Determining lesson levels

[W8N2SKI]

It's just a guide to try to help students classify themselves. Wrong classifications still happen that's for sure.

I've often found that women tend to underrate themselves and men to overrate themselves (this isn't unique to skiing, btw). I've done this myself. I've been conservative in classifying myself and then ended up in a group of guys who've all inflated their abilities. In one instance I suffered through it and ended up learning very little. In another, I was fortunate and the instructor was able to contact his colleague and switch me to another group. All in all, though, these experiences have pushed me to opt for private and semi-private. The added expense, which can be considerable, winds up being worth it.

 

[Jilly]

Talking about top cert instructors.....Glen Eden, Milton, Ontario...just west of Toronto...has more CSIA IV's per vertical foot than anywhere else.

In Canada, I would look for a level 3 CSIA that has a lot experience. Some will remember Mountainxtc from here. She is a 3, but a great instructor. I've been working with the Summit Club at Tremblant the last few years. A lot of instructors there are their top CSIA 3's. I've also had sessions with CSIA 4's that didn't go as well. I'll take a lesson from Pierre Mondor (CSIA3) over Roch Newberry (CSIA 4, examiner) any day!

CSIA promotes a national program for levels. But a lot of snow schools are doing their own thing. I usually ask, where do ski, what do like to ski, where are you heading in your progression.

 

[marzNC]

I've often found that women tend to underrate themselves and men to overrate themselves (this isn't unique to skiing, btw). I've done this myself. I've been conservative in classifying myself and then ended up in a group of guys who've all inflated their abilities. In one instance I suffered through it and ended up learning very little. In another, I was fortunate and the instructor was able to contact his colleague and switch me to another group. All in all, though, these experiences have pushed me to opt for private and semi-private. The added expense, which can be considerable, winds up being worth it.

Agree that spending a little more for lessons out west is worth it. For recent trips out west, I've found a semi-private with a friend or two gets me the most bang for my buck at destination resorts. Even more so once I was comfortable going off-piste for most of a 2-hr lesson.

What I tend to do at Alta is schedule for a 2-hour lesson, with the option on some days to extend for another 30 or 60 minutes. Have a favorite instructor (recommendation from my local boot fitter, happens to live in NC), plus a list of other very experienced Level 3 instructors from the year my normal coach was injured. Took a while to find ski buddies willing to do lessons with me, but well worth it now. Meaning I skied with those friends for a while before asking them about doing a semi-private lesson.

At Bridger, the cost of a lesson is a bargain. So I go for a 2-hour private early in the trip whenever I'm going to ski Big Sky.

At the same time, I can learn a lot doing a Silver Clinic with Walter (Level 3) at Massanutten when there is another student who not as good. Of course, since the price is only $40 for 2 hours and the terrain is so limited, I don't mind spending all the time on blue groomers working on basic drills. One time we ended up on a green (Geronimo) before the other skier finally got the point of a drill. However, that's also when Walter noticed something in my skiing that led to an "aha" moment. Helped me figure out why my turns in one direction were so much better than the other. That was either the second or third season I was working with Walter regularly.

 

[marzNC]

Wow. Can't imagine .... Very different in Tahoe ...

Yep, very different situation for terrain and lessons in the Rockies, PacNW, or any big destination resorts compared to skiing in the flatlands of the southeast, Mid-Atlantic, or midwest. However, just because a ski area is small does not necessarily mean the ski school is too small for advanced skiers to gain from taking lessons. For locals, multi-week programs can be very effective for those willing to practice before heading out to big mountains.

Even the northeast has plenty of tiny hills (<150 acres). That's where a lot of kids learn to ski because they are affordable for families. A 4-5 year old does not need >500 acres to have a great time learning to ski. These days, my impression is that more ski hills are working hard to encourage first-time adults to start with a beginner lesson. Preferably with a beginner series of 3-5 lessons. Quite a few package deals where a season pass or a pair of skis are the perk for someone who completes the package.

I think it's funny that many people who haven't skied in MT think Bridger is "small" because it's non-profit and doesn't charge $100 for a day ticket. Bridger has about 2000 acres. But compared to Big Sky, that's not large.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

I've often found that women tend to underrate themselves and men to overrate themselves (this isn't unique to skiing, btw). I've done this myself. I've been conservative in classifying myself and then ended up in a group of guys who've all inflated their abilities. In one instance I suffered through it and ended up learning very little. In another, I was fortunate and the instructor was able to contact his colleague and switch me to another group. All in all, though, these experiences have pushed me to opt for private and semi-private. The added expense, which can be considerable, winds up being worth it.

