Uphill arm lift: good drill or bad habit?

[Skisailor]

Maybe there is confusion over which leg you mean when you say "inside ski"? And when during the turn do you shift your weight to the "outside ski"?

Let's try this:
You are slowly traversing across a slope from left to right. That means your left leg is downhill and your right leg is uphill. The weight is mostly on the left, downhill ski. The right uphill leg is very light. Now you want to make a left turn. What do you do??

Also - I'm trying to visualize how taking the weight off of either ski could actually widen your stance. Whenever I take the weight off a leg it tends to want to hang in its natural position under my hips - where it would normally be when I'm standing or walking.

 

[volklgirl]

I would suggest that you go back to basics....slow gliding wedge turns on a very easy slope with calm and quiet upper body. Do this over and over and over. No edging!

Once that is smooth and natural, add gently lightening the inside ski (left ski in a left turn, right ski in a right turn) by lifting the tail a tiny bit or just tapping that ski on the snow during the middle of the turn. If this changes what's happening to your upper body, go back to just the gliding wedge while working on staying quiet and patient. Everything should happen very slowly and gently. Once you can do these turns with a light inside ski and quiet body, without gaining speed, then you can either work on allowing the inside ski to drift to parallel, or go onto slightly steeper terrain (but NOT both).

Right now you're ingraining odd habits and turns that are too quick to be efficient. Slow it down. A lot.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

You are slowly traversing across a slope from left to right. That means your left leg is downhill and your right leg is uphill. The weight is mostly on the left, downhill ski. The right uphill leg is very light. Now you want to make a left turn. What do you do??

OK. I'm really bad at this... I cannot be sure about the exact timing, but this is what I think I do. I can't tell from the video if I am doing this or not.

I'm picturing a GS turn with lots of space.

I'm not yet at "fall line", if my weight is still on the downhill ski. I am still finishing the previous turn.

My left arm is probably a little bit back (ideally, should not be), and the pole tip is starting to swing forward and downhill, toward the next plant point, which shifts my torso and pelvis more to the left, but the weight shifts more to the right foot, evening them out. (I'm thinking this is the bit that sounds odd to you?) Right arm is a little bit forward, having just pulled out of a pole plant; because the pole is too long, the right arm often gets dragged/pushed backward, which pushes the left arm forward, which is what I want anyway. (The lower to the ground I am, the more the right arm would get bounced backward, as the poles become about four inches too long at this point.)

As I cross the "fall line", or the end of this turn and the beginning of the left, the weight is even between the feet. (The frame with the super wide stance above.) The legs are at their straightest and are even with each other. The skis are not edged at all. Pelvis is parallel to the ground. Torso is perpendicular to the slope. Ideally, my arms are closest to their neutral position, the right arm maybe lifted up a little to avoid dragging the poles (which I could achieve by flicking my wrist more, too), left arm pointing down and forward toward the next planting point.

Left pole touches or plants at this point and more of the weight goes to right ski, and I begin to really turn. I start to incline inside, i.e., downhill, leftward. On crud, I bounce "up" a little with the pole plant, and use the movement back down to power the pressure on the right ski (or both skis in powder).

On flats, I do not seriously transfer weight to the right ski until I'm about 30 degrees uphill from the peak of the turn (peak of the turn being when I'm pointing down the hill.) Sometimes I am late, but the transfer is usually done by the peak. On crud and powder, I try to do this sooner, 60 degrees or so, making it feel like I am kicking up hill, but it's really down into the snow, giving me a firm footing and bending the ski, making the tip and tail point up more, for more float. The right ski is now seriously bent and turning. The left ski is just dragging along for the ride, but it's unedged, so rotates easily, unless it's really cruddy.

Ideally, the torso faces the same direction as the right ski, but is tilted inward, to the left, downhill.

On groomers, I press against the inside/left edge of the right ski. On powder, I press against the base of the right ski.

