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Ankle flex, a key factor for good control

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I found the video very telling, as my main problem with my stance currently is that I bend at the waist and stick my butt out, and I do feel that curve in my lower back when I'm doing it (I realized this when asking myself why I had a sore lower back after ski days!) Does anyone know Kate Howe and her videos? I don't know much about her, but found a couple of her videos about ski stance pretty useful. The first one below does discuss her theories about the difference between men and women (not sure if accurate but I found them pretty entertaining!)

So, I've been aiming to try to correct my upper body problem, but it hasn't been easy or intuitive (I do realize that lessons are the way to go and plan to do this soon!) I tried the controversial "push the bush" and it does get rid of that swaybacked stance and engage the core but it's not a posture that I can maintain indefinitely while skiing especially on steeper slopes. Getting my elbows and hands even more forward does seem to help (but I worry that I'm doing the Frankenstein thing).

Any advice from the Divas? Are my upper body issues mainly reflective of not having my ankles flexed enough? Why is it so difficult for me to hinge at the hip properly (I've watched Ursula's video many times and it is brilliant btw)...is this due to a weak core?


Here's a video that explains the difference between a squat and a hip hinge. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...5356153671F88E100EE15356153671F8&&FORM=VDRVRV

I too bent at the waist, had low back pain and couldn't understand how to do a hip hinge. I work with a personal trainer who 1st taught me to touch my toes. Then he had me doing corrective exercises that helped me feel the hip hinge movement. I had to practice the movement and sometimes still get confused between the two. I do take my hands and push my hips back before I start my turns at the beginning of a run. Very helpful.
 

sevensaes

Certified Ski Diva
@Little Lightning, thank you for your response! I am going to try what you propose. I've been playing around with my stance just here at home and I think I have a possible solution as well. I found that if I roll my shoulders forward a bit (which I hadn't been doing), that flattens out the curve in my lower back, tightens and pulls in my core, shifts my weight forward and gives me a lot more stability overall. It's actually amazing how effective this simple action is. I'll have an instructor confirm, but have a good feeling that this was the missing piece of the puzzle.

Don't mean to derail this thread, and will post further questions (if I have them) in the "questions about stance" thread!
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Aaaah, flexion. Dorsi or plantar? To add to the fun of the ankle flexion topic, it was only this year that I learned that flexion of the ankle occurs in both directions, unlike many other joints where the opposite of flexion is extension. So, if you want to mess with your friends or instructors, the next time they encourage you to "flex your ankle", lean way back for a few turns and ask them "like this? You did say flex the ankle right?" :jumphappy:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Back in January 2015, @Tryin2Ski started a thread asking for tips about dynamic skiing. She was in her third season. A few weeks later, she posted about what she learned in a private lesson at Massanutten (northern VA). Flexing ankles was a key movement. I've skied with her in recent years since Massanutten is more or less my home mountain. Fair to say that her skiing is much more dynamic these days. :smile:

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/dynamic-skiing.19030/page-2#post-285538

"I took a 2 hour lesson with a really good instructor with the hope of learning how to be more dynamic. He quickly pointed out that when I turn, my inside ski is waaayyyy too much forward. He also said I needed to flex my ankles more when I turn and actually pushed my body in a way to show me how much I should be flexing, I had no idea that my ankles should be flexing that much. I never would have figured that out on my own, because by him pushing me into it, I got to FEEL what it should feel like.

Once I started making turns with my ski tips almost even, THEN I was able to launch myself forward, with my skis racing around to catch up with me. This is what I was missing, what I wanted to learn to do! Then he started going over short leg/long leg which is something I wouldnt have been able to "get" if I hadnt corrected my ski tips issue. Then he taught me carving! So much fun. This lesson was such a game-changer for me. I know my skiing is much more dynamic now, I could feel it. I felt like a racer, lol.

When my inside ski tip was so far forward, it seems it didnt allow my body to be in the right position to be able to get more dynamic. Once I corrected that, everything else started coming together. I know I have a lot to practice from the lesson, like the ankle flexing, but I thought maybe this might help someone else."

Post #2 in that thread has good advice from @volklgirl. When I first read her comments, the idea of feeling skis "hook up" didn't really make that much sense. But by the time I demo'd Stöckli skis a few years later, I'd learned enough from more than one L3 instructor to bend them appropriately and really feel a carving motion start. First on the Laser SC and later on the Stormrider 85. (The Massanutten instructor, Walter, who teaches the multi-week Gold Clinic uses the Laser SC.) For a visual learner like me, much easier to learn in a lesson than by reading the description of a drill. But helps to read later on after having done a drill correctly under the guidance of an experienced instructor.

