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Ankle flex, a key factor for good control

marzNC

Angel Diva
For those taking ski lessons, sooner or later an instructor is going to talk about flexing your ankles. But what does that actually mean? What does it look like in ski boots? Even when an instructor demonstrates, it's hard to see exactly what's going on underneath their ski pants. Properly working to have "shins to the boot" is a lot easier when you understand ankle flex.

Check out these videos to learn more about ankle flex. The first is about the difference that female anatomy makes when it comes to why staying out of the backseat can be a little more challenging when learning to ski. The one from Warren Miller was released last month and goes into detail about how lack of ankle flex causes a variety of problems when it comes to making turns easily.



FYI, I'm not an instructor. But have taken a bunch of lessons as an advanced skier in recent years from assorted PSIA Level 3 instructors. The second video was shared amongst a group of people who I did a multi-week lesson program with at my home hill.
 

Polly

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
For those taking ski lessons, sooner or later an instructor is going to talk about flexing your ankles. But what does that actually mean? What does it look like in ski boots? Even when an instructor demonstrates, it's hard to see exactly what's going on underneath their ski pants. Properly working to have "shins to the boot" is a lot easier when you understand ankle flex.

Check out these videos to learn more about ankle flex. The first is about the difference that female anatomy makes when it comes to why staying out of the backseat can be a little more challenging when learning to ski. The one from Warren Miller was released last month and goes into detail about how lack of ankle flex causes a variety of problems when it comes to making turns easily.



FYI, I'm not an instructor. But have taken a bunch of lessons as an advanced skier in recent years from assorted PSIA Level 3 instructors. The second video was shared amongst a group of people who I did a multi-week lesson program with at my home hill.


THANK YOU for posting this!!!!
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
For those taking ski lessons, sooner or later an instructor is going to talk about flexing your ankles. But what does that actually mean? What does it look like in ski boots? Even when an instructor demonstrates, it's hard to see exactly what's going on underneath their ski pants. Properly working to have "shins to the boot" is a lot easier when you understand ankle flex.

Check out these videos to learn more about ankle flex. The first is about the difference that female anatomy makes when it comes to why staying out of the backseat can be a little more challenging when learning to ski. The one from Warren Miller was released last month and goes into detail about how lack of ankle flex causes a variety of problems when it comes to making turns easily.



FYI, I'm not an instructor. But have taken a bunch of lessons as an advanced skier in recent years from assorted PSIA Level 3 instructors. The second video was shared amongst a group of people who I did a multi-week lesson program with at my home hill.

Have to admit, that first video left me totally puzzled.

The last few seconds were really good where she shows us the difference between flexing with and without involving the ankles. Excellent visual!

But the rest of it???

What does Q angle have to do with our ability to flex the ankle vs. leaving it static?

Then she moves on to excess lower spine curvature. It is not my understanding that swayback is any more common in women than in men. But even if it were, what does that have to do with our ability to flex our ankles? In her example of a person with lower spine curvature, the only reason she is out of balance is because she doesn't flex her ankles! But there is nothing about that type of spinal curve that would keep her from doing so.

Truly - most of that video makes no sense to me. And she certainly doesn't provide any information that would differentiate male from female anatomy in regards to ankle flexion.

Finally, the pelvic tuck issue is one we have discussed before on the forum. There are lots of reasons why it's a bad idea in skiing - one of which is that it limits our leg rotation range of motion. I believe @Ursula addresses the pelvic tuck issue in the video she made and posted for us if anyone is interested in another point of view on this.

Meant to add - in my experience of teaching skiing, most skiers are skiing too far back on their skis and it is an equal opportunity problem for men and women. I don't think women have any particular anatomical difficulty in this regard.
 
