Uphill arm lift: good drill or bad habit?

[Fluffy Kitty]

Don't try that on skis; it will put your balance on your inside ski where it shouldn't be.

Yes, I think I finally understand that this is "inclination", and that what Ross Rebagliati is doing is "angulation". I've been using these words interchangeably.

I don't know if this is useful, but this is the best I can do for now. It's a helmet cam pointing down. (25-30 mph)

I tried lifting the inside leg, and this is the most I have been able do on a blue run; about 50% off and 50% on. (15-20 mph)

Thanks!

 

[RuthB]

I have been following your thread but have resisted the urge to add any comments since I am neither an instructor nor trained in movement analysis. And you've got some very experienced and wise people going you feedback.

But looking at your videos and reading the thread I wonder whether you are pressuring rather than weighting your outside ski. It is Sumner here so I tried to recreate your stance and turn standing in my bare feet statically rather than ski boots, but if I match your stance, knee and ankle angulation I can get good pressure without having my weight on the downhill ski, which, as Ursula so eloquently explains, you skis are fighting one another.

Forgive me if someone has already referred you to Ursula's great video, but take a look at this. The bit I am referring to is at the end but watch it all it's gold.

Good luck. I admire your dedication to this

Ok, Divas, Laura and I got something together for you all. Please remember that if you put 10 instructors together, you might have 11 different opinions in the mix.
The just under 15 minute video reflects mine.

I will be out of town for a couple of days and maybe wont have time to answer questions that I am sure will come up. (Just ask @Skisailor; she knows my answers. )

Now I will ask a favor: if you get something out of the video and maybe you learned something new, (and you didn't pay for it ), please consider a donation to GTLI.
https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/if-you-are-looking-for-a-good-cause.21189/
Ursula

Forgive me if this has already been

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Thank you for posting the video. It does clarify things a lot.

I wonder whether you are pressuring rather than weighting your outside ski

That's the working theory, but I couldn't tell you. Who knows what nutty things are going on in my cerebelum...

 

[Skisailor]

Fluffy Kitty:

When you walk, can your brain tell which leg has the weight at any given moment? Right, left, roght, left. Think of skiing the same way. It's like a slow walk down the mountain. Right , . . . Left . . . . . Right . . . . . . Left.

Cool video perspective! One thing I noticed is that your ski tips move around a lot relative to each other. That is a possible clue that your weight is too far back. Unbend your knees. Then bring your shoulders forward over your toes and see if that helps your ski tops track together better.

Also - in the drill where you lift the inside ski, don't lift the whole thing up. That definitely puts your weight back! Leave the tip on the snow and just lift the tail of the ski.

 

[marzNC]

Cool video perspective! One thing I noticed is that your ski tips move around a lot relative to each other. That is a possible clue that your weight is too far back. Unbend your knees. Then bring your shoulders forward over your toes and see if that helps your ski tops track together better.

What I was wondering about the videos using the helmet cam is where the skier is looking. If it's necessary to tilt the head down in order to keep the ski tips in the frame, then that's going to have an impact on the skiing. One of the key points that my Taos Ski Week instructor made to everyone was "chin up" and that turned out to make a big difference for all of us . . . and the group was all advanced skiers, including a L2 instructor.

 

[Skisailor]

What I was wondering about the videos using the helmet cam is where the skier is looking. If it's necessary to tilt the head down in order to keep the ski tips in the frame, then that's going to have an impact on the skiing. One of the key points that my Taos Ski Week instructor made to everyone was "chin up" and that turned out to make a big difference for all of us . . . and the group was all advanced skiers, including a L2 instructor.

Great point! I was assuming you had the camera mounted pointing down. If you were looking down, that will have a huge effect on your fore aft stance.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

If you were looking down, that will have a huge effect on your fore aft stance.

If I were staring at my feet going 30 mph, I imagine I'd be dead by now…

 

[liquidfeet]

Were you going 30 mph?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Were you going 30 mph?

At times. The first video is the first half of this:



"Leg lift" video is the middle peak:



Of course, Ski Tracks... you know... a very large grain of salt. The first one says maximum slope was 24º, which I don't believe. The second one, same trail, says 18º. For the same trail!

Hillmap says (first video; second video is the second half of this):

That is a possible clue that your weight is too far back.

Aha! OK. I'll check it out. (Of course, I might have this completely backward, too...)

The wandering skis have always been a thing with me... Every little imperfection on the snow tosses me around.

Leave the tip on the snow and just lift the tail of the ski.

That would sure make it easier. OK.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

This is from when I'm actually-supposedly going 30mph; third peak of the second Ski Tracks graph, soon after the "leg lift" video.

A bit messier.

