Skiers Push For Change After Accidents

[2ski2moro]

I think that problem is that there is nothing to hold people accountable. If you are driving and speeding or driving recklessly or dangerously, you get a penalty. Money, points, lose your license, whatever.

Maybe it's time for the ski patrol to go back to clipping tickets (with a stern verbal warning) on the first offense and pulling tickets on the second offense.

 

[Obrules15]

I've been thinking about the skier code "Always Ski In Control", technically I do, but I don't feel that way. I don't always feel in control when I turn into the fall line or hit an ice patch, or practice a new skill. The way I manage is that I always ski slowly (too slowly if you ask some people) so I can regain control.

So I wonder how much of the problem (out of control skiers) is that the intrinsic nature of skiing involves *feeling* like you are out of control and the ability to discern the difference between being truly out of control and (normal?) out of control doesn't work well if you are newer to skiing or a prat.

I've struggled for years with instructors and have seriously impeded my skill development because I don't like being in the fall line (because I feel out of control). I've been looking for ways to feel in control throughout the entire turn but they've generally told me that I should seek to regain contol at the end of the turn by turning uphill so I've had to accept that feeling to improve my skiing.

I'm not questioning ski instruction (or instructors) but I did want to point out that there are times when learning to ski when you will feel out of control, and in fact probably can't improve your skiing without at times feeling out of control.

New skiers who are moving from the magic carpet hill to the lift served green run for the first time are going to feel out of control even if they don't look it and I know for me if I hit an icy patch it can throw me off as well. But I don't ski fast so even when I *feel* out of control I don't particularly look like I am.

What I'm trying to say is maybe we should consider the language used in the skier code so that it more accurately reflects the difference between what we all clearly observe as unsafe skiing (flying down the hill unable to slow down, turn, or avoid hitting other people) and the feelings you get when learning new things.
I've been watching video of myself skiing and have become aware that what I look like and what it feels like are two completely different things.

I definitely don't know the answers but maybe there are things that can be looked at to improve the situation by improving definitions and getting skiers to know what they look like when they're "Out of Control".

 

[2ski2moro]

I understand what you say, OBrules15. I think everyone of us has had that feeling during our ski career and would be lying to say otherwise.

The Skiers' Code Rule #1 is "Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects."

I think there is a big difference between feeling out of control (feeling or perception) and being out of control (unable to stop or turn to avoid other people).

 

[ski diva]

I think that problem is that there is nothing to hold people accountable. If you are driving and speeding or driving recklessly or dangerously, you get a penalty. Money, points, lose your license, whatever.

Along the same line, I think it's appalling that there are people who don't stop after being involved in a collision. I've heard of this happening time and time again, and it never ceases to amaze me. Sure, there's likely to be some accountability. But someone has more than likely been injured! The fact that a person can just go on their way after that boggles the mind.

 

[2ski2moro]

Along the same line, I think it's appalling that there are people who don't stop after being involved in a collision. I've heard of this happening time and time again, and it never ceases to amaze me. Sure, there's likely to be some accountability. But someone has more than likely been injured! The fact that a person can just go on their way after that boggles the mind.

How many times do you see someone (anybody. any age, any equipment) stop and help a fallen skier pick up their sticks? And they don't stop when they hit someone? Unbelievable.

 

[Christy]

I've read some threads on Epic that have left me very confused about what a ski area's responsibility is when there is a reckless skier. Someone's kid was hit and the ski area did nothing but other people were saying that they (the ski area) didn't have to?

 

[ski diva]

I've read some threads on Epic that have left me very confused about what a ski area's responsibility is when there is a reckless skier. Someone's kid was hit and the ski area did nothing but other people were saying that they (the ski area) didn't have to?

I don't think they do. When you buy a ticket, you essentially relinquish your rights and accept all risks associated with the sport, at least as far as the resort is concerned. Some people have pursued lawsuits with skiers or boarders who've hit them, though -- like this one.

 

[bounceswoosh]

When Breck ski patrol came to the scene of my collision, they had forms ready to document witness statements - but they made it very clear that they do not render judgment.

I'm guessing they have to see something themselves. Remember the boarder mom who went viral about how she'd been attacked in the lift line? A few weeks later, more information made the story look very different.

 

[snowski/swimmouse]

I, too, know Katherine; She lives here when not skiing and we bike together. She'a beautiful skier and a phenomenal woman. I agree that it's time the resorts step in and yank tickets for those going straight down out of control when not in flat areas. Cases like hers SHOULD result in lawsuits against the individual. These kids don't realize that it can be life changing for an older person!
On a light Wednesday this season in NC a family with teenagers were skiing from midmountain. The 14ish girl was continuously out of control and I avoided her as best I could. But when she cut me off by six inches near the top, I told her at the lift that she was too close, out of control and had we collided it would have been entirely her fault. Her parents were both within earshot. The next run she appeared at first to be trying to make turns, so I mentally moved on. But the next run, she cut me off again (needlessly) and I made an effort to point her out to ski patrol, but I believe I wasted my time.... I, too, have had bones broken by an out of control boarder going backwards, in a blizzard with snow guns on and him wearing sunglasses! This has got to stop!

