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How to stop crouching while skiing?

EffortlessSkiing

Certified Ski Diva
I think this is such an important note! I'm someone who takes direction really literally, and it took me a long time to realize I didn't need to so very strictly stick to certain movements.. and that it can be detrimental to other things to do so. It's amazing the different things you learn and revelations had as you work through the same parts of skiing but at different points along the way in your skiing progression.
The two-step technique makes skiing simple. We need to focus on two things only, and consequtively, on the first step and then the second step. Then all features usually mentioned by instructors (facing downhill, edging, loading the outer ski.) emerge naturally, without thinking about them.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
We flatten the skis during transitions between the arcs when the skis are carved. At this phase, the upper and lower body are aligned with each other. We rotate the shoulders while we go along the arc. We do it to generate certain forces within the body that we then use to transit to the next arc. By using these forces within the body, we do not need to use leg muscles for transitions. Unskillful skiers who use leg muscles get pain in the quads very quickly. Pain in the quads is a sign of wrong, effortful skiing technique. I know it is hard to understand without knowing the true biomechanics of skiing. It is impossible to figure out skiing biomechanics from visual observations. Visual observations are misleading. I was able to discover skiing biomechanics by using advanced knowledge in the field of human movement control and biomechanics. Sometimes science is fruitful.
With all respect, you know nothing of my background or experience. There are many ways to turn. Intent dictates technique. Your way is a way, not the way.
 

shadoj

Angel Diva
Visual observations are misleading. I was able to discover skiing biomechanics by using advanced knowledge in the field of human movement control and biomechanics.

I think that's where folks are talking past each other -- @EffortlessSkiing has technically correct observations for when the frame of reference is "spinal neutral". The additive effect of the range of motion -- from our hips, up through pelvis, all the way through the neck -- is what allows us to effectively have our skis pointed perpendicular to our shoulders. Like wringing out a washcloth, the bottom (hips/pelvis) must move in the opposite rotational direction as the shoulders. The counter-rotational muscle engagement is often subtle enough that you might not even notice. This is also why core strength is arguably more important than leg strength!

Many skiers will "get it" faster when using the familiar visual frame of reference, where they are paying attention to where their shoulders are relative to the fall line. That being said, truly being able to feel the snow and how your body muscles are working for/against your intended movement is lifelong learning process, and we can all get better at it.

I have some hip/pelvis issues, so the more I pay attention to my body, the better I ski. I look forward to more technical tips and discussions from everyone here :smile:
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
That being said, truly being able to feel the snow and how your body muscles are working for/against your intended movement is lifelong learning process, and we can all get better at it.

:smile:
Totally agree with this. That is what I was also saying above with regard to learning different things as you progress, even when working on the same skills. I can definitely feel more now than ever before when working on certain things, and I imagine/hope that will continue in the future. I've been thinking about that in some classes recently, like why did I never actually feel that to understand it before???
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The two-step technique makes skiing simple. We need to focus on two things only, and consequtively, on the first step and then the second step. Then all features usually mentioned by instructors (facing downhill, edging, loading the outer ski.) emerge naturally, without thinking about them.
I'm shocked at the level of your certainty. You speak as if you KNOW everything.
 
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snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Steps? Skiing is about sliding not stepping. Confused.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
....Unskillful skiers who use leg muscles get pain in the quads very quickly. Pain in the quads is a sign of wrong, effortful skiing technique. I know it is hard to understand without knowing the true biomechanics of skiing.....
No, it is not hard to understand without knowing the true biomechanics of skiing. Every ski instructor I know understands this. It's not special knowledge only available to certain specialists with degrees in biomechanics.

If a skier's quads are quaking at the end of a day of skiing, that skier has been skiing in the back seat. If your quads after skiing are acting like you've been doing wall-sits, then you've been doing the equivalent of wall-sits while skiing.

Wall-sit:
The important thing to see is that the lower legs rise up at 90º to the surface, with all of the body behind the feet. The quads will be raging. At least this woman has the wall to help support her weight behind her feet so she stays upright.
Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 6.57.07 PM.png

Back seat skier with arms forward:
1642032242428.png
The fact that the arms are forward
does not erase the issue. This skier
is dong a wall-sit while skiing. The
lower legs rise at 90º to the surface
below the feet. The tails of the skis
help the skier stay upright, as does
the wall in the wall sits.
The quads will be raging.

Back seat skiers without the arms forward:
1642032375656.png1642032465625.png
Same issue. Flaminging quads. These skiers need to bend forward at the ankles in order to get their body weight centered over their feet.
 
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shadoj

Angel Diva
Also, @fgor, I saw some of your later-season videos and you look awesome! Much more confident and smooth than in the early season, plus your traverses / longer turn run-outs look intentional (to find a better line) rather than scared (will I ever be able to to turn?). You tackled some really steep chop! Great work :D
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Oh - and I wouldn’t describe it as “two steps.”
 

shadoj

Angel Diva
Oh - and I wouldn’t describe it as “two steps.”
Yay, glad you clicked with part of it! I do not think it is a scam, based on how she comments, just that she may be an over-technical engineer type (like many of my friends & sweetheart!) who is passionate about details, and may not connect with most skiers, thus coming across as "too pretentious" while just honestly wanting to help. It's OK. @Jilly & @snoWYmonkey (amongst others) are also excellent instructors who have tought all spectrums of clientele, and likely have a gift for communicating fundimentals to various personality types at this point. We all strive to make skiing more fun, accessible, safe, and efficient; the more we take in each others' perspectives and see what works for us best without being defensive or "my-way-is-best" may be the best approach. To all my instructors and teachers, it's OK to feel a little over-protective of your domain. You make us good, safe skiers and what we are. You are not paid, nor appreciated, enough. Whatever your method of making skiing approachable to us all, thank you!
 

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Also, @fgor, I saw some of your later-season videos and you look awesome! Much more confident and smooth than in the early season, plus your traverses / longer turn run-outs look intentional (to find a better line) rather than scared (will I ever be able to to turn?). You tackled some really steep chop! Great work :D
Thank you so much!! :love: Yes, I love that you point out the difference between traversing to find a different/better line rather than being scared of not being able to turn, that really describes the different feelings perfectly. I like that they look visibly different in intention. :smile: I hope that I'll be able to carry some of that confidence through to next season - my season ended 2-3 months ago and I still feel really good about what I learned and how I was skiing at the end, so I think I will be able to!
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I was also joking around a bit, though I think I can figure out your review if I try... My local hill is a Harb hill (quite the personality for a teaching system, even with its very valid points) so there's a little bit of fun poked here. Nobody can quit mentioning PMS-T or PMTS or whatever the heck it is in the local instruction, even if they have to roll their eyes!
Ahh yes, I have read Harb but learned that discussion of his method was banned on the old epicski forum due to the unending heated arguments!
 

teleskichica

Certified Ski Diva
I am looking forward to reading through this entire thread but do have a question: what leg exercises do you do to train for not skiing in the backseat?

Last week, for the very first time, it occurred to me that I "wall sit" when skiing because that is where I am really strong. I can do squats for days. But when I am forward it fires up all kinds of other muscles and I get very fatigued if I haven't been skiing regularly and I fall into the backseat to take a break. Thoughts?
 

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