 

[liquidfeet]

@Fluffy Kitty, you posted "The wandering skis have always been a thing with me... Every little imperfection on the snow tosses me around."

It looks like you may need a good bootfitter to check your footbeds. I think your skis are responding to your foot intermittently rolling on and off its big toe edge, aka pronating.

I forget, do you have custom footbeds in there?
And... are you actually looking down at your skis, or have you set the go pro to point down while you look ahead?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

I think your skis are responding to your foot intermittently rolling on and off its big toe edge, aka pronating.

I'll check with my boot person. I think we've done what we can, short of custom liners, which I cannot yet afford.

And... are you actually looking down at your skis, or have you set the go pro to point down while you look ahead?

The camera is pointing down. My own sight line is mostly level to the ground, mostly perpendicular to the POV of the camera.

Photography being an area where I feel I have some expertise :

Looking at the video again, I do want to point out that when the skis suddenly seem to go apart, it means the camera is getting closer to the ground, i.e., my torso is lower, hopefully more forward. You can tell because the skis become bigger and more bent as well (I did apply software fisheye correction, but it doesn't correct entirely).

The "wandering ski" show up as one ski staying in position and the other one twisting left and right.

When the skis go downward in the frame, that means my head/torso is tilting backward, likely because I am backseating or just standing up. When the skis shoot upward, that means I'm tilted more forward.

When my head (and therefore likely torso) is inclined, you can see it in the texture of the snow, and sometimes the horizon shows up in the corner when I'm really inclined, although not in these clips.

If the skis stay mostly centered in the frame during a turn, I'm probably inclining; if they go more to the edge, I'm probably angulating. If the skis are more tilted in the frame at the end of a turn, my torso is facing more down hill, and probably more angulating than inclining; if the skis stay straight up and down, the torso is following the skis and probably inclining.

The head is the most stable part of the human movement, so serves as a good image stabilizer, but the up-and-down movement is more obvious when the camera is pointing down.

 

[Powgirl]

I am no expert, so please take this with a grain of salt...but, when I look down as I'm skiing, I cannot see my boots and most of my binding...that really jumped out at me in your video!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

This is a different model (I have a cheap knock-off), but something like this. The camera can be adjusted to look forward or downward… or even toward your face, like here.



I can't look at my own feet for even a few seconds without getting into trouble. The camera has helped me figure out a few things about my own skiing. I wouldn't have known about my asymmetry that started this whole enterprise, for instance.

 

[Powgirl]

I wrote my comment when I was in a hurry...and it was kinda vague, but it seems, according to your video, that you are way behind your boots...in the backseat.

I know when that happens to me, my skis will become squirrelly...when I get forward, putting weight on the downhill ski, my skis feel and act stable.

Again, take my observation as coming from a non-expert...but thought it might be something to consider.

I am envious of your great balance, even tho you feel like you are challenged by changes in terrain!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

it seems, according to your video, that you are way behind your boots...in the backseat.

Oh, I see! Hmmm...

If you are judging that by the fact that my thighs are visible, actually, that is not the right interpretation.

This is what it looks like when I'm coasting down a cat track standing fairly upright, although you can see that my knees are bent. It may look like I'm leaning back, but this is actually what "neutral stance" looks like with a helmet-mounted super-wide-angle camera with some fisheye distortion. The groomer lines converging ahead also means the camera is not perpendicular to the ground, but is pointing forward a little. (This is the angle I have found to show the most of my movements.)



Objects closer to the camera look more dramatically angled, so I look like I am leaning way back. Objects farther from the camera look much smaller, accounting for the teeny skis and the impression that the skis are tilted away from me. As you can imagine, it would be very difficult to lean back like this and coast. My stance is in fact neutral, and, if anything, forward a little bit.

(The bit of white zipper on the bottom-center of the frame is on my left breast. More on this later.)

So, in this frame, the skis are farther forward, making you think that I am leaning further backward.



However, what's really happening is that I am leaning way forward, so the front of the head tilts downward, making the camera point behind its original location. Now the center of the frame is about even with the binding. In order to get this shot, my head has to be farther ahead of my pelvis, but tilted down. My pelvis is out of the frame, in fact, which means my head is much more forward than neutral. The skis are much larger, too, which means they are pretty close, which is consistent with the knees being pretty bent. The left knee is farther forward than in the neutral shot, which means it's pretty firmly shin-on-tongue.

Another cue is that, unlike in the first frame grab, the snow or the skis do not look like they are converging forward. This means the camera is more perpendicular to the ground, which is another clue that my head is tilted down, and my torso probably is too.