I try to take lessons during the and this is how I usually end up with a private a group price cause I'm the only one .

I took a private in Canada last January and she was amazing. I think she was a level 1, maybe a 2. Don't remember. I do remember what she taught me and what a great lesson it was.

I do agree about women generally tending to underrate themselves and guys overrating.

 

[W8N2SKI]

However, just because a ski area is small does not necessarily mean the ski school is too small for advanced skiers to gain from taking lessons.

Agreed. I may be biased, being a Massanutten passholder myself, but both the ski school and the ski team at our humble little hill have an excellent regional reputation. As @marzNC noted, there are 4 L3 instructors and several L2's who are working on their L3's. Several kids from the ski team have gone on to ski on scholarship in the northeast and west. There is also a very active adaptive ski program. A commitment to excellence can help make up for a lack of acreage. Hopefully, our acreage will be expanding in the near future - water rights have been obtained and there are plans to develop several new slopes. We'll never be a biggie, but having all that the resort offers (in all 4 seasons) w/in 2.25 hours of DC is a godsend.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

So what do you all think is an ideal-ish ratio between time in lessons vs. time in drills vs. time just skiing, to consolidate what you learned? Do your skills deteriorate away from lessons and drills? Do they become more natural? I'd like to hear from instructors, especially, whether they prefer their students to stay with them for the whole week, or go off on their own for a couple of days or whatever, whether "letting loose" increases or decreases confidence, etc.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I've often found that women tend to underrate themselves and men to overrate themselves (this isn't unique to skiing, btw).

This is a true-ism and I think a major driver for women-specific clinics and lesson programs.

It's also true that women *tend* to stay more within their comfort zone so that they have very strong skills but choose not to progress into terrain that challenges them, while men *tend* to push their skills into terrain that is a bit beyond them. A Conversation With Fear identifies these two types. But it's a spectrum and a tendency, not a universal - my husband is a very strong skier but stays well within his bounds. I am a strong skier, not as strong as him, but I like to push my boundaries with terrain.

 

[santacruz skier]

@bounceswoosh that's interesting. Also, in my case being an older woman with bone density issues, I'm a bit afraid of getting hurt, not falling, but seriously breaking bones. My BF, a couple years older and a strong skier, doesn't think about things like that. Okay, back to determining lesson levels - I almost took a lesson last year @ Northstar when skiing solo for a few days, but a 3 hr lesson was like $300 or more. But I love that the divas who ski the northeast can get lessons as cheap as $40 from certified instructors. That is great to hear and I'm glad to hear the positive responses from those who ski at smaller mountains. We don't that in California.. or not that I know of.

 

[bounceswoosh]

@bounceswoosh that's interesting. Also, in my case being an older woman with bone density issues, I'm a bit afraid of getting hurt, not falling, but seriously breaking bones. My BF, a couple years older and a strong skier, doesn't think about things like that. Okay, back to determining lesson levels - I almost took a lesson last year @ Northstar when skiing solo for a few days, but a 3 hr lesson was like $300 or more. But I love that the divas who ski the northeast can get lessons as cheap as $40 from certified instructors. That is great to hear and I'm glad to hear the positive responses from those who ski at smaller mountains. We don't that in California.. or not that I know of.

I took a lesson at Beaver Mountain "Ski the Beav!" near Logan, Utah 15 years ago or so. $55 for an hour of private lesson! No idea of their certs. You can choose anything from 1-5 hours.

https://www.skithebeav.com/c/mountain/lessons/private-lessons

There might be a smaller ski resort you just haven't checked out yet?

 

[santacruz skier]

I took a lesson at Beaver Mountain "Ski the Beav!" near Logan, Utah 15 years ago or so. $55 for an hour of private lesson! No idea of their certs. You can choose anything from 1-5 hours.

https://www.skithebeav.com/c/mountain/lessons/private-lessons

There might be a smaller ski resort you just haven't checked out yet?

