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Help Needed: Help Understanding Correct Stance/Posture

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Not necessarily a bad thing! It's all about the matching angles. The more you flex your ankles and knees the more you MUST flex forward at the hip!

Yes - but flexing at the hip is not the same as bending at the waist. There's the angle between your iliac crest and your femur. There's the angle between your belly button and your iliac crest. (I am sure there's a better reference point than the iliac crest, but it's the best one I can think of.)

When I get thrown forward in the bumps, it's not because I'm flexing more at the hip.

If I'm mistaken, let me know!
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Thanks, everyone! This has been illuminating, and I understand that it's going to take some hard work; so it looks like I'm starting the season with a solid goal: work on my stance, and find a good instructor asap.
When I started doing semi-private lessons at Alta with friends, it was fascinating to observe the instructors work on stance with older adults who had not had a lesson since middle school. I'd started taking lessons regularly a few years before, so was ahead of them when it came to stance. Still needed more practice on easier terrain to really ingrain the feelings so that a proper athletic stance can feel natural on steeper and more complex terrain. For that sort of practice, mileage at bigger mountain helps since the groomers are way longer than the Mid-Atlantic. Took 2-3 seasons to get closer to not having to think about it all the time.

The instructor I've worked with the most at Alta starts with considering the placement of elbows in relation to body. Also a drill involving dragging poles on easy terrain, including cat tracks. Of course, it helps a lot to have an instructor making sure that the drill is being done correctly. He also took video and then drew lines on a still shot to show what wasn't quite right.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Yes - but flexing at the hip is not the same as bending at the waist. There's the angle between your iliac crest and your femur. There's the angle between your belly button and your iliac crest. (I am sure there's a better reference point than the iliac crest, but it's the best one I can think of.)

When I get thrown forward in the bumps, it's not because I'm flexing more at the hip.

If I'm mistaken, let me know!

For me, bending at the waist is about flexing the hip joint. So maybe it's just a terminology thing. That is certainly what we are aiming for in skiing when we talk about flexing and extending out of 3 joints - ankle, knee and hip. Any flexion above the hip joint is in the spine. But you severely limit your range of motion and can't really match angles if you try to bend forward using only your spine. That said - you can still use flexion of your spine for shock absorption - like in the bumps. Nothing wrong with that. That's one of those off piste situations where a strong core is helpful.
 

Blondeinabmw

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
good nuggets from Jenn
She's full of those! LOL! Love her!

Around this time last year, I started taking Pure Barre classes, which use a "tuck" method to engage the core throughout a majority of the movements. To describe HOW to tuck the pelvis, they encourage the visualization of drawing your hip bones to your ribs. I think just the verbal cue of this description all but removes the tendency to use the seat muscles to accomplish this motion. Its quite addictive actually, and I found myself "tucking" quite frequently - in the car, at my desk, washing dishes, you name it. It made my skiing far better, likely be strengthening those deeper core muscles (not necessarily the ones that make your tummy flat, but the ones that keep you upright, your spine straight and help with overall stability). This is a good written description of the technique: https://purebarre.com/blog/2016/04/29/tuck-everything-always-wanted-know-pure-barre-tuck/
And a video from another studio that shows it visually:
 

Gloria

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Um. There are more than 2 natural curves in the spine.

When it comes to core engagement, a couple other ways to think about it are making the space between the pubic bone and belly button "shorter," and/or drawing the tailbone/scrubbing buttocks flesh down towards the heels (rather than tucking). Both should cause the same movement, but sometimes different words make more sense.
Yes, absolutely. The lumbar and thoracic are the most confused two in exercise. Where there are excercises in yoga, pilates etc that are lying and static where the pelvis is tucked and the lumbar curve is flattened, it doesn't always apply to dynamic or loaded movements safely. These are good cues too.
 

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes - but flexing at the hip is not the same as bending at the waist. There's the angle between your iliac crest and your femur. There's the angle between your belly button and your iliac crest. (I am sure there's a better reference point than the iliac crest, but it's the best one I can think of.)

When I get thrown forward in the bumps, it's not because I'm flexing more at the hip.