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SkiBam

Angel Diva
I was thinking about ankle flex the other day. My daughter and I were x-c skiing with her 14-year-old in the woods - lots of snow and hills, no grooming. Daughter told GD to bend her knees when going downhill. I said, no, think about bending at the ankles, not the knees. Ankle flex helped her keep balanced - and upright (more or less - she had a number of hilarious tumbles into deep snow, but I think she enjoyed it!). Anyway, this brought home to me that ankle flexion is equally important in x-c as in downhill.
 

sevensaes

Certified Ski Diva
I found the video very telling, as my main problem with my stance currently is that I bend at the waist and stick my butt out, and I do feel that curve in my lower back when I'm doing it (I realized this when asking myself why I had a sore lower back after ski days!) Does anyone know Kate Howe and her videos? I don't know much about her, but found a couple of her videos about ski stance pretty useful. The first one below does discuss her theories about the difference between men and women (not sure if accurate but I found them pretty entertaining!)

So, I've been aiming to try to correct my upper body problem, but it hasn't been easy or intuitive (I do realize that lessons are the way to go and plan to do this soon!) I tried the controversial "push the bush" and it does get rid of that swaybacked stance and engage the core but it's not a posture that I can maintain indefinitely while skiing especially on steeper slopes. Getting my elbows and hands even more forward does seem to help (but I worry that I'm doing the Frankenstein thing).

Any advice from the Divas? Are my upper body issues mainly reflective of not having my ankles flexed enough? Why is it so difficult for me to hinge at the hip properly (I've watched Ursula's video many times and it is brilliant btw)...is this due to a weak core?

 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Any advice from the Divas? Are my upper body issues mainly reflective of not having my ankles flexed enough? Why is it so difficult for me to hinge at the hip properly (I've watched Ursula's video many times and it is brilliant btw)...is this due to a weak core?
It's very hard to say which is the cause and which is the effect. The main reason I like working with an instructor is that a good instructor can decide in the first 5-10 minutes what fundamental skill is the best one to work on initially. Could be stance in the sense of distance between feet/skis, could be hand position, could be the "hinge point," or something that doesn't seem quite related at the time.

Have you looked at yourself in a mirror while checking out what happens as you move fore-aft? I haven't but after looking that these videos, I can imagine it would be useful.

Improving core strength is very helpful for any level of skiing. I didn't know anything about Pilates when I started deliberate ski conditioning after knee rehab (in 2012, not a skiing injury). This video was one of the first I found to be useful.

 

badger

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oh how I wish I could flex my boot even half as much as that demonstration in video #2. Are any of you actually able to do that?
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I need to retire so that I can watch these videos as I come across them. Must watch later.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
There is a reason why lessons are suggested. You cannot learn everything from You Tube. There is nothing better than an instructor and video analysis. And it doesn't matter at what level you are. I have to agree with SkiSailor on the first video. I was lost!

As for flexing your boot. I'm in a 100 flex from Atomic. You need to flex, but not fold your boots.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Oh how I wish I could flex my boot even half as much as that demonstration in video #2. Are any of you actually able to do that?
I've found that being able to flex my boots and actually doing it while making turns are slightly different. Especially on steeper terrain. Still need more practice on less challenging terrain. But that can mean bumps and/or trees, but just not quite as steep. Also the snow conditions makes a difference mentally. If I'm skiing in the northeast and know there is hard snow lurking just below the surface of fresh snow, then I'm less likely to be doing everything correctly.

I have relatively soft boots, mostly because I'm petite but also because I learned a while back when I started taking lessons regularly that there isn't really a reason for super stiff boots as long as my technique is solid. I'm not racing or hard charging down narrow chutes.
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@marzNC what is your boot flex, if you don't mind me asking? Mine is 105 and I'm about your height. I'm not hard-charging either, but I am considerably heavier.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
@marzNC what is your boot flex, if you don't mind me asking? Mine is 105 and I'm about your height. I'm not hard-charging either, but I am considerably heavier.
Don't remember but it's less than 100. In any case, the actual number is specific to a brand. So unless two skiers are using the same model line of boots a comparison doesn't mean too much.

What was more important when I got my current boots was that I changed to a 3-buckle design. Same brand as before. When I tried on the 4-buckle boots in the same line that were designed for more advanced skiers than the boots I had, those boots were way to tall for my short legs and relatively big calves. Couldn't keep them on for more than a couple minutes. I was working with the same boot fitter (in central NC) who fit me with the previous pair of 4-buckle boots. The first pair of 4-buckle boots I bought 4-5 years before I discovered the boot fitter (30 min from my house) when I was an intermediate were the same brand but really soft. They were rec boots with a walk/ski option. At that point I was only skiing 10-14 days in the southeast and spending a certain amount of time with my daughter as she learned to ski (ages 4-7).

