First Hand Account of an Avalanche

[NannyMin]

Here's an eye-opening account of an avalanche victim that survived.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Way scary. Not to mention that this season in particular seems to present even more prime conditions....
We are even having them in the highest elevations in the east.
Really glad this guy lived to tell about it.

 

[Bravosarah]

Wow, that's pretty amazing. He's truly a lucky man.

 

[pinto]

Here's an eye-opening account of an avalanche victim that survived.

Geez, not to minimize this guy's ordeal, but I saw the thread title and thought you'd had another mishap of your own! Whew.

 

[Bravosarah]

Geez, not to minimize this guy's ordeal, but I saw the thread title and thought you'd had another mishap of your own! Whew.

:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:

Oh my goodness, I'm crying.

 

[Jilly]

Had me wondering too how she got those toes into ski boots already. I'm glad the guy lived to tell his tale.

 

[alaski]

Our group was five men and two women. The two women split off before our ski run and skied some mellower terrain further skier’s left in Benchmark Bowl. That left us five guys.

You know what they say....if you want to reduce your avalanche risk, always travel with a good woman! Good on those ladies for recognizing the risk.

 

[NannyMin]

Geez, not to minimize this guy's ordeal, but I saw the thread title and thought you'd had another mishap of your own! Whew.

Oh, goodness gracious, NO! I'm think I've had my share of drama for the next decade or so.

 

[dloveski]

reading the article, there were elements of the 'sociology' of avie risk that appears to be a common thread:

--experienced b/c skiers
--familiarity with the terrain / area
--several experts in the party (or one super-expert) to which decisions are deferred
--the mix of women in the party (few or none)

Living in Utah for almost 40 years, I've been aware of b/c risk and have nagged at my kids about the issues for years. Because it's their backyard---literally, I have been so worried about their safety out of bounds. As they get older, they are smarter (I pray anyway).

But, if you study the tragic incidents, in so many cases, there seem to be two themes:

--unaware tourist skis into backcountry thinking it's safe this 'one' time--or lack of awareness of the signals all around screaming DANGER
--experienced b/c skiers and group dynamics that seem to influence decisions that lead to tragedy (aware of dangers, taking precautions, except that critical one that day----to turn back and skip the turns and head to the resort or another route)

 

[tradygirl]

reading the article, there were elements of the 'sociology' of avie risk that appears to be a common thread:

--experienced b/c skiers
--familiarity with the terrain / area
--several experts in the party (or one super-expert) to which decisions are deferred
--the mix of women in the party (few or none)

They teach about "the human factor" in avalanche classes, but it doesn't really start to hit home until you start spending more time in the backcountry. The more experienced I get, the more I am totally convinced that human sociology is THE most critical aspect in backcountry safety.

The scariest emotions/motivators I've identified (very similar to dlove's list) are:
Powder fever (especially on a bluebird day)
The Testosterone Factor (lack of female viewpoint)
Pride/ego (so-and-so skied that, so I can ski it too)
Goal-orientation (we're skiing this-and-that line no matter what the conditions)
Familiarity (we've skied this same slope 100 times and it's always been safe)

Communication is by far the most powerful tool we have, but sadly it seems like it is the one most often neglected. I struggle with the boys to keep my voice heard, since they're usually ahead of me breaking trail and hanging out waiting for me - it seems like decisions are made before I can even enter the conversation. I have to force them to go through the decision-making process again so I can be involved. The whole process is extremely complex in terms of human interaction, and I'm not sure if I'll ever feel like I've got it "figured out". But I guess that can be a good thing too.

 

[Gloria]

They teach about "the human factor" in avalanche classes, but it doesn't really start to hit home until you start spending more time in the backcountry. The more experienced I get, the more I am totally convinced that human sociology is THE most critical aspect in backcountry safety


The whole process is extremely complex in terms of human interaction, and I'm not sure if I'll ever feel like I've got it "figured out". But I guess that can be a good thing too.

This is exactly right, back when I use to guide, our lead guide would give us his mantra every morning:
" The day you look at something and it doesn't scare you anymore, is the day you turn around, go home and quit doing it."

Sadly, of the close friends that I have lost to the rivers and mountains and what not were the ones whom always seemed the best at what they were doing.

 

[tradygirl]

" The day you look at something and it doesn't scare you anymore, is the day you turn around, go home and quit doing it."

Love that. Very good words to remember.

 

[Gloria]

Words not only to remember, but to LIVE by actually. He was kind of a funny guy, he had a bout 500 ways to ask a person if they were scared and he'd go around each morning as we were loading gear etc. and lay one on everyone personally. He always started off the morning as the shuttle driver, but if he didn't like someones answer, he would gear up and give them the keys instead. It's worked well for him, in 20 plus years hypothernia is the only thing that has ever struck any of his guests.

 

[alaski]

Huh, I'm hardly ever scared in the backcountry - I don't think I'd live by that quote. I think I make decisions in order to not have to be scared! I want to feel good about my day, not scared. If a particular line or aspect scares me, I don't ski it. I ski something that doesn't scare me at all. I don't really think it's productive to think you should be quaking in your boots every step of the way...

The human factor, though, that is one to keep an eye on. I catch myself getting lazy when I ski with friends who are avalanche forecasters. I figure they're paying attention so I don't have to. Not the best mind set.

 

[SnowEssie]

Maybe scared isnt the right word. If you're really scared you might make unneccessary mistakes out of pure nervousness? I once had a guide who said: You shouldn't be scared but you should always have respect for the mountain. (This is a translation from German so part of meaning gets lost here maybe ) It gave you the feeling the mountain was a living thing not to underestimate or mess with and you have to take into consideration what it might do to you. I still think this its a very good description of the right attitude to do BC skiing.

