Ikon/Epic and the effect on skiing article

[MissySki]

Snowbasin is owned by the Holding family/Sinclair Oil. They also own several hotel properties (Grand America and Little America in SLC, others in San Diego.) The GM knows full well how the locals feel. I ski with people who have skied this mountain for 50+ years, and grew up skiing here. Things really began to go the wrong direction when Earl Holding died 10-ish years ago. It's become just another money grab which is how our culture, particularly corporate culture, has been trending for the past 20+ years.

As far as pass prices, they actually have gone up about $500 in the past 4 years for the premier pass. Anyone who doesn't know the mountain and what IKON has done to it really don't understand.

The biggest slap in the face is that as Snowbasin passholders, we get ZERO IKON benefits. We are getting a vastly degraded product for a higher cost.

They don’t offer the Ikon as a higher tier add on to your season pass? A lot of partner resorts do, including Sunday River. It makes the base pass like $300 or something silly cheap that just makes sense if you will visit an Ikon resort on a trip that season. Though the annoying thing is they will not allow you to upgrade to the full at all, you have to get that separately at full price if you need it based on where you are traveling. Though I’d guess that also helps keep the number of people with full passes down such that the resorts who require it gain some number controls for being exclusive to that tier of pass.

 

[contesstant]

They don’t offer the Ikon as a higher tier add on to your season pass? A lot of partner resorts do, including Sunday River. It makes the base pass like $300 or something silly cheap that just makes sense if you will visit an Ikon resort on a trip that season. Though the annoying thing is they will not allow you to upgrade to the full at all, you have to get that separately at full price if you need it based on where you are traveling. Though I’d guess that also helps keep the number of people with full passes down such that the resorts who require it gain some number controls for being exclusive to that tier of pass.

Yes, I believe for $400 which to me isn't much of a deal especially considering the IKON base resorts aren't high on my list. It's like feeding us scraps. I prefer what the Mountain Collective does, which is gives us 50% off day tickets at partner resorts. We don't get to other resorts that often, though, thanks to someone being an instructor in the house. Our weekends are mostly tied up (kind of ironic.)

 

[AltaEgo]

The future of the sport concerns me. The little “feeder” hills in PA, MI, WI, MN, etc. used to offer great deals to get people to learn to ski and board. To take a kiddo out to learn to ski/board used to be attainable at the feeder areas. The lesson prices have become totally outrageous. Gone are the days of groups coming out to learn to ski. Gone are the bus trips, Boy Scouts, church groups and school groups. Granted, even the most successful programs Only had 20-25% of the people return for another lesson that season. But more People were exposed to it, and open to it than will be now. Perhaps with global warming it is pointless to try to keep the feeder ski areas going. But it is a sad situation to see how few people are learning to ski/board since the duopoly has taken over so many feeder areas. There were times before the duopoly that little Ski Roundtop used to teach 1000 lessons on a Saturday. Even with a 20% retention rate, that’s 200 new skiers/boarders just in one day at one area. Lack of new skiers may kill snowsports completely.

 

[Cpnwgsp]

Yeah... I learned to ski at a ~500ft bump in central CT and went weekly through a school program my friend's dad had access to and it was insanely cheap. That place - Powder Ridge in CT - is still open, and it's still pretty cheap! https://powderridgepark.connectintouch.com/lift-passes

I wonder if there are fewer places like this these days, or if people who are into skiing enough to post on a ski forum just never go to places like that anymore, or... ? I mean, when you look at the Powder Ridge trail map, it doesn't feel that crazy that a day a Vail costs 5x as much via a window ticket. There's no comparison.

I'm not a huge megapass fan, but I guess I also don't think that skiing at a place that's a top-tier resort destination should necessarily be super cheap. Skiing being accessible doesn't mean a week at Vail or Park City or Heavenly has to be accessible (though it would be nice if it was). It does mean that smaller feeder / community run / etc hills still have to exist and be viable business models.

I learned to ski at a neighborhood hill too - Chester Bowl in Duluth MN. It is still in operation. I’m sure it’s changed, but iI think it is still affordable and used by local families.

