Days: Ski Bums, Ski Towns, and the Future of Chasing Snow."

 

[RandomSkier]

@MissySki , @floatingyardsale, @ski diva

I really appreciate the responses. I see the complaints online all the time of Vail and Alterra, I am always just trying to compare to what the realistic alternative would look like. For smaller mountains with less prestige, it's like locals are complaining that the masses have found out about them. There are millions of skiers in America that need to ski somewhere... With more people adopting the sport every season and subject to poor snow. Don't you think it would have just been a matter of time before people started to look elsewhere from Aspen for a more affordable vacation? Ikon and Epic passes may have accelerated the process, too fast for the local infrastructure to safely accommodate, but I guess I am a pessimist when it comes to preserving the integrity of the ski experience vs. corporate greed. Even if every single hill was privately owned, it wouldn't change the demand on the infrastructure. The smaller resorts might be a bit more shielded from the crowds and corporate greed, but for how long?

 

[floatingyardsale]

No one is going to spend money to travel to the local hill. It's a great little resort, but it has no amenities, unreliable snow, and it's small. Maybe they tack it on as a day on a trip after skiing everything else, but there are just a lot of resorts here.

What I want for Snowbasin: Ikon reservations, including parking. The people skiing are lovely. The bit where Snowbasin was unprepared for people coming up, not so much.

The other thing that would help would be some way to do cheaper "try it out" tickets or lesson packages just for locals. My kid's close friend wants to ski, and he's taking lessons at the local, but to try a day at the big mountain is a $200 investment. I get that it's not a cheap sport, but that's a lot to see if you like something, and they're burning a lot of local good will. There needs to be an on-ramp for skiing.

(Also deeply unimpressed with the kid's lessons this season but I am confident that will get sorted out with a phone call.)

 

[MissySki]

@MissySki , @floatingyardsale, @ski diva

I really appreciate the responses. I see the complaints online all the time of Vail and Alterra, I am always just trying to compare to what the realistic alternative would look like. For smaller mountains with less prestige, it's like locals are complaining that the masses have found out about them. There are millions of skiers in America that need to ski somewhere... With more people adopting the sport every season and subject to poor snow. Don't you think it would have just been a matter of time before people started to look elsewhere from Aspen for a more affordable vacation? Ikon and Epic passes may have accelerated the process, too fast for the local infrastructure to safely accommodate, but I guess I am a pessimist when it comes to preserving the integrity of the ski experience vs. corporate greed. Even if every single hill was privately owned, it wouldn't change the demand on the infrastructure. The smaller resorts might be a bit more shielded from the crowds and corporate greed, but for how long?

For Ikon, some mountains have reservation requirements to control capacity. That’s what I want to see at my home mountain. Sunday River is not a small place, it’s one of the biggest in the East. And Boyne has reservations for Ikon passes at Loon and Big Sky already. I am hopeful it will come to Sunday River, the complaints of crowding and safety issues this season are getting louder and louder. The lack of snow has not helped. That’s what you do, imo, you want a cheap pass you need reservations and a fixed capacity for those passes. That’s the trade off.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.. supply and demand. Too many people means your prices are too low and should be raised to provide a more quality experience at appropriate capacity levels.

 

[contesstant]

I had a picture memory from 2 years ago come up on my phone from January 5th. I took pics of my tracks in powder. They were the only tracks. It was around 11 a.m. I’ll never enjoy that experience again thanks to the Ikon pass. On some days, I’d hazard a guess that the increase in skier traffic is 400%. It is absolutely unbelievable and also sad.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Reading the stories it seems to me that the problem is less about IKON or Epic passes and more about how individual resorts manage the user days. I feel very lucky that my home mountain requires reservations, limits user days for all but actual resort season pass holders and those sell out fast.

Not great for powder chasers, but no lift lines make me a happy camper.

I wonder where the revenue is coming from to allow for such strict limits on overcrowding?

 

[MissySki]

Reading the stories it seems to me that the problem is less about IKON or Epic passes and more about how individual resorts manage the user days. I feel very lucky that my home mountain requires reservations, limits user days for all but actual resort season pass holders and those sell out fast.

Not great for powder chasers, but no lift lines make me a happy camper.

I wonder where the revenue is coming from to allow for such strict limits on overcrowding?

