How to stop crouching while skiing?

[EffortlessSkiing]

Ah yeah I relate to the visual learning thing actually - I've been told before that I ski better while following closely behind someone and trying to copy them, than by skiing on my own while trying to think of instructions for what to do with my body, haha. I need some sort of combination of both. In lessons when shown good technique I tend to ask "well but so what am I doing then?" so I can see the good technique/bad technique and my brain can begin to build a bridge to get from one to the other!

Ah yes, I can definitely see that my hip movement is pretty different on one side than the other side. I seem to have no issues abducting my left leg/hip, but my right leg/hip remains stubbornly stiff and doesn't want to move out from my body at all, at least not without significant rotation. I know that I don't have any flexibility issues but probably have strength/movement issues. (Especially as my physio keeps telling me that recently my glutes are almost worthless in the amount of work they're actually doing, which is not much )

Looks like my upper body movement on that side is stiffer as well. I'll try the shoulder rotation that @EffortlessSkiing is talking about to see if I can loosen up that side more - @EffortlessSkiing , would you say that my shoulders are moving/rotating better to one side than the other, looking at the recent videos? Still trying to understand what I should be doing and what I'm currently doing right/wrong.

Yes, I see that your shoulders are rotating better to one side than the other side. You need to consciously concentrate on shoulder rotation. Envy that you can ski now!

 

[fgor]

Yes, I see that your shoulders are rotating better to one side than the other side. You need to consciously concentrate on shoulder rotation. Envy that you can ski now!

I only have about two more weeks of skiing and then we're done until next June, it'll be my turn to be envious of everyone else!!

 

[marzNC]

(also, I love that everyone is suddenly talking about skiing lately!! All this ski chat will keep me going over the NZ summer, which is just about to get underway )

We appreciated your posts during the NZ winter!

 

[marzNC]

Ah yeah I relate to the visual learning thing actually - I've been told before that I ski better while following closely behind someone and trying to copy them, than by skiing on my own while trying to think of instructions for what to do with my body, haha. I need some sort of combination of both. In lessons when shown good technique I tend to ask "well but so what am I doing then?" so I can see the good technique/bad technique and my brain can begin to build a bridge to get from one to the other!

I have to feel a difference between a verbal or written description makes sense. What has happened over recent years is that I'm more sensitive to more parts of my body as I managed to ingrain more fundamentals.

I did a multi-week lesson program at my home hill a couple seasons. It was for adults who were at least low advanced skiers. A few had been skiing for decades and had pretty ingrained old habits. During one lesson, the instructor asked the group what our feet were doing. The students all just looked at each other. Spent the next run trying to feel feet. After he managed to get a few people to say something as a guess, he told us what he was thinking about. Still didn't make full sense, but in the next few seasons I started to be able to actually feel different parts of my feet as I was making turns.

For quite a few years I was only able to mimic an instructor when following closely. Following tracks didn't worth at all. Even now, I tend to mimic when the instructor makes turns even when I'm not right behind. Definitely more useful for trying to develop good rhythm.

 

[Jilly]

@fgor, love your second set of video's. What I'm seeing still is a stiffness to your skiing. Relax. The other thing is let the skis do the work. To me you're rushing the turn. Let the ski turn it's natural radius.

So when you steer the skis to the fall line, tip the skis to engage the edge, and ride the ski, don't force it.

 

[marzNC]

I have to feel a difference between a verbal or written description makes sense. What has happened over recent years is that I'm more sensitive to more parts of my body as I managed to ingrain more fundamentals.

Auto-correct is not helping . . . what I meant is that "I have to feel a difference before a verbal or written description makes sense."

 

[Skier31]

Yes, I see that your shoulders are rotating better to one side than the other side. You need to consciously concentrate on shoulder rotation. Envy that you can ski now!

I disagree with consciously rotating the shoulders.

Turning and tipping comes from the legs. Counter comes from turning/tipping the legs.

 

[Bookworm]

(also, I love that everyone is suddenly talking about skiing lately!! All this ski chat will keep me going over the NZ summer, which is just about to get underway )

You need to make it to the States to come ski with us out West - maybe Taos?!

 

[westcoast21]

@snoWYmonkey & @liquidfeet -- thank you for helping me see new things; I have nowhere near the experience coaching/instructing that you ladies do. Always trying to learn more!

So, please do correct me if I'm off base here, but I couldn't resist the stick people:

I always like to think how I can align my ankle/hip/knee joints to be the best shock-absorbing spring, without going beyond their stable range of motion -- we all have physical limits on how far each "hinge" can bend, so have to work with that.

