Fighting myself

[canadianjem]

So....no more quad, calf, ass or foot pain.....while i am on the crusey (is crusey a word?) groomers....got myself out of the back seat, kept the $1,000 bill tightly gripped in the front of my boot (why can I never find it when the day is done?), tits over tips and dont spill the tray of drinks.

Why is it when I am on a blue run that is a little icy I am so tired? It seems like I am cutting so hard. I dont do a z turn but its not a nice s either. i am not quite at the "point down the mountain, quick little turns" yet. it more of "all the way across the piste, turn, all the way across the piste, turn".....you get the picture.

should i go back to the greens and get my self accustomed to speed first or is it more of technique? It just takes sooooo much effort to get down I am not enjoying myself...im exhausted!

Any tips for ice?

 

[climbingbetty]

I'll be curious to see what others have to say to this too, because I am in the *exact* same place. Hit a little ice on a green- no problem. Icy patch on a blue- I fall apart, literally & figuratively.:no idea:

And I wonder the same thing- do I keep working on the blues in order to get better at them, or is that fact that my technique falls apart on them a reason to keep running down the greens with good technique? And for that matter, since I've moved up to trying blues, I've gotten better at the greens. Does that mean I should try to sideslip and snowplow my way down a black diamond to improve on the blues???

 

[geargrrl]

I know exactly what conditions you are speaking of, having been there this weekend.

Ice sucks. If you don't have really good carving technique to get your skis on edge, it really sucks. It wears you out in a whole different way.
You have to work everything harder to maintain an edge on it.

Don't stress about it - ideally your home mountain won't be icy very often. Keep focusing on the fundamentals. Work your way around the mountain so that you are staying on the softest runs. Ski in the middle of the day when it's warmest. There were four of us experts on the hill yesterday, and we hit a couple of total Holy Crap spots that none of us liked!!! I was tired and side slipped down a portion of the lower face of some steep black groomed thing on the way in. I completely lost my confidence on this one part. I had to make my way to the soft snow on the side, facing into the forest which is totally the wrong way to face if you are tired and not feeling confident, and get my head together to make ONE turn back onto the ice so I could start turning again. It is like that for all of us at one time or another.

GG

 

[Pequenita]

Ice is a fast surface, so your movements (edge to edge, etc.) and balance adjustments need to be faster than when not on ice. Similarly, when moving to a steeper pitch, everything needs to be done faster.

I used to think it was about setting the edges harder on ice (and maybe sliding/skidding a foot or two into a turn if the edge wasn't set well), which is taxing on the legs, but I've come to realize that it's more above quicker movements.

 

[Skier31]

Ice: The key to ice is to use very soft edges, let the skis slide and drift. If you use really soft edges, you can still steer the skis. Drifting/slipping on ice is fine and you may not be able to make the exact turn shape you want but you will get through it. Stay balanced over your skis - tendency is to sit back which does not help. Trying to carve and use lots of edge in the ice will not work.

As far as staying on the greens or pushing yourself to blues. Bob Barnes from Epicski has a rule and I can't remember exactly what it is but it is something like in a ski day you should spend 10% of your day on terrain that is very easy for you, 80% on terrain on which you are comfortable and 10% on terrain which pushes you out of your comfort zone. In order to progress, you must do a combination of terrain. You will find that the out of comfort zone terrain, suddenly becomes the comfortable terrain.

 

[Celestron2000]

I'm having this same problem as I attempt to move up to blacks right now, and I realized something the other day...
When I'm skiing in my comfort zone I have nice technique, lovely short, carved, linked turns, I'm forward etc...
I get onto a steep icy black and I'm freaked out, then without even realizing it, I'm suddenly way into the back seat, which of course means I have no control and ski like crap... so then my confidence plummets even more... you get the idea.
I'm not sure exactly what the awnser is, but clearly it's a lot about mind-set. It helps a little to remind myself that I can side slip down just about anything if need be.
Also, I'm currently reading A Conversation With Fear, which many Divas know and love. I'm currently liking the concept of lowering the task, ie I don't have to ski this run perfectly, just take a turn or two, then maybe another few turns, etc...
I like the 10/80/10 rule, I think I'll use that from now on.

 

[Skier31]

I like to do a run or two out of my comfort zone and then go back to a run that is well within my comfort zone. It gives me the positive reinforcement that I need to improve.

