Skiers Push For Change After Accidents

[NewEnglandSkier]

that beginner "oh s&$!" posture

Yup, one time during Mardi Gras week at Steamboat (always attracts lots of people who have never skied or ski one week per year), I saw this guy flying down the hill in that position--I mean flying with no ability to turn. Luckily I saw him since I was on a trail that crossed the one he was on but he came bombing down yelling excuse me at everyone he went by. He really had no business being on that trail. It's just insane what people will do!

 

[elemmac]

I have never felt the same level of risk from other people mountain biking that I have skiing. Why is that? Slower max speeds, I suppose. No arbitrary directions - trails run in directions; no one's criss-crossing the trail. The ability to slow down quickly and in a straight line.

I think another factor is that if you're out of control on an mountain bike, you're not going to go far before you fall over. But on skis, it's fairly easy to be out of control but still be on your feet, barreling down the mountain.

 

[W8N2SKI]

On crowded days I've taken to skiing the edges. I've had fewer near misses skiing relatively narrow lines down the sides. The yahoos at my humble home hill tend to do their out of control (OOC) skiing/boarding in the middle of the runs. For the first time I had to resort to this tactic out west this year (Park City). I skied on a Sunday and the place was packed. Even though I stuck to double blues and blacks, the OOCs were making themselves known. It definitely increased my desire to ski more bump runs where I was often alone; so there was a silver lining for me since my goal this year was to get over "bump intimidation".

 

[Mary Tee]

I'm not a mountain biker, but it seems to me, if you're out of control on a bike you would be far more likely to hurt yourself than another biker. I am not so sure that is true of an out of control skier.

 

[tinymoose]

I really feel for these women. I got walloped by a boarder who fell behind me at a high rate of speed and then took me out like a bowling pin (I was downhill of him). It put me out of commission for two weeks, and I luckily walked away with just being shaken up and a sore back. To this day I still involuntarily flinch if I hear someone behind me (skis or boards), which is ironic b/c the guy who hit me was sliding on his back, board in the air (his board hit my back), and I couldn't hear him coming. That being said, I'm not sure how much can be done. Sure they could and probably should pull more passes for reckless skiing, but this is always going to be an inherently risky sport. That includes not only the risk of me injuring myself, but of someone else injuring me. Most of the time we just have near collisions that never happen, thankfully. I just try to do my best to avoid people who look like they're taking unnecessary risks or are out of their depth and out of control. That's not a fail safe, but it's really the only thing I feel like is truly in my control.

I really wonder how much something like videos would help. Are people really going to take them seriously? Pay attention? Especially the people who might be more likely to ski recklessly to begin with?

 

[RachelV]

On mountain bikes you generally also have to get yourself up to the top of whatever thing you want to barrel down under your own power, which is probably a bit much for people who aren't decent at mountain biking. Downhill is the exception of course, but non-beginner downhill mountain bike trails are way intimidating in a way that harder ski trails aren't.

 

[bounceswoosh]

On mountain bikes you generally also have to get yourself up to the top of whatever thing you want to barrel down under your own power, which is probably a bit much for people who aren't decent at mountain biking. Downhill is the exception of course, but non-beginner downhill mountain bike trails are way intimidating in a way that harder ski trails aren't.

Excellent point.

Yeah, I actually feel exceptionally safe riding lift-serviced trails. On cross country, you can climb around a corner and encounter someone flying downhill. On lift-serviced trails - well, everyone is going the same direction.

AND there are very few children mountain biking. Certainly not at 3 or 4. Those who are out there, are always very close to their parents. They can't get the same escape velocity (heh) that a kid on skis can get.

I still think the trail aspect is a big factor. You don't have people coming from all angles on a mountain bike trail. Crossings are well defined and narrow.

There have been surprises, of course, but I can't even remember ever hearing about a crash involving two bikes, or even a bike and a person, on trails. Despite all the hullabaloo around here with hikers wanting to ban mountain bikes from trails.

 

[Christy]

I've been run off of trails (when they came at me at high speed with no intention of slowing down) by mountain bikers. There are jerks in every sport.

Don't forget the bear-mt biker collision last year, and it sounds like that is a real issue. https://missoulian.com/news/local/r...cle_e16c5f72-1aae-59b2-8925-c80514393317.html

I get that your larger point is that these conflicts are rarer, but they aren't absent. Here in WA we don't hear about them much because my understanding is that the mt biker, horse and hiker communities have come to a good agreement about trail use. There aren't many good hiking trails that hikers and horse people like that are also open to bikers. I have been run off on one of the few that are.

 

[bounceswoosh]

There are jerks in every sport.

I get that your larger point is that these conflicts are rarer, but they aren't absent.

Certainly, on both points. The problem is that in all sports and activities, humans are involved ;-)

 

[Pequenita]

I'm not sure how things change unless they become more regulated - like you have to pass a written test to get a license to ski. And since that doesn't even happen for road bikes, which are sharing the road with highly regulated motor vehicles, I don't see skiing being regulated. All the suggestions that people are making increase costs for an industry that claims is not profitable. Additionally, resort skiers are complaining about increasing costs of a resort ski vacation. So, unless resort skiers are willing to put up with more regulation and/or higher lift/pass prices (or buy into private ski resorts) to accommodate the perceived remedy, it comes down to accepting or balancing the risks of potentially being on a slope with someone who could end your season.