How can B1 balance?
1. Our "backseat" skier with locked ankles
2. Our skier again, with ankles relaxed at max flex (no change in hip angle)
3. Our skier (blue) with a much more upright posture / less flex, but still balanced, overlaid on the green posture in #2. Moving between these positions is nice and springy, knees don't bend past 90 degrees (easier on quads), shins get driven into the boots
4. Shins are driven fully into the boots (green), so any more shock-absorbing has to come from hips and chest driving forward (yellow), causing further knee bend
(A3). Drop a little further to the extreme end of our range of motion, and we're the balanced skier in A3.
5. (Ouch) The often-forgotten 4th hinge in alignment -- our pelvic tilt, which will affect how upright our torso is, and how "closed" and restricted our hip joints are (with lordosis/arching worsening that) . It's much harder to initiate rotary motion or even apply edging pressure with "closed" hips, and can lead to lower back soreness.
View attachment 15443
I miss snow!

the stick people and explanations are so helpful to me. thank you for this!

 

[EffortlessSkiing]

I disagree with consciously rotating the shoulders.

Turning and tipping comes from the legs. Counter comes from turning/tipping the legs.

This is a common mistake. Our vision gives us a misleading impression that skiers rotate legs and keep the upper body motionless. But this movement is biomechanically impossible. In reality, the skis are locked in snow, not allowing us to rotate the legs actively. In contrast, the torso is free to move. We rotate it in the direction opposite to that in which the skis go. Because the torso and the skis rotate in the opposite directions, the torso remains motionless relative to external objects (the slope line, trees, external observers).

 

[EffortlessSkiing]

the stick people and explanations are so helpful to me. thank you for this!

@snoWYmonkey & @liquidfeet -- thank you for helping me see new things; I have nowhere near the experience coaching/instructing that you ladies do. Always trying to learn more!

So, please do correct me if I'm off base here, but I couldn't resist the stick people:

I always like to think how I can align my ankle/hip/knee joints to be the best shock-absorbing spring, without going beyond their stable range of motion -- we all have physical limits on how far each "hinge" can bend, so have to work with that.

How can B1 balance?
1. Our "backseat" skier with locked ankles
2. Our skier again, with ankles relaxed at max flex (no change in hip angle)
3. Our skier (blue) with a much more upright posture / less flex, but still balanced, overlaid on the green posture in #2. Moving between these positions is nice and springy, knees don't bend past 90 degrees (easier on quads), shins get driven into the boots
4. Shins are driven fully into the boots (green), so any more shock-absorbing has to come from hips and chest driving forward (yellow), causing further knee bend
(A3). Drop a little further to the extreme end of our range of motion, and we're the balanced skier in A3.
5. (Ouch) The often-forgotten 4th hinge in alignment -- our pelvic tilt, which will affect how upright our torso is, and how "closed" and restricted our hip joints are (with lordosis/arching worsening that) . It's much harder to initiate rotary motion or even apply edging pressure with "closed" hips, and can lead to lower back soreness.
View attachment 15443
I miss snow!

This sagittal stick figure consideration is helpful but we need to remember that this is only a small part of the entire story. The posture is changing constantly: the legs flex and extend, the pressure of the shins on the boots is changing, the center of mass moves for and aft, and the upper and lower body rotate with respect to each other. Still, the entire movement is very simple, if we know what to do.

 

[Jilly]

You definitely do not want to rotate the shoulders. You are pointing and steering the skis in the direction of travel. If you follow the skis with the upper body, then you square to the skis and will have an issue trying to turn. If you counter rotate the upper body starting with the hips, then things become much easier.

Turning begins with the feet by steering the skis to the fall line. Tipping the skis adds the edges to the equation. The side cut of the skis adds to the direction of travel. Forces then build up and need to be harnessed.

I don't the eloquent way of saying things that @liquidfeet has!!

 

[EffortlessSkiing]

You definitely do not want to rotate the shoulders. You are pointing and steering the skis in the direction of travel. If you follow the skis with the upper body, then you square to the skis and will have an issue trying to turn. If you counter rotate the upper body starting with the hips, then things become much easier.

Turning begins with the feet by steering the skis to the fall line. Tipping the skis adds the edges to the equation. The side cut of the skis adds to the direction of travel. Forces then build up and need to be harnessed.

I don't the eloquent way of saying things that @liquidfeet has!!