At the peak of the turn, when I am facing downhill and for a little bit after that, 70-100% of the weight is on the right foot. All on the ball on flats, even or more on the heel on crud and powder. Left ski is not edged, and can rotate freely. At this point, in crud, if the left foot drags a little bit and forms a wedge, or gets caught on a track, it gets picked up off the ground. On flats, the left knee is bent to 90-120 degrees, depending on how strong I am feeling and how fast I am going, right knee is almost straight. On crud and powder, they are more even. Still, left knee is always bent more, and is more forward. Skis are at their farthest apart. Left ski is usually more forward. The left arm is still bouncing up from the pole plant. (If I keep it up, or pretend that it was bounced up, then I have my infamous arm lift.) I have no idea what my right arm is doing at this point; probably neutral and a little back.

After the peak, there is sometimes a moment of uncertainty, in which case I traverse while keeping the weight on the right foot. If there is a skid or mushy powder there is even more pressure on the right foot to keep the edge. If I'm losing the edge on the right foot, I shift to the left foot, but without changing the posture. If the terrain is really uneven, I even out the weight between the skis, and lower my upper body more; skis come closer together, and I traverse until I feel secure on both feet. If I feel secure enough, the right arm starts to go forward and the weight shifts toward neutral. The skis come closer together, although on crud and powder they often stay apart (like in the video) for left-right stability.

Before I return to the fall line, the right arm starts to move forward...

And so it repeats.

* * *

Alternatively, from the position you describe, I can simply transfer all weight to the right ski. The right ski will flatten out, then edge to its left edge, and start to turn. The movement of the boot flattening against the snow pushes my torso to the left, and I press against the right ski's new edge to then shift my torso to the left. The knees never really straighten out, as I'm squatting at fall line. This is murder on the thighs, as they are doing all the work of shifting the weight, so I do it only if I have to rush it.

* * *

Every time I reread this I'm finding a typo, so this might be completely jumbled up. And, remember, poor proprioception...

Whenever I take the weight off a leg it tends to want to hang in its natural position under my hips - where it would normally be when I'm standing or walking.

I think my inside leg takes this literally, under the hip as in as the ball drops from my hip, as opposed to hip-width from the outside leg. (I try to keep my pelvis parallel to the ground.)

 

[Skisailor]

Wow!

I have to admit that I couldn't really follow all that! So complicated! Forget all the crud and powder scenarios etc. Assume a slowish speed medium radius turn on a green groomer. Perhaps I should have been more specific. Don't describe the pole touches etc. When you consider my original scenario, what happens with your weight during that left turn? We start out traversing across the fall line with 80% of our weight on the left, downhill leg. What happens next?

And I do find your description of the drawings interesting. I don't see any way that the weight is over the outside ski in that first drawing. Maybe if you were drawing Lindsey Vonn skiing around a gate at 75 mph. But otherwise . . .
Now - I'm assuming that the long leg in your first drawing is what you are calling the outside one? Is that right?? If so, the drawing seems to depict someone pushing with their long leg against an edged ski and moving their weight onto the short leg.

Are you following me?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

If this changes what's happening to your upper body, go back to just the gliding wedge while working on staying quiet and patient. Everything should happen very slowly and gently.

Honestly, if I want to quiet my upper body, all I have to do is stay on groomers and not pole plant. I'm happy to hone my basics, but a lot of my "dirty tricks" are coming from the fact that I just do not have enough momentum to cut through wet crud or wet powder, and need some way to power the turn. I understand that I should not be rushing the turns, and I will try your back-to-basics drill, but then I am losing all of my tools for dealing with steeps on cruddy days. I am dealing with resorts that routinely choose not to groom their funnest trails, and powder is almost always wet and heavy and sticky, and almost immediately tracked out, refrozen, and/or melting...

I really appreciate your advice, @volklgirl, as I always do, and I know everyone is right, but I'm having a potentially pretty depressing season this year, because it looks like I will be lucky to have 10 days on the snow this season, never mind break even on the season pass, between pathetic snow pack, sick children, and work. So far it's been a difficult snow every day, and I can't even do my usual trick of getting on first chair because of family needs. I have yet to be on even a short stretch of clean, smooth groomer, never mind clean, smooth powder. I will do the best I can with these drills, and keep my spirits up, but I am also in desperate need for some cheap shortcuts t0 use on those few days I may or may not have... (literally)

Anyway... thanks for indulging my vent... back to your point... ummm... Yes, slow, gentle turns. It's possible that I've forgotten how to do that. It makes sense to firm up the basics. Like doing the scales on the piano. Learning to walk after an injury.