 

[snowski/swimmouse]

Particularly with older skiers, it's not just a matter of "someone who could end your season". It can be a matter of "ending your ability to walk" ever again or worse!

 

[Christy]

All the suggestions that people are making increase costs for an industry that claims is not profitable.

It seems like resorts could do more with the staff (like mountain hosts) they already have. Of course they aren't going to catch everyone who is skiing recklessly, but even just having a little more enforcement might make a difference. There was a thread recently on epic where a young guy was complaining about being cited by a yellow jacket at a CO resort, and how unfair it was and he would never go back. That sounds exactly like the outcome we'd want! Especially if he tells his friends about how "unfair" this resort is, and they decide to go elsewhere too. Even if only some resorts started to patrol more, and got a reputation for being stringent--people could then choose to go to that resort.

And it seems like some resorts/companies must be profitable. If there were no profits to be made no one would be in the biz.

 

[snowski/swimmouse]

It seems like resorts could do more with the staff (like mountain hosts) they already have. Of course they aren't going to catch everyone who is skiing recklessly, but even just having a little more enforcement might make a difference. There was a thread recently on epic where a young guy was complaining about being cited by a yellow jacket at a CO resort, and how unfair it was and he would never go back. That sounds exactly like the outcome we'd want! Especially if he tells his friends about how "unfair" this resort is, and they decide to go elsewhere too. Even if only some resorts started to patrol more, and got a reputation for being stringent--people could then choose to go to that resort.

And it seems like some resorts/companies must be profitable. If there were no profits to be made no one would be in the biz.

Well said!!! Thanks!

 

[pinto]

I thought I was just being judgy lately before seeing this thread. It has been spring break (or Spring Gape as my daughter calls it) season here in CO and I have seen more craziness both during the week and on weekends each season that I ski. I was almost hit by a guy a few weeks ago flying down a blue run at Copper who was in that beginner "oh s&$!" posture and completely out of control. He came with inches of me and if I had turned at all as he passed he likely would have killed me he was going so fast! I was so glad my tiny 11 year-old daughter was far away from me and out of his path. He crashed right before taking out my friend. It was an ugly crash and my friend said his face was all bloody and she thinks he lost teeth. My question is why was he on that run in the first place?!? It happens all the time! I have been shocked when more than once I have been asked by people on the lift how to get off. They were already on! I also had some guys ask me in the American Flyer line at Copper if there were green runs off that lift. When I asked how green they were looking for, he said he and his friend had never skied before! Never! I told them there are some steep parts on those greens for brand newbies and that I didn't think they should be on there until they got the hang of it on the west side where they have easier greens. They didn't listen! I could go on and on at the stupidity I see on the regular!...

Unfortunately, I think much of this is caused by the high price of lessons. Skiing is $$ enough as it is, when you are just starting out especially. I'm sure a lot of people take a look at the clothes and gear and then think, "Crap, another hundred plus on top of that for lessons? I'll just figure it out on my own." Like you can do for a lot of things, most sports, in fact. (Of course, I just read something the other day about some guy trying to fly a plane w/o lessons...)

 

[bounceswoosh]

(Of course, I just read something the other day about some guy trying to fly a plane w/o lessons...)

Pretty sure that's flat-out illegal.

Ski school does a really good job of emphasizing safety. You're right; it would be nice if everyone could afford it.

I was going to say that a lot of places have "affordable" beginner lessons with rentals, ticket, and lunch included - but I don't even see anything like that on the Loveland site! Bah!

 

[Pequenita]

Unfortunately, I think much of this is caused by the high price of lessons. Skiing is $$ enough as it is, when you are just starting out especially. I'm sure a lot of people take a look at the clothes and gear and then think, "Crap, another hundred plus on top of that for lessons? I'll just figure it out on my own." Like you can do for a lot of things, most sports, in fact. (Of course, I just read something the other day about some guy trying to fly a plane w/o lessons...)

Indeed. I took 1 lesson between ages 7 and 16, and I was free-skiing with friends on a weekly basis. I'm pretty sure that at some point in that time, I should have been yanked off the hill. It didn't occur to me or my non-skiing parents that you'd actually need lessons after the first one (which is faulty logic if you think about how many instrument lessons I've taken in my life).

 

[Powgirl]

It seems like resorts could do more with the staff (like mountain hosts) they already have. Of course they aren't going to catch everyone who is skiing recklessly, but even just having a little more enforcement might make a difference. There was a thread recently on epic where a young guy was complaining about being cited by a yellow jacket at a CO resort, and how unfair it was and he would never go back. That sounds exactly like the outcome we'd want! Especially if he tells his friends about how "unfair" this resort is, and they decide to go elsewhere too. Even if only some resorts started to patrol more, and got a reputation for being stringent--people could then choose to go to that resort.