 

[Perty]

As to how to ski over ice...I was once told-"quickly"-it's not nice, we all slide and skid on it, just get over the dodgy bit asap and aim for something soft. The side of the piste is usually a good bet. Plus, if you ever see a bunch of people paused at the top of a steep icy bit, avoid the temptation to join em-keep up your momentum, go over the top and you'll be through the nasty stuff before you know it.

Another bit of ski instructor advice given years ago at the top of what for me at the time was a scary black, which I apply in all sort of difficult situations, is: don't be afraid to let your skis point downhill!

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Why is it when I am on a blue run that is a little icy I am so tired?

Because you're really tensed up, and that lends itself to pretty rapid onset of fatigue.

Skier31's advice above is spot-on.

 

[climbingbetty]

I like to do a run or two out of my comfort zone and then go back to a run that is well within my comfort zone. It gives me the positive reinforcement that I need to improve.

I try to do this too. I spend the morning warming-up then, ripping it up on the greens, having fun and working out little technique stuff. After lunch, I make myself go do some blue runs and depending on how successful I am, determines how many blue runs I'll do. Then as long as my knees don't feel crushed after fighting my way down a blue, I'll go back and shoot a couple green runs so that I end the day with good technique imprinted in my brain & muscles (good muscles memories vs. bad muscles memories.)

Which makes me wonder...I study a lot neurology. The brain has these cool things called mirror neurons that when we see an action being performed by another person, mirror that action in our own brain. They will actually send out all the motor signals to do that action, just as if your own body was going to do it. (another area of the brain comes in and suppresses the action at the last minute.) The crazy thing is that in studies, its been shown that an athlete can increase muscle mass just by visualizing doing their sport. If I remember the study correctly, they had two groups- athletes who did the activity and those who just visualized it. The group that just visualized it put on 80% of the muscle mass that the athletes who actually engaged in the action did. Pretty good for not moving a muscle

So skiing should work the same way. Especially if you have good technique on easier runs, you could try just visualizing yourself using the same great technique on runs that are less then comfortable. The key is in the details, think about it like you're watching a movie and you can all of the details, run through the same scenario and think about how if feels in your legs & body to make the turns. Maybe even think about the aspect of the slope and how it feels more comfortable as you ski it with better technique.

 

[pinto]

As to how to ski over ice...I was once told-"quickly"-it's not nice, we all slide and skid on it, just get over the dodgy bit asap and aim for something soft. The side of the piste is usually a good bet. Plus, if you ever see a bunch of people paused at the top of a steep icy bit, avoid the temptation to join em-keep up your momentum, go over the top and you'll be through the nasty stuff before you know it.

Another bit of ski instructor advice given years ago at the top of what for me at the time was a scary black, which I apply in all sort of difficult situations, is: don't be afraid to let your skis point downhill!

Yeah, I was skiing with a guy who is a long-time high-level instructor a few weeks back, when we had LOTS of boilerplate around here. We had a less-experienced skier with us, and while pausing at the top of a particularly icy and steep pitch, instructor turns and asks, "What's the best way to ski this?" In unison, he and I shouted, "DON'T TURN!" and took off straight down.

Now, in fairness, it was a shortish pitch that ended in a flatter, softer section, so going straight wasn't a suicidal exercise. But it just goes to show that no one really likes turning too much on that stuff...

 

[pinto]

Because you're really tensed up, and that lends itself to pretty rapid onset of fatigue.

My first thought, as well.

 

[mustski]

I like the 10/80/10 rule, I think I'll use that from now on.

This makes sense to me. The most important thing is to enjoy your day! On icy days that is much trickier than when conditions are good. Don't worry about going "back" to greens. If it is a tough condition day, hit the greens and work on form for part of the day. When your confidence is back up, hit a blue again. Keep switching it off so you don't become overly fatigued. Fatigue leads to mistakes which lead to injury. I usually ski blacks but if it is icy, I hit the blues. There is no shame in relaxing a bit and having fun!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

I love climbing Betty's visualization focus. Dart throwers that visualized actually hit their targets better than those that did actual training for that same time period!

I also think that relaxing is a huge component to success in any challenging ski situation. So do so actively. Tension will results in jerky movements, and being thrown off balance faster.

I am not totally sold on the idea of really quick turns or pointing the boards straight downhill. Quick often results in jerky, when a more consistent turn is necessary to maintain balance even if the edges are skidding across the ice.