On the up side, my stock portfolio did really well today. So, not all depressing.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Now - I'm assuming that the long leg in your first drawing is what you are calling the outside one?

Yes.

If so, the drawing seems to depict someone pushing with their long leg against an edged ski and moving their weight onto the short leg.

Well, therein lies... something... Hmmm... I'm only going 20-25 mph or so... but all my weight really is on the edged ski.

When you consider my original scenario, what happens with your weight during that left turn?

The short answer is that the torso moves to the left/inside, but the weight goes to the right foot.

I'll see if I can find or get a clip where you can really see me lift the left foot while inclined to the left, with or without the arm lift. One thing I remember is that, when I get off a lift, I often do the arm lift to make a quick turn--to avoid people loitering there--and the inside ski almost always gets off the ground.

Is this really not a thing?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Right now you're ingraining odd habits and turns that are too quick to be efficient. Slow it down. A lot.

That totally makes sense. I've been placing too much emphasis on quickness and overpowering.

Thank you...

 

[Skier31]

Is there any way you can take a lesson? It may be helpful for you to ski with someone who can observe what you are doing and offer real time feedback.

 

[Skisailor]

The short answer is that the torso moves to the left/inside, but theweight goes to the right foot.

I think this is the key to the discussion. I don't see how this is actually possible in light of the physics of the situation.
At the edge angle in the drawing, with the inclination shown, I don't see how you could lift your inside foot in a sustained fashion and not fall over unless you would be going much faster than you are going in the video.

Have you ever done outside ski turns where the inside leg is lifted throughout the whole turn?

 

[liquidfeet]

....but I am also in desperate need for some cheap shortcuts t0 use on those few days I may or may not have...

....Yes, slow, gentle turns. It's possible that I've forgotten how to do that. It makes sense to firm up the basics. Like doing the scales on the piano. Learning to walk after an injury.

....On the up side, my stock portfolio did really well today. So, not all depressing.

@Fluffy Kitty,
Everyone here is suggesting pretty much the same stuff. Our advice is to go to the learning terrain, ski slowly, and try to get familiar with good movements that are quite different from the ones you are currently using. New movements can't be learned when one is going fast; reasonable caution intrudes and the skier uses what's familiar instead of the new stuff. A lesson would do you a ton of good.

I hear you that you don't want to spend time on learning terrain doing stuff slowly with only a few days possible on the snow this season. I hear you that you want a short cut to improvement (don't we all?). I hear you that you don't trust your proprioception since what you feel and intend isn't what you see in the videos (join the crowd - video tells the truth!)

But there are no shortcuts. The problem is not your poles, by the way. You need to learn a new way of starting your turns. What you feel yourself doing is not what you are actually doing. This is quite common in skiing. That's what instructors are for, to tell you what you're doing, and to get you to feel yourself doing something more effective during the lesson. Then you get to do your homework after the lesson to get that new stuff embedded. Do consider taking a lesson. Your kids can give that to you as a birthday present.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

What you feel yourself doing is not what you are actually doing.

Yeah, that seems to be the repeated theme. Especially if what I think I'm doing is physically impossible.

And sorry about the tantrum... turns out I was coming down with a migraine, which often happens after a ski weekend, ironically... and I am not really as interested in "shortcuts" as I sounded. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed and discouraged, for sure... but probably more upset at the rock-ski days than anything.

I have been trying to arrange a lesson, but one thing or another keeps getting in the way. This year, for instance, I could have spent the money on a private lesson instead of the season pass I won't be able to use. And now the remaining vacation fund needs to pay for lifts and lodging at another resort that has snow. Not being able to get a lesson is frustrating, too... and makes me all the more appreciative of the feedback I have gotten here. At least I now know what I need to ask about and work on.

I also have a years-long standing permission to go on a week-long ski vacation on my own; just have not been able to make it work in terms of timing and cost. It may be a few more years before I can afford to leave the state to go skiing; in my line of work, working more does not always translate into making more money. On the one hand, I'm excited to spend a week with life-changing lessons, but on the other hand dreading that that's all I'll get to do during my once-in-a-lifetime treat... Anyway, lots of mixed feelings here. Thank you for your understanding.