"Dynamic skiing requires upper and lower body separation and retraction and extension of the legs as well as projection of your Center of Mass (belly button) down the hill and into the center of the turn.

Single legged skiing, 1,000 steps, hop turns and pivot slips, step-up and White Pass turns, and the boot touch and Schlopy drills are all steps in the progression to get there. It's also very difficult to really learn while moving slowly, as the pressure changes during the phases of the turn are easier to feel and manage while moving with some speed.

On VERY gentle terrain, start by making some medium radius turns at speed, then begin reaching down to the bottom of the outside boot with the outside hand while reaching straight up with the other hand, then switch early between each turn. You should feel a huge pinch between your ribs and your hip bone. Make sure you're not "breaking at the waist" (bending forward) while doing this...it needs to be a directly sideways move. Done correctly, you should feel the skis really hook up and carve in the middle of the turn while building pressure near the bottom of the turn. As the turn finishes, you have to extend upright to switch hands, releasing that end-of-the-turn pressure. That should really give you the feel for more dynamic turns."
 
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marzNC

Angel Diva
@marzNC, is that last part in your post from Walter or Volklgirl?
The last part in italics in Post #24 was in Post #2 by Volklgirl (blue text is link to the original post).

For comments by Walter, you can check out his website. I don't think he's updated it in a while.

https://skiinstructorva.com

I've developed a habit of putting quotes in italics for a visual difference. I know I could use the Quote function but that tends to cut off the full text for a longer passage.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Relative to the thread title but not to the immediate posts above....

I've had a realization about keeping my ankle flexed up against the front of the boot cuff while loading the bottom of the foot 50-50ish, heel to ball-of-foot. This is what I do. I keep both ankles "closed" all the time, with some exceptions, keep weight distributed along the whole bottom of the foot, and adjust where my center of mass is by moving things from the knee up. Where that CoM is determines how much pressure is directed to the shovel of the ski as compared to the tail. I've promoted this, since it's worked so well for me.

Others are adamant about doing things differently, say keeping pressure under the foot on the ball-of-foot. It finally hit me that such people probably don't have the excessive dorsiflexion range-of-motion I have. When they close the ankle to get tongue-shin contact, their heels lift up a bit and they have ball-of-foot pressure. Their anatomy maybe doesn't allow them to do what I do, so they've found something different that works for them.

So... range of motion re: dorsiflexion, and boot cuff forward lean, both play into how people maintain good balance over their skis. New realization for me.
 

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And it was just last season, @liquidfeet, that your posts about ankle flex and KingGrump's (Epicski, Pugski) posts about buckling of boot cuffs coalesced into an Aha! for me.

I was locking my legs into the boots such that I couldn't freely open and close my ankles. "Pressuring the cuff" meant leaning my body forward, a la Leaning Tower of Pisa. Back to the green trails to learn how to stand!

If I listed all the things I learned from the time I started skiing, then crossed out all of the ones I've had to un-learn ... oh, never mind!
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Hi Sue. Interesting . . . I'll have to ponder your assessment here regarding why ankle flexibility/anatomy would affect our ability to center over the ball of the foot. Two things come immediately to mind though.

1) When I get shin-tongue contact, my heels do NOT lift off the sole of the boot. In fact, I would say my heels never ever leave the sole of my boot no matter where on my foot my weight is centered, and particularly not when my weight is centered over the ball of the foot. I would say that if a skier's heel is coming up as a result of opening or closing their ankle, there is probably a boot fit problem.

2) Also - the idea of using (opening and closing) our ankles while skiing, rather than keeping them constantly closed, is definitely one of Ursula's keys and I know she has amazingly flexible joints with excessive dorsiflexion (definitely higher than average) because we've compared our ankle flex in stocking feet! :smile: And of course - she is the queen of the "centering our weight over the ball of the foot" idea.

I'm curious what your clinicians say to you about the constantly closed ankle concept because that runs counter to the old PSIA "flex out of three joints" mantra.
 

Skier31

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I know that there are differing opinions regarding opening/closing of the ankles among the Aspen trainers.

I have been in clinics with Brendan Doran, Olympic ski jumper and fabulous skier who is a huge advocat of ankle movement.