 

[Gloria]

Maybe scared isnt the right word. If you're really scared you might make unneccessary mistakes out of pure nervousness? I once had a guide who said: You shouldn't be scared but you should always have respect for the mountain. (This is a translation from German so part of meaning gets lost here maybe ) It gave you the feeling the mountain was a living thing not to underestimate or mess with and you have to take into consideration what it might do to you. I still think this its a very good description of the right attitude to do BC skiing.

This is exactly what we were referring to, healthy fear, respect for the mountain river whatever it is. Once you lose it or get too comfortable around it you become complacent and that is when people get hurt.

 

[alaski]

I don't know - I mean, I can't say for sure what any of those guides meant when they said that. I wonder, though, if most men actually do have to stay scared to be safer. Maybe that's a key difference in the gender-based human factor; that men do things that scare them and consider it a sign of safety consciousness whereas women can make safe choices and stay alert in the backcountry without necessarily being "scared." If men are more susceptible to group dynamics (as they seem to be), perhaps a good dose of healthy fear is beneficial? I also wonder if men tend to use the "it's normal to be scared" idea to justify being in over their heads in the backcountry (i.e., "I think this line is too extreme for me but the fact that I'm scared means I'm aware of the risks, so I'm safer" or maybe "Just because I'm scared doesn't mean this line is too extreme for me; everyone says it's normal and healthy and safer to be scared.")

In contrast, all of the female backcountry travelers I know will stop what they're doing if they're scared, because they take being scared as a sign that what they're doing is not safe.

I don't really know, this is just some half-baked musing on my part.

 

[Gloria]

I don't know - I mean, I can't say for sure what any of those guides meant when they said that. .

Take out the gender specifics, avalanches and undercut rocks etc. don't care whether or not your male or female. Think not the fear that stops you in your tracks but the fear that a parent has watching a kid do something, the underlying fear that something could happen to their child. It's a healthy fear, one that drives us as parents to keep our children safe and free from harm. It's not even a fear that is exclusive to humans, a momma grizzly bear reacts to stimulus that she feels will harm her cubs as well. Now in the mindframe of a guide go back to your statement about becoming lazy when skiing with avalanche experts. Now times that by 9. As a guide you are responsible for that many peoples lives who are expecting you to do the thinking for them. You are taking these people into life and death situations in which you are ultimately responsible for what happens to them. Irregardless of whether you are skiing a sick line somewhere or canoeing slack water around a lake, if you are not concerned or afraid of what the consequences could be for these people if you should mess up or simply not think something is a big deal anymore because you've done it so many times, you have already forgotten that you are doing the thinking for them that day, and probably shouldn't be in charge of their lives in that situation. It's this healthy amount of fear that as a guide gives you the pause to stop and check levels and conditions without the ego of already knowing and apply this knowledge to how it will affect different aspects of the trip and how the different personalities and physical traits of the unknown individuals may play into how you conduct your job in relation to them. Hardly any of us as individuals would have survived childhood if our parents didn't have some type of healthy imbedded fear for our safety and welfare within them. It's what keeps us safe and causes us to make better decisions.

 

[alaski]

Well, you can't take out gender specifics, because men are killed in avalanches at an extraordinary rate. It's a fact that men are more likely to be avalanche victims. There's a reason behind that statistic. Men do something that puts them more at risk.

I disagree with the sentiment that one must be scared to be safe in the backcountry. Aware, vigilant, observant, alert - absolutely. But scared? I think if you're scared all the time out there, stay home - you don't belong there.

If I'm scared in the backcountry (or anywhere, really) I know something is wrong and I'd better figure out what it is. There is something going on that's tickling my senses and telling me I'm in danger. It always means something - it's my brain picking up on subtle environmental cues and alerting me to their presence. If a person is afraid all the time, how could s/he tell the difference between general constant fear and the voice of his/her subconscious? Do men ignore that voice more than women do? I don't know for sure, but there's a reason why men die in avalanches and women tend not to.

I think this is different than "embedded fear" that others have referred to. If I'm afraid, I'm afraid for a reason, not as a matter of course because I'm near a mountain or in the backcountry. Maybe the difference is that I grew up in and spend 90% of my outdoors time in the backcountry so it's nothing unusual or "different" for me.

I might post this question over on ttips since it's mostly men posting there and I wonder what they'd say to the "are you scared all the time" question.

 

[Gloria]

Aware, vigilant, observant, alert - absolutely.
.

I think this is what is being referred to, not a crippling fear, just a healthy fear of what is out there and what could happen if we become too comfortable in our surroundings and become unaware, non-vigilant, non-observant, and unalert because we have done something a number of times that we may become complacent. The questions were more like: Is there anything out there that you think you might need to be aware of today? And if so how are you going to deal with it. Would be an example of 500 ways to see if a person is still concerned enough to be paying attention. What drives us to be concerned about something? Why do we lock our doors, because we are scared that someone might enter. Why do we dig pits, because we are scared that something could happen if we don't know. Why do we put a dog on a leash when out in high traffic areas, because we are scared that it might get hit by a car. Do we necessarily live in a constant state of fear with our doors locked? Do we still worry about conditions after we've dug pits and things look stable, maybe a little to some degree, but not necessarily cripplingly so. Do we still worry about our dog after we have him on a leash, hopefully not because we've remedied the situation. See it's much different to have enough fear/respect for the mountain etc and be prepared for what it may deliver unexpectidly than to have an irrational fear constantly that would be crippling. What he was looking for was the extreme opposite, he was more concerned that someone may have gotten too used to their job and lacked concern rather than making sure that they were scared from start to finish. And yes if you are fearful to a crippling point than no you shouldn't be out there, but this is simply not the same fear that was being referred to.