Yes, but in the case of Epic most (or all??) of the mountains on the pass are owned by them. So the season pass IS an Epic pass with unlimited days. How do you manage that? That’s a tougher situation. Some of Ikon’s resorts are also in the same boat, while others are partner resorts and limited. I proposed in another thread that perhaps they could have people declare a home mountain for the season and then for other resorts you have to make reservations etc. in the same way. Or have a much higher priced tier to do so without reservations needed.

I agree though, this is the model partner resorts absolutely need to follow!

 

[Divegirl]

I apologize for the length - I have been reading this discussion with interest. I do not have either Ikon or Epic but in away they have affected my choice where to ski. I used to be able to pick up mid-week "Ski and Stay" packages at places like Sunday River, Okemo, Stowe, Snowshoe (WV). I picked these "larger" resort areas as my DH is a non-skier and they either have options for him w/in the property or are close to a nice town/village for him/us to explore. Those packages all seemed to have disappeared for non-pass holders. When I used to look into a "Ski and Stay" packages and since DH is a non-skier, I could call them up directly ask if I could only get 1 lift ticket. Sometimes I could, other times I couldn't but the reservations people would give us maybe a credit for a couple meals on the mountain or to the store, I could work a deal to cover the cost or most of the cost for the unused ticket. My 1 trip to Okemo, the staff went out of their way to make up as much of the cost as possible - we got restaurant credits and a goodie basket - hat, mug, stickers, a pin, little snacks and stuff. I know they threw it together from the mountain store but it was so nice.

Long story short - I find myself not choosing to go the resorts/mountains on Ikon/Epic because the cost for 2 or 3 days of skiing w/o a pass is getting prohibitive especially since DH doesn't ski and I tend ski alone. I just can't justify the cost. I do have a pass to my local mountain and due to a change in my personal life, I did purchase an Indy pass this year.

 

[Christy]

Here in WA 2 of the 3 ski areas within day trip distance of the Seattle-Tacoma-Everett metro area went on Ikon or Epic and the 3rd became an Ikon partner, and the effect was immediate. It turns out you cannot sell a cheap unlimited pass to an audience of 3 million people who live within 2 hours of these sites. They were so overwhelmed, and people who had been promised unlimited skiing could not even get close to the parking lot, with the result that the WA attorney general investigated Stevens, after 80+ people filed formal complaints with the AG. If you don't have a pass, lift ticket prices have tripled over pre-Epic costs--if you can even get them. So here passholders and casual skiers without a pass are both hurt.

At Crystal Mt they've been better about mitigating the crowds from Ikon. Parking reservations are required; they dropped the unlimited aspect and people are limited to 7 days at Crystal. That means if you are a Crystal skier you'll want to buy the regular season pass, which rose from $800 the year before Alterra bought it to $1949 (+10% tax) today. Here too daily lift tickets are cost prohibitive and not always available.

Generations of Seattle (and Tacoma/Everett) kids grew up learning and doing affordable day trips to our 3 nearby mountains. That's really not possible anymore.

Your point about how outdoor recreation is booming in general is well taken, but the Ikon/Alterra changes took the issues to the next level.

 

[KayOss]

One of the things I have seen/heard in the lift line and in the lodge is "sharing" of local and IKON passes. Everyone is wearing helmets and goggles and 99% of the time the pass is in a pocket so how is the lift operator suppose to monitor who is using the pass? There are some who say, well at this price I can share the cost ... and others (me) who think this is contributing to the over crowding of the resort (parking!) and reduction of respect for the terrain, others, etc. The passes are not cheap and I have to budget to buy ours each year!

 

[newbieM]

The mass passes try to sell you on the fact that you are getting more, but are you really? More days/mountains, but a lesser-quality experience, no doubt. The interesting thing I've noticed at my home hill is the decline in quality grooming and opening terrain as early as possible. Why would they? They have no incentive to prior to the Christmas rush. The majority of skiers prior to that are season passholders. After than, they rake in the big bucks with IKON visits. Then they open everything and woo the IKON visitors. Makes the locals feel pretty under appreciated. They put in high-speed chairs, which reduce lines but increase the number of skiers on the hill which = dangerous. "But hey, look at the shiny new lifts we put in for you!" Smoke sufficiently blown.