If you look at many recreational skiers, they are “ankless”. They ski around with their ankless open. You can get away with this on groomers but not in bumps, powder or crud.

You can flex the knees and hips without ankle movement but if the ankle moves the hips and knees move also. I believe ankle movement is a key component to fore/aft centering and balance.
 

VickiK

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I was locking my legs into the boots such that I couldn't freely open and close my ankles. "Pressuring the cuff" meant leaning my body forward, a la Leaning Tower of Pisa.
Why? Were your boots too stiff?
My boots are Dalbellos, 105. I'm wondering if they're too stiff. But then, I am heavier.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
I was locking my legs into the boots such that I couldn't freely open and close my ankles. "Pressuring the cuff" meant leaning my body forward, a la Leaning Tower of Pisa. Back to the green trails to learn how to stand!

That does sound like boots that are too stiff! But it is important to remember that we can't effectively flex any boot using just our muscles. We do have to use our weight. Leaning tower of Pisa sounds pretty radical and stiff, Lol. But with ankles, knees and hips slightly flexed you can really bring your weight to bear over the boot cuff. In addition to skiing around with ankles open as @Skier31 indicated, many skiers are also too vertical in their torso. It's ok to flex forward a bit in your hips. Think shoulders over toes. And once we can really direct our weight significantly to the outside ski, then voila ! - our body weight plus turn g forces are all focused on flexing one boot and ski!
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Since this thread has continued to be useful, here's Ursula's video clinic about "weight and pressure" again that's in Post #3. It's called "About Stance, Weight versus Pressure and Leg Rotation in Skiing." A clear example of Weight vs Pressure comes first. Can see what proper ankle flexing and the associated bend at the knees and hips looks like. Can listen to her boots as her ankles move. She also talks about students who "lock their ankle" and what happens when they do that.

Ursula also covers "matching angles." My instructor at Alta took video of me and my friend (2014, he hadn't had a lesson in decades) during the first semi-private lesson I did with him. He wanted to show us the angles he was looking at and trying to get us to adjust. He used an app on his phone to pick out a relevant still pic and then drew lines. Took me a couple more seasons to ingrain the better approach, but it certainly helped to see not only what I was doing, but also what my friend was not doing properly. He was an advanced skier in middle school long ago but hadn't really made the adjustment to current ski technology yet. (Not my ski buddy Bill.)

 

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Why? Were your boots too stiff?
My boots are Dalbellos, 105. I'm wondering if they're too stiff. But then, I am heavier.
I think the first problem was simply tightening the top 2 buckles too much. Once I gave my legs a little breathing room and started focusing on opening and closing my ankles (at Mammoth last season), it started feeling much more fluid.

Beyond that, I don't know if the boots are too stiff. The skier was.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hi Sue. .... I'm curious what your clinicians say to you about the constantly closed ankle concept because that runs counter to the old PSIA "flex out of three joints" mantra.

Trainers are all over the place with their prescriptions for what to do with the ankles. You may know this. The ones I trust say my stance is excellent. I no longer believe there's a one-size-fits-all type answer.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
:bump:
I started working on ski conditioning for the upcoming season. Have a ski trip out west planned for Dec, so need to get back in shape. Since stretching and flexibility is something I really need to work on, I've been doing stuff for ankle movement. Reminded me of this thread.
 

skinnyfootskis

Angel Diva
Yes. But it took practice.

Bend forward at the ankles in the house, with socks only and in shorts, in front of a mirror propped against the wall. Stand sideways to the mirror. See how far you can bend forward at the ankle. Take a picture with the camera down low pointing at your ankles from the side; get your entire lower leg and foot, knee included, in the picture. Prop the camera down there with its timer on, or have someone else hold the camera and take a picture. It's important to point the camera straight at the side of the foot, not tilted down or at some other angle. You are trying to find and see your fullest possible range-of-motion for the ankle-bend. Be sure the pic includes the toes, the heel and the lower leg all the way up to the knee. Bend the farthest you can bend forward at your ankle for this picture. It doesn't matter for this purpose what you are doing with your upper body, but when you ski it does. Save that for later.

Now get into your boots and stand in front of that same mirror, do the same thing, take another picture with the camera in the exact same spot, so that your picture includes the toes, the heel, and the lower leg up to the knee. See if you can bend as far forward in the boot as you did before. You should be able to.