And it seems like some resorts/companies must be profitable. If there were no profits to be made no one would be in the biz.

I absolutely think the resorts could do more...last year at Keystone, I skied over and complained to patrol after I got slammed into for the second time...they just kind of looked at me, said thank you...that was it...I'm not overly anxious to return to Keystone, which is a real shame as I love the mountain! But there was too much reckless behavior for my liking...

I sometimes get the feeling the resorts don't want to alienate one of their present and future target markets...young boarders/skiers, so they don't offer much presence and turn the other way when they see reckless stuff.

I would love to hear a patrollers viewpoint on this...

Regardless, we are skiing during the week and visiting resorts that have an overall more respectful and safer culture.

 

[bounceswoosh]

It didn't occur to me or my non-skiing parents that you'd actually need lessons after the first one (which is faulty logic if you think about how many instrument lessons I've taken in my life).

I hear this all the time. "You take lessons? I thought you were a good skier." No one stops to think of how exactly one becomes good at skiing ...

And I can't even fault them, because I took only a handful of lessons before I moved to Colorado. A beginner lesson at Roundtop or Liberty; a lesson in Vail on a trip some time; and I was fortunate enough to get college credit for a week of half-day lessons at Sunday River.

After a several-year hiatus from skiing and after getting frustrated by how little fun I was having, I finally took a lesson - probably a level 6 lesson. And all of a sudden, skiing was fun again! My lesson-taking snowballed from there.

But anyway, I really think smart ski resorts should provide affordable beginner lesson packages that include an emphasis on safe behavior. Maybe even up through level 4. That should catch people who have already started skiing and don't consider themselves beginners anymore.

 

[Christy]

I love what Snoqualmie does (and Snoqualmie is 45 minutes from downtown Seattle and even closer to the burbs, so they get a lot of traffic and by far the most clueless people). This is $169 (it was $99 10 years ago when I did it):

Includes:

• Three beginner group lessons
• Two BEGINNER lift tickets (for visits 1 & 2)
• One all-mountain lift ticket (for visit 3)
• Rental equipment package for each visit (skis/boots or snowboard/boots)

Visit One: "Red and Yellow Level" - Slide down the hill with confidence and a grin on your face, with skills to help you negotiate the Magic Carpet.

• Check-in at First Class desk at Summit West. Located next to Guest Services on the first floor of the Guest Services & Rentals Lodge
• Multiple lesson start times when you register online
• 2.5hr lesson experience

Visit Two: "Yellow Level and beyond" - Increase your skills and confidence on our beginner terrain.

• Check-in at the First Class desk at Summit West
• Lesson start times: 9:30am, 11:15am and 1:45pm (check availability when you reserve online)
• 1.75hr lesson experience

Visit Three: "Green Level" - Take your new found skills and passion to the Green runs and Lifts.

• Check-in at the First Class desk at Summit West
• Lesson start times: 9:30am, 11:15am and 1:45pm (check availability when you reserve online)
• 1.75hr lesson experience

Then, when you "graduate", for an extra $249, you get a season pass (for the remainder of the season), a rental equipment season pass, plus discounts on additional lessons and in the retail shop.

Now, how much they emphasize safety, I can't remember. But what an excellent opportunity to do so. That could be part of "graduation"--they could make sure the person knows what the responsibility code is, for example.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I love what Snoqualmie does (and Snoqualmie is 45 minutes from downtown Seattle and even closer to the burbs, so they get a lot of traffic and by far the most clueless people). This is $169 (it was $99 10 years ago when I did it):

Includes:

• Three beginner group lessons
• Two BEGINNER lift tickets (for visits 1 & 2)
• One all-mountain lift ticket (for visit 3)
• Rental equipment package for each visit (skis/boots or snowboard/boots)

Visit One: "Red and Yellow Level" - Slide down the hill with confidence and a grin on your face, with skills to help you negotiate the Magic Carpet.

• Check-in at First Class desk at Summit West. Located next to Guest Services on the first floor of the Guest Services & Rentals Lodge
• Multiple lesson start times when you register online
• 2.5hr lesson experience

Visit Two: "Yellow Level and beyond" - Increase your skills and confidence on our beginner terrain.

• Check-in at the First Class desk at Summit West
• Lesson start times: 9:30am, 11:15am and 1:45pm (check availability when you reserve online)
• 1.75hr lesson experience

Visit Three: "Green Level" - Take your new found skills and passion to the Green runs and Lifts.

• Check-in at the First Class desk at Summit West
• Lesson start times: 9:30am, 11:15am and 1:45pm (check availability when you reserve online)
• 1.75hr lesson experience

Then, when you "graduate", for an extra $249, you get a season pass (for the remainder of the season), a rental equipment season pass, plus discounts on additional lessons and in the retail shop.

Now, how much they emphasize safety, I can't remember. But what an excellent opportunity to do so. That could be part of "graduation"--they could make sure the person knows what the responsibility code is, for example.

That's fantastic!