As said above, Okemo's Fridays are now like Saturdays : (

 

[luliski]

I've never snowboarded, but in speaking with my snowboarding nephew, and friends who both ski and snowboard, it seems that snowboarders don't see the mountain ahead (below) them as skiers do (obviously). Many snowboarders have never skied, so they're not good at anticipating a skier's line, and end up too close to skiers. Skiers do this sometimes too.

The runs I try to avoid are the ones where you have a mix of young kids with parents (usually careful and slow), intermediates (sometimes too fast for their abilities) and experts (least threatening too me). That combination requires so much concentration trying to stay out of some skiers way while making sure not to get too close to the beginners with their unpredictable patterns.

The long runs that lead to the base (e.g. Mountain Run at Squaw) can be the worst. I got hit in the ribs by a snowboard there when my daughter was a young beginner. I was making slow, careful turns behind her (trying to protect her), and a beginner snowboarder lost control and fell right into me. His legs (and board) went up in the air and his board hit my ribs. Luckily we were all ok, but if he had hit my daughter it would have been a different story.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Many snowboarders have never skied, so they're not good at anticipating a skier's line, and end up too close to skiers.

And the same is true for skiers approaching snowboarders. Especially on cat walks where snowboarders are already at a disadvantage. It took me far too long to realize that passing someone on their heel side is just plain stupid. If I have to do it, at least I'll yell "On your heel side!"


.... Breck put safety flyers in the bathroom stalls this season. One of them advises expert skiers that they still need to ski slowly in zones where multiple ability levels are at play, and that this includes the area around all lifts. Every time I see this poster, I think about the fact that most people who need this information are not experts, but people who think they are. And then I realize that of course this flyer has a better chance of being effective than a flyer that points out that statistically, even if you think you're an expert, you're not.

 

[luliski]

Snowboarding didn't even exist when I learned to ski, so I've also had to educate myself about snowboarder movement patterns and vulnerabilities. It helps to have friends who both ski and snowboard; they seem most sensitive to the challenges faced by each group.

 

[Mary Tee]

I was skiing with an acquaintance who boards earlier this year, it was the first time we'd been on the mountain together. In typical snowboard fashion, he stopped right in the middle of a run sat down to adjust something, so I skied over to him and said...don't mean to be a wise a$$ or anything, but can you tell me why you sat in the middle of the trail to do that? He looked at me in utter confusion and said (ready?) so everyone can see me and they won't run into me. Now I had the stunned look on my face and said don't you think it would be safer to stop on the side of the trail. He actually said I don't know, I'll have to try that. I have not been on the mountain with him since, so I don't know if he gave it anymore thought.

 

[ski diva]

I was skiing with an acquaintance who boards earlier this year, it was the first time we'd been on the mountain together. In typical snowboard fashion, he stopped right in the middle of a run sat down to adjust something, so I skied over to him and said...don't mean to be a wise a$$ or anything, but can you tell me why you sat in the middle of the trail to do that? He looked at me in utter confusion and said (ready?) so everyone can see me and they won't run into me. Now I had the stunned look on my face and said don't you think it would be safer to stop on the side of the trail. He actually said I don't know, I'll have to try that. I have not been on the mountain with him since, so I don't know if he gave it anymore thought.

I had a similar experience today at Okemo, but with skiers instead of boarders! I was just coming over a rise, and there were two people standing a few yards ahead, on the downward side, doing some clothing adjustments. I stopped and said, "Excuse me, but it's not really safe to stop there. You can't be seen by anyone coming over the rise." They sort of looked at me like I was from outer space. So it's not just boarders. Some people are just clueless.

 

[geargrrl]

Hmm - lots of thoughts.
-Cameras on the slopes? What, on every other tree to maybe catch someone? Might as well make body cams a requirement.
-Statistics. Many ski areas and patrols DO keep injury statistics. I'm not sure why the news report says they didn't.
-Ski Patrol duties vary from area to area, but in general are more aid focused vs ski hill cop focused. This will vary based on mountain management. Our old management used to have the patrol chase people down and pull tickets regularly.
-Make people watch a video before they can buy a ticket? Do able I suppose.
-I've been to areas where they run avalanche awareness vids on screens in the lobby, lodge and so on. Now that's an idea. Play vids that have enough cool kids and action in them that people will actually watch them.