If I'm mistaken, let me know!
No, I think you're correct. It sounds like you're describing a "hip hinge" commonly used when performing deadlifts, swings,etc. However, it's a basic human movement. When a baby learns to walk do they bend at the waist or tuck their bottoms? No, when they are squatting or picking something off the floor they hinge at the hips. No one taught them this, they earned these movements as part of their development in learning to walk.
Here's a link from https://www.mechanicsofsport.com/skiing/basic_mechanics/stance.html
If you look at the angles between the stick figures torso (hips) and legs you'll see the hip hinge. There is no bending at the waist or tucking the bottom under. In every picture, no matter the body position the hip hinge is there. When you look at pictures of good skiers you'll see that same hip hinge pattern.
I tuck my bottom when I do planks. I've tried to tuck my bottom skiing but can't do it for long. Why? because the longest I can hold a plank is 2 minutes. No way can I hold a plank for 5 hours of skiing.
There's so many variables from your own movement patterns, new boots, delta angle on your bindings, etc. that it's hard to say what one thing will work. Just keep observing your movements, try different positions and your body will tell you when it feels good.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I love the Pure Barre tuck video--that I can sort of understand. How to sustain it while skiing, though?

My school sport was basketball, and I still go to the gym where I work with my iPod to zone out and just focus on my free-throw form. It's like yoga and meditation combined, and though I'm focusing on a number of subtle movements all at once, I don't ever feel frustrated. I always see or feel very clearly what I did right or wrong and can correct with confidence.

Skiing form, though...gah. I still don't really "see" what I'm supposed to be doing with my torso and hips. Occasionally I get lucky and feel myself centered over my skis and really capturing the energy into and out of turns, but then when it falls apart (which it does, quickly, on anything steep enough to reveal gravitational pull), I can't diagnose.

I'm hoping I can find a lesson with someone who's willing to spend time helping me with this.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Skiing form, though...gah. I still don't really "see" what I'm supposed to be doing with my torso and hips. Occasionally I get lucky and feel myself centered over my skis and really capturing the energy into and out of turns, but then when it falls apart (which it does, quickly, on anything steep enough to reveal gravitational pull), I can't diagnose.

I'm hoping I can find a lesson with someone who's willing to spend time helping me with this.

Just curious - did you check out Ursula's posts in the thread I linked to above? I had been hoping you would get a good visual from those posts.

I agree - for me, the pelvic tuck thing never worked. That is just not a position my body can comfortably maintain for more than a minute or two - not helpful for me for a long ski day.

What you're supposed to be doing with your torso is matching the angle of your back to the angle of your shin by flexing at the hip. (The angle from knee to hip also matches but in the other direction). I practiced it by looking in a mirror. Whether I was short (deeply flexed), medium or tall, those angles must still match. All 3 joints must be flexed or extended proportionally. And all the while, your weight should be centered over the balls of your feet - just like when you're shooting a free throw. You can see what I mean in Ursula's stick figures. That's it! :smile: Not complicated, but it DOES take practice to get the feeling into your body.

Don't try to take this into steeper terrain until you have it nailed on easy green slopes.

That said - it falls apart in steeper terrain if you don't commit your body down the fall line enough. As the skis tilt down the slope, you must send your body down the fall line so that your body stays perpendicular to the skis. Otherwise you are instantly in the back seat.
 

Ursula

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ok, @Skisailor, the pressure is on. Please let us put together a video over this upcoming weekend to clear up some myths!!!! We are NOT standing!!! while we are skiing!!! So, all the stuff about "tucking the hip under" or whatever folks want to call it, while maybe great for ballet and standing still, is truly NOT what you want when it comes to efficient skiing. Or playing tennis, or rollerskating, etc.
I promise to try my best to get something on video for the Divas.
Ursula
 

santacruz skier

Angel Diva
Ok, @Skisailor, the pressure is on. Please let us put together a video over this upcoming weekend to clear up some myths!!!! We are NOT standing!!! while we are skiing!!! So, all the stuff about "tucking the hip under" or whatever folks want to call it, while maybe great for ballet and standing still, is truly NOT what you want when it comes to efficient skiing. Or playing tennis, or rollerskating, etc.
I promise to try my best to get something on video for the Divas.
Ursula
I'm so glad you chimed in as I was going to ask @Skisailor for a picture/video of her in the stance that is being discussed. I got completely confused....
 

heather matthews

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The critique Ursula makes of JF Beaulieu's technique in the thread referred to is fascinating especially in respect of being an older skier and not generally having the physical reserves to ski in the manner he does . It's also so interesting the nuances in technique that seem to exist between different countries and this year has really opened my eyes to this and so much more.Looking forward to Ursula and skisailor's video.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
So, all the stuff about "tucking the hip under" or whatever folks want to call it, while maybe great for ballet and standing still, is truly NOT what you want when it comes to efficient skiing. Or playing tennis, or rollerskating, etc.
I promise to try my best to get something on video for the Divas.

@Ursula I'm SO glad to hear that, it was giving me fits! I'd love to see video. Thanks for your help!!