Beaver Mountain has great lesson prices plus 800+ acres!
So I forgot about a small resort in Tahoe. Soda Springs resort (200 acres) is next to Boreal Ridge near Truckee. Soda Springs has private lessons for $89 hour. Think local high school teams practice there. I don't know of anybody who skis there and never even think about it. Funny thing is the first time I ever skied (when I was about 16) was at Soda Springs. It was the only time I skied until in my mid 20's. It is right off Highway 80 and you can see it driving up to Tahoe. So that would be the smallest resort in Tahoe.

 

[VickiK]

Like @santacruz skier , I'm an older woman with bone density issues, so I'm a bit afraid of doing damage to myself. Being heavy and out of shape feeds that concern, so I'm working on that. My BF is a few years younger and like, santa's BF, is a strong skier. He's cautious too, because of previous back & knee issues. He seems happy to hang out and ski with me, but at the end of MY day, he's off to rip a few runs on his own.

 

[SallyCat]

Even the northeast has plenty of tiny hills (<150 acres). That's where a lot of kids learn to ski because they are affordable for families. A 4-5 year old does not need >500 acres to have a great time learning to ski.

A 40-something skier who is trying to build skills doesn't need a huge resort, either. I've been toying with the idea lately of moving to Vermont, more for family than ski reasons. Paradoxically though, moving to this east-coast skiers' paradise would drastically reduce the amount of time I'd spend on snow, because there's no night skiing. The milder climate in the mid-Atlantic makes night skiing tolerable, and it's widely available. I quite enjoy it, actually. In PA, if I leave campus after my last class of the day, I can easily get in five hours of skiing on weeknight evenings. Or I can catch the first chair on weekends, retire to the lodge to rest and grade papers during the afternoon rush, then ski into the evening as the crowds thin.

Maybe I'll become more geographically restless as I gain skill and experience, but for now, skiing is skiing, and I enjoy the quantity if not the quality of Pocono skiing. Plus, constantly dodging out-of-control teenage "meat torpedoes" keeps you sharp.

 

[nopoleskier]

I'll add IMHO women's lessons tend to go very well, Women Clinics are a blast (to teach) and to be in. I find we women will share our thoughts, feelings and help each other offering suggestions or other ways to look at tasks. (just like on this forum) I agree, Men tend to 'over amp' it all and can sometimes "muscle" thru a task but not really be good at it. I find most Women have finesse or can learn it and IMHO learn faster and learn to ski w/ease instead of the man way of just muscle it...

In co-ed lessons I'll find women may wait until the lesson ends to ask a question because they didn't want to ask in front of the guys.

I'm sure most of the lady instructors on here get repeat women clients because of our nature of sharing and it's just fun to be with a class full of women!

The question of ski time/Drill time. it all depends.. Everyone has a 'bad' day. Some days free skiing is best and 'follow the leader" doing tight turns or GS turns or following thru powder can be better than just using a short part of a trail to do drills over and over.

My home Mt is only open on weekends and holidays. I do get students that I teach every weekend or every day during holiday weeks so we can make some great progress. Usually if a student has a particular problem (dropping an arm, in the back seat etc) once the problem is identified the instructor should be able to give you tasks to help eliminate the bad habit and reinforce the correct method. PSIA makes 'skier tip cards' showing photos of the different aspects of skiing, I use them and mark them up w/reminders for my students to pull out and look at if they suddenly have reverted back to a bad habit.

Skiing well takes practice, it is muscle memory to a large degree. The Fear factor is the greatest thing to overcome especially knowing we have to go to work on Monday. I work a lot on confidence and like I said before, learning how to ski in control is paramount to my lessons. Anyone can go fast but they also can get really hurt. I'd rather ski at a snails pace w/someone then have them try and keep up and risk them getting hurt.

That said I can't WAIT To ski.. the humidity is High, the temps are high I can't wait for 28 and sunny and powder!

 

[marzNC]

@bounceswoosh that's interesting. Also, in my case being an older woman with bone density issues, I'm a bit afraid of getting hurt, not falling, but seriously breaking bones. My BF, a couple years older and a strong skier, doesn't think about things like that. Okay, back to determining lesson levels - I almost took a lesson last year @ Northstar when skiing solo for a few days, but a 3 hr lesson was like $300 or more. But I love that the divas who ski the northeast can get lessons as cheap as $40 from certified instructors. That is great to hear and I'm glad to hear the positive responses from those who ski at smaller mountains. We don't that in California.. or not that I know of.