I wish Beaver Mountain was closer. I'd buy a pass there and ski there a lot. I want to support the smaller resorts much like I did a lot of shopping this holiday season at little shops downtown. (And a book by a certain author!)

In case folks can't tell, I LOATHE the IKON pass as do most of us who are Snowbasin skiers. Some have been skiing there for decades.

Beaver mountain is on my wishlist this year to trek out there. I also love powmow but wonder what will happen now that it got sold.

Skiing is such a luxury. Just the gear such as pants, jacket, gloves, helmet, goggles make it out of reach and that is before any of the extras. I only learned in my 40s and an immigrant so this was not in my families wheelhouse. But the lack of accessibility is another story for another time.

 

[marzNC]

One of the things I have seen/heard in the lift line and in the lodge is "sharing" of local and IKON passes. Everyone is wearing helmets and goggles and 99% of the time the pass is in a pocket so how is the lift operator suppose to monitor who is using the pass? There are some who say, well at this price I can share the cost ... and others (me) who think this is contributing to the over crowding of the resort (parking!) and reduction of respect for the terrain, others, etc. The passes are not cheap and I have to budget to buy ours each year!

What region do you ski in the most?

My favorite mountain out west is Alta in Utah. They have had RFID since 2008. Solitude installed RFID at about the same time. Both were/are very popular were locals. I would guess that in the early years, a few people tried to use someone else's pass. Since that's illegal, after seeing a few people getting pulled out of line to be checked more carefully by the liftie who was seeing the face of the card holder for a season pass, probably fewer locals would've been trying that tactic. I've seen people being politely asked to raise their goggles in recent years. The lifties with the tablet take their job seriously.

I've read more than one story from New England about people trying to use someone else's pass in the past decade. Used to happen regularly with paper tickets. I remember being surprised that Loon decided to back to metal wickets and sticky tickets after using plastic holders for a bit. I was there in 2016 or 2017. There was a case of a young man who used his brother's season pass at Killington. The concept of "non-transferable" is clearly stated on the back of the pass. He got caught and Killington chose to make an example of him. I don't know if they prosecuted him, but pretty sure the brother lost the use of the pass for at least that season.

 

[MissySki]

One of the things I have seen/heard in the lift line and in the lodge is "sharing" of local and IKON passes. Everyone is wearing helmets and goggles and 99% of the time the pass is in a pocket so how is the lift operator suppose to monitor who is using the pass? There are some who say, well at this price I can share the cost ... and others (me) who think this is contributing to the over crowding of the resort (parking!) and reduction of respect for the terrain, others, etc. The passes are not cheap and I have to budget to buy ours each year!

At my mountain they have been very visibly looking at people as they come through gates and their pass shows their picture on an ipad they’re holding. I’m sure this doesn’t catch any but the most egregious of perpetrators, but there are ramifications when people are caught using someone else’s pass.

 

[horsepowered]

At my mountain they have been very visibly looking at people as they come through gates and their pass shows their picture on an ipad they’re holding. I’m sure this doesn’t catch any but the most egregious of perpetrators, but there are ramifications when people are caught using someone else’s pass.

At my home mountain, they seem to be looking closely at their RFID reader (for the photo) and checking names. I'm not sure how me responding "Yep" to "horsepowered?" is helping prevent fraud, but it's not like it's slowing down the lines or anything.

My favorite is hearing them mispronounce names. The lady in front of me was asked "Deb - BORE - ah?" this weekend, which had me cracking up. The lifty's name was, ironically, Aaron. Way to go, ay-ay-ron! (He was probably too young to have understood the reference, so I only said that in my head).

 

[MissySki]

At my home mountain, they seem to be looking closely at their RFID reader (for the photo) and checking names. I'm not sure how me responding "Yep" to "horsepowered?" is helping prevent fraud, but it's not like it's slowing down the lines or anything.

My favorite is hearing them mispronounce names. The lady in front of me was asked "Deb - BORE - ah?" this weekend, which had me cracking up. The lifty's name was, ironically, Aaron. Way to go, ay-ay-ron! (He was probably too young to have understood the reference, so I only said that in my head).

A friend of mine said she got asked last week if the picture on the ipad was her after going through an rfid reader.. it wasn’t. Scanned her several times and it wasn’t her coming up. She had to go talk to guest services about the glitch. Weird.. but they did somehow pick out the issue which surprised me.