What you're supposed to be doing with your torso is matching the angle of your back to the angle of your shin by flexing at the hip

@Skisailor Thanks so much for that: your description is what I needed in order to understand the stick figures in Ursula's post. Now I see what I'm supposed to see and I can work on it. Yay!! :yahoo:

Hopefully we're close to some opening dates here; not likely this weekend, but possibly next. I can't wait to get to work!
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, @Skisailor, the pressure is on. Please let us put together a video over this upcoming weekend to clear up some myths!!!! We are NOT standing!!! while we are skiing!!! So, all the stuff about "tucking the hip under" or whatever folks want to call it, while maybe great for ballet and standing still, is truly NOT what you want when it comes to efficient skiing. Or playing tennis, or rollerskating, etc.
I promise to try my best to get something on video for the Divas.
Ursula

I love this. Like I'm sure is true of many others, I'm a visual learner. So this would be a great help. Thank you!
 
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Kimmyt

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ok, @Skisailor, the pressure is on. Please let us put together a video over this upcoming weekend to clear up some myths!!!! We are NOT standing!!! while we are skiing!!! So, all the stuff about "tucking the hip under" or whatever folks want to call it, while maybe great for ballet and standing still, is truly NOT what you want when it comes to efficient skiing. Or playing tennis, or rollerskating, etc.
I promise to try my best to get something on video for the Divas.
Ursula

I get your point, but the tips about 'tucking the hips' and the video from the barre class thing can help a person identify what it feels like to use the small muscles that are required during skiing to reduce anterior tilt which in turn can make it easier to 'feel' the correct movement when on skis. So, while not what you want to do during skiing because your stance is different, can still be relevant from a muscle activation standpoint. In my non-instructor opinion, anyway. Looking forward to the video though, hopefully my mind will be blown as this thread touches on the main thing I've been working on with my skiing in the last few years.
 

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Here is a great article I found on hip hinge and neutral spine. FWIW, try the hip hinge ( using your fingers in the crease and bending over them ) in your normal body position, then tuck your pelvis and try to hip hinge.

https://snowbrains.com/improving-skiing-stance-hips/

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for yesterday but couldn't find it. I'm the skier that's "flexed though the spine" in the 1st picture. However, when I tried to teach myself the hip hinge I hyperextended the lower spine. One point that is missing is Gray Cook says don't hip hinge if you can't toe touch. The 1st thing my trainer taught me was toe touching. When I figured that out he taught me to hip hinge by kneeling on the floor, putting a band in the crease of my hips and letting it pull them back. The upper body folds forward as the hips move backward. Kneeling takes the legs out of the movement and enables the glutes to work.
 

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@Ursula I'm SO glad to hear that, it was giving me fits! I'd love to see video. Thanks for your help!!



@Skisailor Thanks so much for that: your description is what I needed in order to understand the stick figures in Ursula's post. Now I see what I'm supposed to see and I can work on it. Yay!! :yahoo:

Hopefully we're close to some opening dates here; not likely this weekend, but possibly next. I can't wait to get to work!
 

Little Lightning

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Just curious - did you check out Ursula's posts in the thread I linked to above? I had been hoping you would get a good visual from those posts.

I agree - for me, the pelvic tuck thing never worked. That is just not a position my body can comfortably maintain for more than a minute or two - not helpful for me for a long ski day.

What you're supposed to be doing with your torso is matching the angle of your back to the angle of your shin by flexing at the hip. (The angle from knee to hip also matches but in the other direction). I practiced it by looking in a mirror. Whether I was short (deeply flexed), medium or tall, those angles must still match. All 3 joints must be flexed or extended proportionally. And all the while, your weight should be centered over the balls of your feet - just like when you're shooting a free throw. You can see what I mean in Ursula's stick figures. That's it! :smile: Not complicated, but it DOES take practice to get the feeling into your body.

Don't try to take this into steeper terrain until you have it nailed on easy green slopes.

That said - it falls apart in steeper terrain if you don't commit your body down the fall line enough. As the skis tilt down the slope, you must send your body down the fall line so that your body stays perpendicular to the skis. Otherwise you are instantly in the back seat.

I've heard this so many times but no one explained how to do it. After I read this I thought, yeah, right, please tell me how to do it. Then I did my hip hinge while looking in the mirror and, wow, I can now see the alignment of the upper body with the shins. As I move up and down the alignment stays the same.

Correct me if wrong but I'm thinking that bending at the waist is the reason why I have so much trouble on steeper slopes. When I bend at the waist my center is changed, I can't unweight my skis and I don't move then I freeze (I'm afraid of heights). Then I'm "stuck". When I hip hinge my center is aligned, my legs are free to move and I can move into the fall line. Keep in mind this is theoretical as I haven't been on the slopes yet this year.
 

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