The first lesson at Massanutten I had with Walter (L3, 30+ years experience), he was talking about opening and closing the ankle. Took another season before I really understood what he meant. The break thru came when we were on a green run because the other skier in the Silver Clinic for Over 50 couldn't do a basic drill on a blue. Walter told me during the first lesson that it would take at least a season, if not two or three to ingrain new habits given the number of hours I was spending skiing at that time. When I started doing Silver Clinics I was a low advanced skier, but mostly because I learned as a teen and don't have any fear issues.
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Agree about the difficulty of comparing across different brands. Thanks. :smile:
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks, @SkiBam . I have Dalbellos too, and would describe myself as intermediate-advanced. I outweigh you by about 60 lbs though.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Oh how I wish I could flex my boot even half as much as that demonstration in video #2. Are any of you actually able to do that?

Yes. But it took practice.

Bend forward at the ankles in the house, with socks only and in shorts, in front of a mirror propped against the wall. Stand sideways to the mirror. See how far you can bend forward at the ankle. Take a picture with the camera down low pointing at your ankles from the side; get your entire lower leg and foot, knee included, in the picture. Prop the camera down there with its timer on, or have someone else hold the camera and take a picture. It's important to point the camera straight at the side of the foot, not tilted down or at some other angle. You are trying to find and see your fullest possible range-of-motion for the ankle-bend. Be sure the pic includes the toes, the heel and the lower leg all the way up to the knee. Bend the farthest you can bend forward at your ankle for this picture. It doesn't matter for this purpose what you are doing with your upper body, but when you ski it does. Save that for later.

Now get into your boots and stand in front of that same mirror, do the same thing, take another picture with the camera in the exact same spot, so that your picture includes the toes, the heel, and the lower leg up to the knee. See if you can bend as far forward in the boot as you did before. You should be able to.

Compare the two pictures. Are you bending forward the same amount at the ankle? Does this press your shin up against the boot cuff? Does the boot cuff prohibit you from getting as far forward as your range-of-motion allows? If so, try again and use the weight of your upper body to help press the cuff downwards so that you can max out your range of motion. Keep taking pictures until you have matched the first images. It will probably require that you press down with your body weight on the cuff. If it doesn't, you may need cuffs that are more upright.

That's what you need to do when skiing. You keep your shin up against that cuff, and when turn forces build, your body weight presses down onto the cuff and you max out your range of motion. The boot gets flexed, not with muscle power, but with the pressure of your weight and your momentum. This doesn't work at all if you're aft, by the way.

Some people have very little range of motion at the ankle. Others have more. The point is that unless you're in very stiff boots, you should be able to max out your range of motion while skiing, as long as you don't use your muscles to keep your shins at a 90 degree angle to the skis. That's what we do when standing, so it comes naturally to new skiers to keep their shins "upright" in their boots, vertical relative to the skis, leaving that gap in the front of the boot cuff that is pointed out in the second video.

As a skier, you have to train yourself to keep your shin tilted forward while skiing, so that the gap disappears. But you don't flex the cuff with muscle power, you just keep your shin in contact with it, waiting for turn forces and your good stance to get your body weight to press into the cuff.

Keeping the shin at a forward angle, not at 90 degrees, takes muscle power. We use the tibialis anterior (go here for more info: https://www.innerbody.com/image_musc09/skel28.html) to keep that ankle "closed" and up against the bootcuff as we ski. It's just not intuitive. A skier can make it so, by focusing on it and doing deliberate practice. Watch the racers at your mountain when they are just standing around. You'll see their shin angle is less than 90 degrees. If they can do it, we all can do it. If that shin stays there while skiing, then when the forces of a turn press the upper body's weight down, the boot cuff will get flexed and the boot will apply downward pressure onto the ski's shovel.

Why do we want the cuff to flex? To avoid shin bang and save our poor legs from that pain, and to progressively slow down the force of our upper bodies pressing down, so we don't slam pressure onto the front of the ski and cause it to freak out.
 
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