Just to be clear, if the $40 you referenced is based on what I said about the 2-hr Silver Clinic at Massanutten, that's definitely an outlier. Massanutten is a 4-season timeshare resort. Skiing is simply one of the major amenities, so ski school does not have to be a profit center. (Also not in the northeast.)

The 1-day Ladies' Clinic at Elk in eastern PA is pretty reasonable at $100, which includes lift ticket, hot lunch, a morning lesson, afternoon time with an instructor, and social hour aprés ski.

Walter wanted to create the Silver Clinic (over 50) a while back and his boss was flexible enough to let him do it. Available 1:00-3:00 Thursdays and Sundays. If no one shows up, then Walter is available for other group lessons that afternoon. If Walter is not available, one of the other experienced instructor takes over if necessary.

What's nice about semi-private lessons is that the cost per skier is much more reasonable per hour. Some places add a few dollars for adding a student. But at Jackson Hole, it's the same price for 1, 2, and up to 5 skiers. Main reason I talked both of my ski buddies for that trip into a lesson for the first time. At Alta, when I do a lesson with my ski buddy Bill, it comes out about $150 for each of us for 2 hours, including tip. I figure that's $75/hour. Seems reasonable when compared to private music lessons or personal training. I usually do one lesson towards the beginning of a trip. Adding a third hour adds about $60 each for the extra hour.

Of course, the Taos Ski Week is a serious deal. $150 for 2 hours in the morning for 6 days in a row, with the same instructor. If I hadn't found great ski buddies, I would probably be doing the Alta Advanced Workshop every so often. $85 for 2.5 hours off-trail following an experienced instructor to the best snow of the day. Although it's not a lesson, can ask the instructor for a few tips. Alta has a lot of Level 3 instructors with 10+ years of experience.

 

[Jilly]

When I was teaching it was a weekly program at the local bump. Ladies night was Wednesday night for 2 hours. I would work on drills, but I also let them ski to incorporate those drills into actual skiing. Instructors need to balance this. We don't ski drills, but without learning drill, we don't ski well.

 

[Pequenita]

To echo @nopoleskier, probably the best learning environment was where I was in a very large women's camp that had everyone first self identify her approximate level, from which we all did a ski-off and split up into 6 more groups. I wound up with 3 other women and we were all very evenly matched ability-wise, and age, coincidentally. Who knows whether we actually were all the level we said we were - it was more important for that small a group that we were roughly the same ability

 

[Skier31]

So what do you all think is an ideal-ish ratio between time in lessons vs. time in drills vs. time just skiing, to consolidate what you learned? Do your skills deteriorate away from lessons and drills? Do they become more natural? I'd like to hear from instructors, especially, whether they prefer their students to stay with them for the whole week, or go off on their own for a couple of days or whatever, whether "letting loose" increases or decreases confidence, etc.

I can't say there is an ideal ratio. The purpose of a drill is to create new movement patterns and incorporate the new movement patterns into skiing followed by continuing to use the new movement patterns in steeper conditions, crappy snow etc. We all revert to old patterns and it takes alot of "perfect practice" to own the new patterns. Yes, sometimes there are aha moments which are great but the more advanced, the more subtle the movements are. This takes time and I also believe it is better when you have someone watching you.

An all day lesson should be much more skiing than drills. However, the best part is that you have an instructor to point out exactly what you are doing. So many times, people think they are doing one thing but they are not.

I am a huge fan of video. If you can see what you are doing, it is so much easier to change.

I am not a fan of one or two hour lessons. Not enough time for observed practice.

 

[Jilly]

But skier31 - 2 hours on a 190' vertical it's OK. I mean you're only doing 5 turns on the front face at Batawa.

I loved the "Roxy" ladies snow camp at Whistler (now Arcteryx). As Pequenita stated above, we did the same thing. You decided where you should be based on their description. A large group then did a ski off with probably 5 instructors. We then ended up with smaller groups of 6 for 2 days, but much better matched. I've had group lessons with the Summit club where I'm the top end of the group. The instructors are pretty good about it and tailor things.

 

[bounceswoosh]

I think the common theme here is : "If you can get in a group that is well matched, you're going to love it." Ski offs are more common in multi-day events and seem to really help.

A few of my friends did JH's Steep And Deep last season and came away with interesting stories. The first thing they do is a ski off. I was hoping to do it next season, but of course that's been derailed. Ah well. Something to look forward to in the future!