While you can't sue a ski area, in some states you can sue the person that hit you (if it's not hit and run) for damages.

I might be a little jaded in that where I frequent rarely has crowds.
I also engage in another sport that has a injury rate, mountain biking. My husband has broken himself for the 4th? 5th? time? I've quit counting, and he has no plans to quit biking either. No one to blame but himself for engaging in an activity that has an element of risk.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to stop in the middle of the trail--as long as it's not below a rise where you can't be seen. To me the key with stopping is to stop where you'll be most visible to others.
I mean the whole trail is in play as far as what line others are skiing--some people chose to ski on the edge so stopping there could still put you in someones path.
So I still think the best bet is stop where you can be seen and hopefully avoided--up to the situation/judgement as to whether that is on the side or the middle.

 

[pinto]

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to stop in the middle of the trail--as long as it's not below a rise where you can't be seen. To me the key with stopping is to stop where you'll be most visible to others.
I mean the whole trail is in play as far as what line others are skiing--some people chose to ski on the edge so stopping there could still put you in someones path.
So I still think the best bet is stop where you can be seen and hopefully avoided--up to the situation/judgement as to whether that is on the side or the middle.

Agreed. I think it's usually probably safer to stop in the middle, because it gives people another option to avoid you. If you are on the side, there is only one way to go, and if they don't see you in time, could be bad.

 

[bounceswoosh]

A recent instructor insisted that we "close the idiot gap." That meant, if we stopped on the side of the trail, we stopped so close to the trees that it was physically impossible for someone to sneak between us and the trees. But I can imagine that stopping so close to anything might be nerve-wracking for less experienced skiers.

I also engage in another sport that has a injury rate, mountain biking. My husband has broken himself for the 4th? 5th? time? I've quit counting, and he has no plans to quit biking either. No one to blame but himself for engaging in an activity that has an element of risk.

This is an interesting comparison. I mountain bike in a very populated area where there are always tons of people, and most of them are faster than me on the uphill, some on the downhill - and on most trails, people can be riding in either direction, without enough room to pass without the downhill rider slowing down considerably.

I have never felt the same level of risk from other people mountain biking that I have skiing. Why is that? Slower max speeds, I suppose. No arbitrary directions - trails run in directions; no one's criss-crossing the trail. The ability to slow down quickly and in a straight line.

Anyway, I think there's a big difference between accepting the risk you take with your own actions, vs the risk you take because other people are careless or inattentive. Maybe just in perception. But I can't see video taking off - ticket lines are already too long as is. I'm hoping the bathroom stall flyers actually accomplish something - at least in the women's stalls (not that women are likely to be the biggest offenders), you're more or less a captive audience.

 

[EAVL]

I thought I was just being judgy lately before seeing this thread. It has been spring break (or Spring Gape as my daughter calls it) season here in CO and I have seen more craziness both during the week and on weekends each season that I ski. I was almost hit by a guy a few weeks ago flying down a blue run at Copper who was in that beginner "oh s&$!" posture and completely out of control. He came with inches of me and if I had turned at all as he passed he likely would have killed me he was going so fast! I was so glad my tiny 11 year-old daughter was far away from me and out of his path. He crashed right before taking out my friend. It was an ugly crash and my friend said his face was all bloody and she thinks he lost teeth. My question is why was he on that run in the first place?!? It happens all the time! I have been shocked when more than once I have been asked by people on the lift how to get off. They were already on! I also had some guys ask me in the American Flyer line at Copper if there were green runs off that lift. When I asked how green they were looking for, he said he and his friend had never skied before! Never! I told them there are some steep parts on those greens for brand newbies and that I didn't think they should be on there until they got the hang of it on the west side where they have easier greens. They didn't listen! I could go on and on at the stupidity I see on the regular! People don't realize they are not only putting themselves in danger, but others as well! @bounceswoosh I agree I never feel this kind of anxiety mountain biking and the trails where I live tend to be busy. Not sure what it is either, but people just seem to be more courteous and better at staying out of each other's way. I keep saying I think they should make people take a test on safety/skier code before you can buy a ticket!

 

[Christy]

I don't think they do. When you buy a ticket, you essentially relinquish your rights and accept all risks associated with the sport, at least as far as the resort is concerned. Some people have pursued lawsuits with skiers or boarders who've hit them, though -- like this one.

This seems wrong to me. It's not like, say, hiking or surfing, where there are risks but it's its nature, more or less, that you are contending with. If a ski area is providing the infrastructure and charging for access, it seems like they should also be responsible for providing as safe an experience as they can. Obviously there are limits to what they can do, but given that they do avy blasting, open and close and groom trails, making efforts to rein in reckless skiing doesn't seem too much to ask.