I think that once we are tired, we need to let go of the perfect turn ideal, and allow ourselves to make more skidded, or if you will, side slip like turns. These conserve a lot of energy and they work wonders for my retired locals group at the end of the day, ice or no ice.

Practicing pivot slips might be really useful (not on ice).

I always pick a line that has me finishing my turn on a pile of scraped together snow. I am less worried about initiation and middle turn phase happening on the iciest part. If I know I can line up the finish (bottom of my C or S shape) on soft snow I stand a good chance at scrubbing a lot of speed before I start my next turn.

 

[canadianjem]

Hallelujah! Praise Jesus ! I did it I did it...go team ME!
I stopped a man on the hill yesterday... Looked like he knew what he was doing. Asked for some pointers on getting down with quick turns. He skied with me for a bit..explained some stuff..demoed...and it just clicked. Off I went..and it just worked.
But...oh yes there is a but.... On narrow steep shoots...it works great...not tired, scared, nervous...
Why oh why is it when the runs opens up nice and wide to I revert back to skiing across the piste and back to fighting myself again. Something happens between my brain and legs that just don't communicate!
Sigh...stupid body...wont do what I tell it too

 

[snow addict]

Hallelujah! Praise Jesus ! I did it I did it...go team ME!
I stopped a man on the hill yesterday... Looked like he knew what he was doing. Asked for some pointers on getting down with quick turns. He skied with me for a bit..explained some stuff..demoed...and it just clicked. Off I went..and it just worked.
But...oh yes there is a but.... On narrow steep shoots...it works great...not tired, scared, nervous...
Why oh why is it when the runs opens up nice and wide to I revert back to skiing across the piste and back to fighting myself again. Something happens between my brain and legs that just don't communicate!
Sigh...stupid body...wont do what I tell it too

Visualise that you are in a narrow corridor and try to ski within its limits.

 

[Indianaskier]

I agree with the visual aspect. Whether a person realizes it at the time or not, when in a wider area, where there is more space to look at, often we will look, not where we really want to go. When that happens, that's where we end up.
When I was instructing we would often use the analogy of, where does one look when driving or riding a bicycle? If one looks to the side, even in a distance, on a road or path, it's likely they will run off of the road or path. We look where we want to go when driving or riding a bike.
I would have a student test it out on a safe slope and it often would help them. Like all techniques, it might not work for everyone, but is just another thing to consider.

 

[carrieme]

As to how to ski over ice...I was once told-"quickly"-it's not nice, we all slide and skid on it, just get over the dodgy bit asap and aim for something soft. The side of the piste is usually a good bet. Plus, if you ever see a bunch of people paused at the top of a steep icy bit, avoid the temptation to join em-keep up your momentum, go over the top and you'll be through the nasty stuff before you know it.

Another bit of ski instructor advice given years ago at the top of what for me at the time was a scary black, which I apply in all sort of difficult situations, is: don't be afraid to let your skis point downhill!

+1 on this, agreed. That's my preference to skiing ice as well!

 

[ski now work later]

I always pick a line that has me finishing my turn on a pile of scraped together snow. I am less worried about initiation and middle turn phase happening on the iciest part. If I know I can line up the finish (bottom of my C or S shape) on soft snow I stand a good chance at scrubbing a lot of speed before I start my next turn.

This is an excellent tip, thank you!

I skied a very challenging run at Stowe last week. Typical winding New England run, not too wide, with big rocks and moguls. And barely a wisp of loose snow, bare spots galore, frozen granular everywhere. I did a lot of side slipping, worried that if I made a few quick turns that I would gain too much speed, lost control, fall, and hurt myself.

As I got lower, the pitch eased up a bit and there was a little loose snow and better coverage so I made a few turns, a bit breathless. Would have been interesting if I had your suggestion in mind SnoWYmonkey. Next time!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

And barely a wisp of loose snow, bare spots galore, frozen granular everywhere. I did a lot of side slipping, worried that if I made a few quick turns that I would gain too much speed, lost control, fall, and hurt myself.

I must confess that I have so little experience with truly icy bumps that I am not sure if there even is enough snow/ice scraped off to create little soft piles next to the troughs. What we call icy in the intermountain west is not really icy according to my students from the east. At least here it works wonders.