 

[Posse Mama]

I am an Indy pass holder living in southeastern PA. I can only make one turn at a time and love the individual charm of the smaller resorts. I do have a pass at my local hill, Bear Creek where I volunteer as a Mtn Host with NPS.

 

[elemmac]

Depending on where you live, there are still tons of under appreciated, affordable resorts to learn how to ski. I haven’t taken a look at lesson prices for a long time, but this thread piqued my interest. Looking at the ski area I grew up on (Pats Peak)…they still offer great after school lift/lesson/rental programs for $335 (early sign up rate). Offer affordable deals for parents with kids in programs. Learn to ski adult packages…4 lessons, and at the completion of the 4th you can get a season pass and pair skis ($649).

I just spent a day at Black Mountain of Maine…and they offer very affordable lessons (an hour for $65), along with various packages to keep people coming back.

I recently saw this blog post from Storm Skiing. There are 505 active ski areas in the US….under 100 of them are on Epic or Ikon. Probably half of the remaining are little hills that most avid skiers wouldn’t give a second thought to. But does a beginner really need 1000+ feet of vertical to learn on…let alone 2000+ that some Ikon/Epic mountains offer.

I understand the complaint that they’ve made many little hills that attract city crowds unaffordable to learn at…it’s their business model. Get small local hills to be on the Epic or Ikon pass, and attract those people to big western resort because they can now ski for “free”. I understand the complaint, but I don’t think that all means that skiing is doomed. There are little podunk ski areas that stay afloat from their local communities. I truly hope these little areas continue to be affordable, stay afloat, and continue to bring new skiers into the sport at an affordable price.

 

[geargrrl]

little hills that most avid skiers wouldn’t give a second thought to.

I am reading this thread thinking how nice it is for me that my spouse and I really enjoy little non-resorty areas. We did Indy pass 2 years in a row and that was great for what we like to do. Thank goodness this El Nino year we decided not to invest lol.

I do suppose if we were doing a ski vaca to some of the resorts (Utah for example) getting an IKON makes sense but until then I'll stick with how we've been doing it.

 

[elemmac]

little hills that most avid skiers wouldn’t give a second thought to.

I am reading this thread thinking how nice it is for me that my spouse and I really enjoy little non-resorty areas. We did Indy pass 2 years in a row and that was great for what we like to do. Thank goodness this El Nino year we decided not to invest lol.

I do suppose if we were doing a ski vaca to some of the resorts (Utah for example) getting an IKON makes sense but until then I'll stick with how we've been doing it.

My husband and I are the same…both grew up skiing little hills, so very much understand the charm in them. We purchased Indy passes this year after planning a trip to Japan and realizing a handful of areas we were already planning on going to were added to the Indy pass. I love that having the pass pushes us to escape the crowds of our regular home mountain from time to time.

 

[geargrrl]

....although we did have a good laugh at Lost Trail where there is one old riblet double chair that is a 17 minute ride lol

 

[elemmac]

....although we did have a good laugh at Lost Trail where there is one old riblet double chair that is a 17 minute ride lol

Just getting more for your money!

 

[marzNC]

The little “feeder” hills in PA, MI, WI, MN, etc. used to offer great deals to get people to learn to ski and board.

I've been paying attention to mountains that aren't destination resorts in multiple regions in recent years. Started when I became curious about non-profit ski areas. I'm not sure that PA is an indication of what's happening in other states. Checking websites, I've found assorted deals for beginners and children in the midwest and at smaller hills in NY and New England. Clearly the purchase of quite a few mountains in PA, first by Peak and then by Vail Resorts has completely shifted the situation in the mid-Atlantic. Plus Camelback and Blue are now part of Ikon. The situation in the NC and VA mountains hasn't changed that much in recent years.

The pandemic changed the nature of group lessons in assorted ways for 2-3 seasons. Certainly meant that group ski trips by church groups, Boy Scouts, or Girl Scouts were curtailed. The staff shortages for ski schools started before 2019, especially for people willing to teach beginners and young children most of the time. The increasing sales of Epic passes (2008) followed by the MCP (2012) and Ikon (2018) are part of the evolution of the ski industry. As the growth of the Indy Pass since 2020 has shown, there are quite a few independent mountains in all regions that are still in business.