It may look like I am doing some kind of a magical skier's throne while skiing, but that's far from it. This is what it would look like if I am actually completely in the back seat, sitting like how I appear in the second framegrab. :-)



Again, the pelvis is visible. I look like I am reclining way back, but no such lift chair exists. I am reclining only a little. This is further evidence that in the neutral stance photo above, my upper body is quite a bit more forward than I would be sitting on a chair. Notice how far back the breast-zipper is from my crotch, compared to the coasting shot, where my crotch is hiding behind the coat, further evidence that I am leaning more forward in the stance shot.

Oddly, the knees look like they are ahead of the bindings, although they are obviously not. This is because the knees are above the center of the frame, and it distance forward is exaggerated, being closer, while the bindings' distance forward is shrunk, being farther away. That means the knees in the mid-turn shot, being on the bottom of the frame, are much more forward of the bindings than they appear!

I hope this makes sense. It's more intuitive to me because I've been staring at these videos a lot. Perhaps these are just too confusing and counterintuitive...

 

[liquidfeet]

I hear you that the view from this camera angle can be analyzed to reveal some things that are happening off stage. You explain that very well.

But it would be much more direct and precise and free of interpretation -- if the camera were not on your helmet, but in someone else's hand, capturing all of you, not just the fronts of your skis.

If you can convince someone to take video of you, have them stop on the side of the trail below you. Then ski downhill, keep going past them (at a distance away so they can get all of you in the camera's field of vision), and continue skiing to the bottom of the trail. Then post that video. Everyone will be able to see more directly, and without all the extra thought, just what's going on. There will be no lingering doubts as to how you are moving, and where on your skis you are balancing.

Would you be able to do that?

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Would you be able to do that?

Short answer is not for a while. Long answer is… long...

Perhaps it would be best to close this thread until I have better videos. The list of things to check out has proliferated a bit, and it may be getting to a point where a real lesson is the only solution.

So, for now, thank you, everyone, for all your input! I've learned a lot and have a lot to consider and try!

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Finally I have a decent video! The snow was uneven, and I was tired, so "not my best work", but...

Thanks!

 

[liquidfeet]

You are indeed lifting your uphill arm, and that's good. At the bottom of the run something gets you distracted and you do the opposite, lifting the downhill arm. That happens; people get confused. But for most of the run you lifted that arm!

Lifting the "new inside arm," which becomes the uphill arm once the skis point in the new direction, is a great drill. Do you know how to divide your arms and legs and skis into "inside" and "outside" instead of uphill and downhill? If you do, that's great. Think of two concentric circles, one inside the other. The inside circle represents your right ski/foot/leg and your right shoulder/arm/hand in a right turn. This drill is all about the inside half of your torso, inside hand/arm/shoulder/hip.

You can improve the benefits of lifting the inside arm if you do a drill called The Schlopy Drill. I'll describe it first, then give you a video to watch.

In a right turn, lift and stretch forward (not out to the side, as you are now doing) the right arm. If your right hand ends up hovering over the right ski's tip, that's even better. Streeeetch the right side of your body forward as you reach forward and up with that right hand/arm/shoulder. Let that reaching-forward-and-up arm pull that side of the body (shoulder and hip) forward and up.

At the same time, put your left hand on your left hip. Push that hip baaack. This is your "outside" half.

These two movements of the arms have an impact on your torso (hips to shoulders). They get the inside half of your body (right half in a right turn) lifted and forward, and the outside of the body back. This up-and-forward-ness of the inside half of the body directs the pressure to the outside ski, where it needs to be, and keeps the body from "leaning in" aka "banking."

The Schlopy drill is one of my favorites. Once the torso movement is embedded, you can delete the arms part of the drill. The whole point of the drill is to get the inside half of the torso to be higher than its outside half, and to get the torso to face the outside of the turn.

Once you can feel the torso movement happening when you do the drill, you can hold the arms bent, out front, as if you were carrying a cafeteria tray, and just do the torso movement. But that comes later.

But people get mixed up and reach forward with the wrong hand. Sometimes they do it right for the first few turns, then the timing gets messed up and they are doing it backwards. There's a way to make that pretty much impossible. No one has put up a video showing this so far, so I'll just describe it.

When you are getting ready to start a right turn, lift and reach forward with the right arm. Put the other hand on your hip. When you're done with that turn and you're going across the hill, in between turns, put that right arm back on your right hip so both hands are on your hips. Like you're mad at someone, both hands on hips.

So between turns, for a second or two, have both hands on hips.

Then reach the left hand up and out for a left turn. The other hand is already on the hip; you don't have to do anything. You can do this with slow turns on the beginner slope, all the way up to fast carved turns on blue groomers.

Here's the video without the two hands on hips between turns. Yes, this guy is going fast, but you don't have to do that. Isn't it elegant looking?