Have you ever done outside ski turns where the inside leg is lifted throughout the whole turn?

I have not; I tried to, but I need the snow to be nicer and uncrowded to feel like I can dare. I guess I can try to do it and action-cam my feet. I did find a helmet-cam footage where I do it about 50% of the time.

 

[newboots]

I've been lurking here trying to learn things. I just want to say, I've read a bunch of this and I've been astonished at your openness to hearing a whole lot of "stop doing that" and "do this instead." I would have been having a tantrum, so I don't post videos of myself skiing; I'm far too sensitive. I see you posted about your distress about what life/kids/work/snow (lack of) has done to your ski season, but it was scarcely a tantrum. I think you may have had moments of defensiveness that you kept to yourself. And I have been admiring you for it.

 

[Skisailor]

I certainly didn't see a tantrum either!

I do apologize if any of my comments offended. I will speak only for myself but assume the other instructors who also took the time to watch and analyze and post, saw what I saw: an athletic motivated skier whose skiing life could take a dramatic turn for the better with a few fundamental changes. And also the concern on our part for ingraining bad habits. So the potential in there was fun to engage.

Thanks for asking for feedback and for being open to hearing the comments.

 

[newboots]

(In case I came across wrong) - I didn't find any of it offensive. Quite the opposite - the instructors put in a lot of time making clear points and engaging in helpful, constructive, useful discussion. I wanted to post kudos to FluffyKitty for posting video and being open to this commentary. Strong of character.

 

[Skier31]

I certainly didn't see a tantrum either!

I do apologize if any of my comments offended. I will speak only for myself but assume the other instructors who also took the time to watch and analyze and post, saw what I saw: an athletic motivated skier whose skiing life could take a dramatic turn for the better with a few fundamental changes. And also the concern on our part for ingraining bad habits. So the potential in there was fun to engage.

Thanks for asking for feedback and for being open to hearing the comments.

I second this. The difficult part of internet ski instruction is that we all have the ideas in our head (students and instructors). It is truly difficult to be sure that we are all on the same page. The last thing we want to do is make a situation worse. If Fluffy Kitty lived in Colorado, I would certainly ski with her.

 

[volklgirl]

Okay. Addressing the drawings, your description, and the video all in one thought.

The first drawing shows a skier "braced" on the inside ski - outside ski edged, but with all the weight and pressure actually on the inside ski. This totally jives with the word you used in your description - inclination - where the upper body is inclined to the inside of the turn, again lifting weight OFF the outside ski and increasing the edge angle, leaving you stuck in that turn and completely unable to get into position to start the next turn without doing weird things to get your center of mass (COM) where it belongs for the next turn. This is completely corroborated by the video.

No it's not just word play, either.....your words convey exactly what is happening in real life. Your prioperception seems to be in sync with your visualization. That is why my post recommended back-to-basics; you're using speed and inefficient movements to compensate for lack of a solid foundation. Heavier/ungroomed really should require a change in technique at all, although true powder does just a tiny bit.

I totally get frustrations and depressions, believe me.

You're doing just fine. Smile and have fun. Seriously. Enjoy what little time you do have out there and don't let frustration get the best of you. We all want to get better, but if you're having fun and are safe, that's all that REALLY matters. XOXOXOXO

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I'm... all verklempt now...

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Still haven't been on the snow... but keep running into these "uphill arm lift" photos... Hmmm...




But, then, of course, something closer to the Schlopy Drill:

 

[diymom]

But aren't those all boarders?

 

[liquidfeet]

Those first two photos show the uphill hand touching the snow. That's the exact opposite of an uphill arm lift. Those are snow boarders getting high angles and touching the snow with the uphill hand to show off how high their angles are. Don't try that on skis; it will put your balance on your inside ski where it shouldn't be.

The third photo does show the uphill arm/shoulder/hand lifted. That inside hand is higher off the snow than the outside hand. That's what the uphill arm/hand/shoulder/hip lift is all about. It's to help you get that inside half of your body high off the snow. When on skis, doing this helps your outside ski grip the snow; it puts your "weight" on that outside ski where it should be. This is an essential thing for making effective turns.