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Yeah... I learned to ski at a ~500ft bump in central CT and went weekly through a school program my friend's dad had access to and it was insanely cheap. That place - Powder Ridge in CT - is still open, and it's still pretty cheap! https://powderridgepark.connectintouch.com/lift-passes

I wonder if there are fewer places like this these days, or if people who are into skiing enough to post on a ski forum just never go to places like that anymore, or... ? I mean, when you look at the Powder Ridge trail map, it doesn't feel that crazy that a day a Vail costs 5x as much via a window ticket. There's no comparison.

I'm not a huge megapass fan, but I guess I also don't think that skiing at a place that's a top-tier resort destination should necessarily be super cheap. Skiing being accessible doesn't mean a week at Vail or Park City or Heavenly has to be accessible (though it would be nice if it was). It does mean that smaller feeder / community run / etc hills still have to exist and be viable business models.

Feel free to come visit if you want to revisit Powder ridge or Mount Southington. We live 15 min from both. 45 degrees warm today but they are both open!

 

[MissySki]

I learned how to ski 16 years ago at Wachusett Mountain in Princeton, MA. At the time they had a $99 lower mountain lift ticket/ski rental/ski lesson package that I purchased. I just looked now and they still have this package, for 1 day it is now $139 and 3 days of the same is $239.. pretty darn good after 16 years I think. Vastly cheaper than many other places where all you’ll get is a lift ticket for this price, if you’re lucky. I always recommend Wachusett if someone local to me asks where they should go to learn to ski.

Sunday River, which is far from a feeder mountain, has the same sort of package for $175 (weekdays) and $185 (holiday and weekends). Not terrible either.

I think the real issue comes in once a person does their intro lesson and then are just expected to start paying full price for everything right after that. Big jump in price to go from these intro packages to having to buy a lift ticket, rent gear, and take further lessons if they choose to. Suddenly a day on snow ramps up to way more expensive.

 

[Posse Mama]

....although we did have a good laugh at Lost Trail where there is one old riblet double chair that is a 17 minute ride lol

That is taking the scenic route.

 

[MissySki]

little hills that most avid skiers wouldn’t give a second thought to.

I am reading this thread thinking how nice it is for me that my spouse and I really enjoy little non-resorty areas. We did Indy pass 2 years in a row and that was great for what we like to do. Thank goodness this El Nino year we decided not to invest lol.

I do suppose if we were doing a ski vaca to some of the resorts (Utah for example) getting an IKON makes sense but until then I'll stick with how we've been doing it.

For me, whether there is good snow or almost no snow, I’m still going skiing the same amount as I always do. So I don’t really see passes as an option, I buy them in the spring for the next season and whatever comes comes. However, I very much subscribe to the notion of good snow and good for your snow.. over the last week I skied in the rain, I skied in spring slush, I skied in the snow, I skied in untracked powder, I skied on ice, I skied groomers, and I skied bumps. I’ve got my ski legs for sure, and had lots of fabulous work on balance and as always working on my turns in general in all sorts of different challenges. Someday, in the very distant future haha, I’d love to become an expert skier. And since my definition of expert is someone who can ski any trail in any condition in a controlled, smooth, and gracefully manner that makes it look good and easy even when it’s NOT.. I know I can’t get there without skiing in the “good for you” snow conditions as well as the good stuff. And I imagine I need lots and lots of extra time in the bad hard stuff than the really good stuff to fulfill that goal someday.

The only condition I truly dislike is the crowds of people component. Everything else I just see as an opportunity to learn and get better at whatever challenge is presented. Now when I travel on vacation, I certainly do prefer the good stuff.. especially since I normally ski in the East so most of it isn’t that. But when we plan trips a year in advance, you just kind of have to roll with that too and ski whatever you get. It helps that most of my trips West are with Divas so at least the social component is great even if the snow doesn’t always deliver as hoped.

 

[diymom]

I learned how to ski 16 years ago at Wachusett Mountain in Princeton, MA. At the time they had a $99 lower mountain lift ticket/ski rental/ski lesson package that I purchased. I just looked now and they still have this package, for 1 day it is now $139 and 3 days of the same is $239.. pretty darn good after 16 years I think. Vastly cheaper than many other places where all you’ll get is a lift ticket for this price, if you’re lucky. I always recommend Wachusett if someone local to me asks where they should go to learn to ski.