Jilly, I know, this is how all ski instructors are taught our days. But this is incorrect. Please, realize that when we "follow the skis with the upper body", we DO NOT rotate the shoulders. In this case, the upper body is in the neutral position (aligned with the lower body) and the core muscles are relaxed. The only way to prevent following the skis with the upper body is rotating the shoulders in the opposite direction. There is a "counter-rotation" notion but most people do not understand what it is and how it is performed. Stop thinking in terms of what you see (external observation). Start thinking in terms of relative motion of the upper and lower body with respect to each other because our muscles do not act with respect to external coordinates. They cause rotations of the body parts with respect to each other.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

This is a common mistake. Our vision gives us a misleading impression that skiers rotate legs and keep the upper body motionless. But this movement is biomechanically impossible. In reality, the skis are locked in snow, not allowing us to rotate the legs actively. In contrast, the torso is free to move. We rotate it in the direction opposite to that in which the skis go. Because the torso and the skis rotate in the opposite directions, the torso remains motionless relative to external objects (the slope line, trees, external observers). The biomechanics of skiing is presented in a simple way in the book Effortless Skiing (Amazon).

Hmm... clarification please. Are you talking purely carved turns?

 

[contesstant]

FWIW my husband says the size of the turn dictates how much the shoulders stay square to the hill vs. follows the skis. It's not so set in stone as to what you should do. What you DON'T want to do it throw the hip and shoulder around (I have a tendency to do this on my left hand turns--it's an alignment issue in my boots.) In general, having a student focus on keeping the shoulders fairly square to the fall line could be considered "exaggerating" the movement for learning purposes. Kind of like when I took gazillions of hours of horseback riding lessons as a kid, we would JAM our heels down so that when we relaxed more, they would hang there in a relaxed yet down position.

One of my personal favorite drills to help with rotation from the femurs is short-radius turns. If you start turning your shoulders, short radius are nearly impossible to do.

 

[EffortlessSkiing]

Hmm... clarification please. Are you talking purely carved turns?

This is true for all kinds of turns. This is a part of the basic biomechanical structure of downhill skiing. Different styles and manners emerge due to small modifications in this basic biomechanical structure.

 

[Skier31]

This is a common mistake. Our vision gives us a misleading impression that skiers rotate legs and keep the upper body motionless. But this movement is biomechanically impossible. In reality, the skis are locked in snow, not allowing us to rotate the legs actively. In contrast, the torso is free to move. We rotate it in the direction opposite to that in which the skis go. Because the torso and the skis rotate in the opposite directions, the torso remains motionless relative to external objects (the slope line, trees, external observers).

It is not a mistake. There are different ways of turning. When you flatten the skis, they slide on the snow and you can turn your legs.

 

[newboots]

@EffortlessSkiing - I believe @Jilly specifically mentioned counter rotation in the post you criticized, specifically:

“If you counter rotate the upper body starting with the hips, then things become much easier.”

This is true for all kinds of turns. This is a part of the basic biomechanical structure of downhill skiing. Different styles and manners emerge due to small modifications in this basic biomechanical structure.

You continually criticize the opinions of skiers who have taught (at least) hundreds of other skiers under the auspices of PSIA and CSIA, over the course of many years. These women are prominent on this forum because they are highly skilled and trustworthy, and they are part of a community here.

I would suggest that you might have a better reception here if you wanted to learn about us and join this community, rather than popping in to promote your own ideas and dismiss those of others.

 

[MissySki]

In general, having a student focus on keeping the shoulders fairly square to the fall line could be considered "exaggerating" the movement for learning purposes. Kind of like when I took gazillions of hours of horseback riding lessons as a kid, we would JAM our heels down so that when we relaxed more, they would hang there in a relaxed yet down position.

I think this is such an important note! I'm someone who takes direction really literally, and it took me a long time to realize I didn't need to so very strictly stick to certain movements.. and that it can be detrimental to other things to do so. It's amazing the different things you learn and revelations had as you work through the same parts of skiing but at different points along the way in your skiing progression.

 

[EffortlessSkiing]

This is a common mistake. Our vision gives us a misleading impression that skiers rotate legs and keep the upper body motionless. But this movement is biomechanically impossible. In reality, the skis are locked in snow, not allowing us to rotate the legs actively. In contrast, the torso is free to move. We rotate it in the direction opposite to that in which the skis go. Because the torso and the skis rotate in the opposite directions, the torso remains motionless relative to external objects (the slope line, trees, external observers).

It is not a mistake. There are different ways of turning. When you flatten the skis, they slide on the snow and you can turn your legs.

We flatten the skis during transitions between the arcs when the skis are carved. At this phase, the upper and lower body are aligned with each other. We rotate the shoulders while we go along the arc. We do it to generate certain forces within the body that we then use to transit to the next arc. By using these forces within the body, we do not need to use leg muscles for transitions. Unskillful skiers who use leg muscles get pain in the quads very quickly. Pain in the quads is a sign of wrong, effortful skiing technique. I know it is hard to understand without knowing the true biomechanics of skiing. It is impossible to figure out skiing biomechanics from visual observations. Visual observations are misleading. I was able to discover skiing biomechanics by using advanced knowledge in the field of human movement control and biomechanics. Sometimes science is fruitful.