Compare the two pictures. Are you bending forward the same amount at the ankle? Does this press your shin up against the boot cuff? Does the boot cuff prohibit you from getting as far forward as your range-of-motion allows? If so, try again and use the weight of your upper body to help press the cuff downwards so that you can max out your range of motion. Keep taking pictures until you have matched the first images. It will probably require that you press down with your body weight on the cuff. If it doesn't, you may need cuffs that are more upright.

That's what you need to do when skiing. You keep your shin up against that cuff, and when turn forces build, your body weight presses down onto the cuff and you max out your range of motion. The boot gets flexed, not with muscle power, but with the pressure of your weight and your momentum. This doesn't work at all if you're aft, by the way.

Some people have very little range of motion at the ankle. Others have more. The point is that unless you're in very stiff boots, you should be able to max out your range of motion while skiing, as long as you don't use your muscles to keep your shins at a 90 degree angle to the skis. That's what we do when standing, so it comes naturally to new skiers to keep their shins "upright" in their boots, vertical relative to the skis, leaving that gap in the front of the boot cuff that is pointed out in the second video.

As a skier, you have to train yourself to keep your shin tilted forward while skiing, so that the gap disappears. But you don't flex the cuff with muscle power, you just keep your shin in contact with it, waiting for turn forces and your good stance to get your body weight to press into the cuff.

Keeping the shin at a forward angle, not at 90 degrees, takes muscle power. We use the tibialis anterior (go here for more info: https://www.innerbody.com/image_musc09/skel28.html) to keep that ankle "closed" and up against the bootcuff as we ski. It's just not intuitive. A skier can make it so, by focusing on it and doing deliberate practice. Watch the racers at your mountain when they are just standing around. You'll see their shin angle is less than 90 degrees. If they can do it, we all can do it. If that shin stays there while skiing, then when the forces of a turn press the upper body's weight down, the boot cuff will get flexed and the boot will apply downward pressure onto the ski's shovel.

Why do we want the cuff to flex? To avoid shin bang and save our poor legs from that pain, and to progressively slow down the force of our upper bodies pressing down, so we don't slam pressure onto the front of the ski and cause it to freak out.
We went to Big Snow this week and I am so thankful that I grabbed a pair of sorbathane/high density rubber inner soles. I shoved them around my shins to protect them. The night before I tried my boots on and hurt all night from 5 minutes flexing. I have a huge gap between shins and tongue. I tightened the power strap and that helped but I would be way more sore had I not had the pads. The professional boot fitter might be getting another visit. I still can’t flex my boots much while in skis. I am glad we went as I could tell my workouts helped but not at all in the shins, or ankles.
 

skinnyfootskis

Angel Diva
:bump:
I started working on ski conditioning for the upcoming season. Have a ski trip out west planned for Dec, so need to get back in shape. Since stretching and flexibility is something I really need to work on, I've been doing stuff for ankle movement. Reminded me of this thread.

I just started mat Pilates....I’m finding it helpful especially since I cannot point my toes. Great core workouts.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I just started mat Pilates....I’m finding it helpful especially since I cannot point my toes. Great core workouts.
Have you come across this video? It's one of my favorites because I can do it anywhere. The ski instructor who became a Pilates instructor is probably older than you may guess. I tried to do this routine 3-4 times a week during pre-season a year ago. Need to start up again.

 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
We went to Big Snow this week and I am so thankful that I grabbed a pair of sorbathane/high density rubber inner soles. I shoved them around my shins to protect them. The night before I tried my boots on and hurt all night from 5 minutes flexing. I have a huge gap between shins and tongue. I tightened the power strap and that helped but I would be way more sore had I not had the pads. The professional boot fitter might be getting another visit. I still can’t flex my boots much while in skis. I am glad we went as I could tell my workouts helped but not at all in the shins, or ankles.
You may have shin bang. That's bruising of the shin from having it bang into the front of the cuff while you are skiing. To avoid this, the whole shin, from ankle bend up to top of boot, should contact the tongue of the boot. Shin bang comes from only the upper part of your shin bumping into the cuff, up at the top of the boot, while the lower part of the shin stays lightly in contact if at all.

If there is room inside the low part of the cuff that allows this bumping up at the top to happen, your boot cuffs are too wide for your lower legs. You may need new boots that fit properly. Or just tighten the two cuff buckles and see if that helps, along with the power strap. A GOOD bootfitter can tell you if your boots are too loose.

Best of luck getting this sorted out.
 

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