Sunday River, which is far from a feeder mountain, has the same sort of package for $175 (weekdays) and $185 (holiday and weekends). Not terrible either.

I think the real issue comes in once a person does their intro lesson and then are just expected to start paying full price for everything right after that. Big jump in price to go from these intro packages to having to buy a lift ticket, rent gear, and take further lessons if they choose to. Suddenly a day on snow ramps up to way more expensive.

Wachusett does have an in between product, the "return to learn" package. Basically the same as the beginner options including the 3 days which do not need to be consecutive, but full mountain lift ticket at only $10 more. They are only single session tickets, but the lessons are only 1.5 hours so that still leaves a couple of hours for free skiing afterwards. Seems like a good option for someone who only gets out a few times a year.

 

[MissySki]

Wachusett does have an in between product, the "return to learn" package. Basically the same as the beginner options including the 3 days which do not need to be consecutive, but full mountain lift ticket at only $10 more. They are only single session tickets, but the lessons are only 1.5 hours so that still leaves a couple of hours for free skiing afterwards. Seems like a good option for someone who only gets out a few times a year.

That's great as an additional offering!

I haven't checked other places in MA, but I bet they have some good deals at places like Blue Hill, Nashoba, Ward Hill, etc. too. Along with Yawgoo in RI.

 

[Christy]

There are no feeder hills for the 6 million people in western WA* and the affordable beginner deals are gone. I learned at Snoqualmie around 2006 and they had a $99 3-lesson package that included everything. Now it will be $120 for one 2 hour lesson, $40 extra for the lift ticket, $60 extra for rentals. So $220 for 1 two hour beginner lesson. The closest mom and pop inexpensive ski areas would require a weekend out of town which of course defeats the purpose of keeping costs down. I don't know if this had anything to do with the fact that Stevens to the north went on Epic and Crystal to the south went on Ikon. But the end result is that affordable skiing for the 3 million people in the Seattle-Tacoma-Everett metro area is a thing of the past.

*People who live in Port Angeles, on the Olympic Peninsula, can ski at the little non-profit Hurricane Ridge ski area, which has 2 rope tows and 1 Poma inside the national park. When they have snow, that is. But that's really far from anything else. It's also subject to not opening as the national park isn't like the state DOT in terms of keeping the road open.

 

[floatingyardsale]

Snowbasin is owned by the Holding family/Sinclair Oil. They also own several hotel properties (Grand America and Little America in SLC, others in San Diego.) The GM knows full well how the locals feel. I ski with people who have skied this mountain for 50+ years, and grew up skiing here. Things really began to go the wrong direction when Earl Holding died 10-ish years ago. It's become just another money grab which is how our culture, particularly corporate culture, has been trending for the past 20+ years.

As far as pass prices, they actually have gone up about $500 in the past 4 years for the premier pass. Anyone who doesn't know the mountain and what IKON has done to it really don't understand.

The biggest slap in the face is that as Snowbasin passholders, we get ZERO IKON benefits. We are getting a vastly degraded product for a higher cost.

I started to ski in 2018. The changes at Snowbasin between then and now are crazy. In 2018, a midweek pass was under $500 and I could get parking on the weekends. Kids under six were free.
By 2022-2023, free only for 4 and under (bc we have to be like Ikon!) Impossible to take the kids for a half day afternoon on weekends because of the parking and crowds. I think what a lot of us locals are reacting to is the speed of the change. If IKON required reservations it would be one thing, but they don't, so we wind up as SLC overflow on canyon closure days. My kids adore skiing but if we'd been thinking of starting this year instead of 2020, we probably wouldn't have learned to ski at all, and it's a shame.

It's also that Snowbasin is really a bad mountain for beginners due to the funnel into the one green route down. It's not bad if you can ski blues and know the mountain well enough to skirt those runs, but when there's low coverage? It's basically practice in emergency stops and dodging others.

I get that I'm not making them money when I ski 50 times a season and only spring for cheesy fries now and then but it's just a fast change.

 

[sbf2023]

Good point!

That makes sense.