Boot flex/construction question, for instructors and gear people

[bounceswoosh]

I was not knowledgeable enough when I got these to have any idea about what was working or not

Also, I'm not sure if I'm knowledgeable enough to do so now ..

 

[Gloria]

Sigh. The foot and calf fit is perfect. I have wrap-around intuition liners. I was not knowledgeable enough when I got these to have any idea about what was working or not - the better fit def gave me better control over skis, I remember that. But it's not like I probably had great technique four or five years ago, before all the lessons, that would have gone south.

You know if you aren't needing a really stiff flex you could always try a rental boot for as long as you could stand it to see it the different shell made a difference? What size plug do you have in the back? I had on numerous occasions tried the one that was suppose to make it more stiff and then really did not like the boot. I know when DD was much younger/smaller she had a different pair that I don't even think she skied with the plugs in as she wasn't flexing a boot that well at that time. You can also mess with the different sized plugs for the back flex to, at that point she was using the fatter one in the back. I still have 2 pairs of old shells and all the old parts in the garage if you need any. Playing with those different options might reveal something new too. The other thing about those boots is the tiny toe box, it sometimes makes a huge difference to be able to spread your toes out, especially for balance. I just switched from a pair of booties ( neoprene ) actually that was really tight in the toes to a pair with a fully seperated toe and larger area for the others and it was amazing how much more I could accomplish. Crazy difference. As far as fit, even if you end up liking the other shell better, dalbello does make some really nice boots in that style of shell as well.

Another thought...the plastic that lies over the shell has different flex levels too. I am pretty sure I still have a pair of lotus' in the garage with the softer tongue that should change right out with the one you have now. Happy to send it to you if you want to see if that might make a difference.

 

[bounceswoosh]

You know if you aren't needing a really stiff flex you could always try a rental boot for as long as you could stand it to see it the different shell made a difference? What size plug do you have in the back? I had on numerous occasions tried the one that was suppose to make it more stiff and then really did not like the boot. I know when DD was much younger/smaller she had a different pair that I don't even think she skied with the plugs in as she wasn't flexing a boot that well at that time. You can also mess with the different sized plugs for the back flex to, at that point she was using the fatter one in the back. I still have 2 pairs of old shells and all the old parts in the garage if you need any. Playing with those different options might reveal something new too. The other thing about those boots is the tiny toe box, it sometimes makes a huge difference to be able to spread your toes out, especially for balance. I just switched from a pair of booties ( neoprene ) actually that was really tight in the toes to a pair with a fully seperated toe and larger area for the others and it was amazing how much more I could accomplish. Crazy difference. As far as fit, even if you end up liking the other shell better, dalbello does make some really nice boots in that style of shell as well.

Hmm. Despite my wide foot, I have plenty of room in this boot - bootfitter magic, I guess. I don't have any spoilers in the back; just liner and shell. Yeah, maybe I can do a Dalbello with a four buckle construction. I seem to recall they put me in this boot because it was the only one low enough to fit my calf that would also work with my foot - however, that was 4-5 years ago. There may be more options now? I hope?

Since Larry did such a great job the first time around, I am going to describe my concerns and trust in him to figure it out, or tell me if I need to compromise. I made sure he would be working the day of my appointment.

@Gloria - do you think that if I struggle with this boot, should I be looking for a very soft flex? Or maybe it's just something about this boot that makes the flex behave differently? Can I read anything into my need for flex from my experiences in this boot?

 

[Gloria]

My experience leads me to believe its more of a preference as to how the flex feels and responds. I don't think one is harder than the other to flex with the exception that maybe different technical styles may make one easier than the other, if that makes sense. Try both on in the store, I think you'll be surprised at how much more you will be able to tell from just that then you could 5 years ago.
As for softer flex, I don't know for sure. The different plastics etc all change how the boot flexes in addition to the fact that an 80 in one brand can be way different than another. The clear plastics have a tendency to be softer too so try all ranges on. Something will feel just right.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

This is an interesting thread re: the feel of the flex in the 3 buckle boots. I had a fitter put me in a Dalbello Chakra 3 buckle boot a couple seasons ago and it seemed ok in the shop but once I got on skis, I felt "stuck" like I couldn't flex them or something. Almost like I felt like if I wasn't watchful I would lose my balance and fall backward. (needless to say they didn't work out for me for me--other reasons too). Anyway once I was back in a 4 buckle I felt so much more comfortable.
I had never realized how different the 3 and 4 buckle can feel, which is good since everyone is built differently so what works for one won't work for another.

 

[snow addict]

My AT boots have 3 buckles and plug-type tongues, definitely feel very stiff. It's not even stiffness as such but lack of progression in the flex. I just take the tongues out and boots ski much better - they are plenty stiff even without inserted tongues.

 

[klar]

So, some questions. Do you think that Dirk's concerns about the boot not being easy to flex might be valid? Do you think it could be stiffening up (although I've never been flexing my ankles, even when these were new)? Does my ability to create the flexion prove that it's not the boot, or is there an in between where you *can* create it, but it's more work than it should be? Also, it was pretty warm today, and it could be a lot harder tomorrow when the high is 15 instead of 30 ...

Sorry for the late reply. I missed the little red thing telling me I was tagged here.

Yes, I think Dirk's concerns may be valid. I see a lot of people in way to upright boots, it's really bad with rental gear but even with their own boots folks like to buy something that is primarily comfortable. As you suggest, upright boots are better for standing around than boots with a pronounced forward lean. However, you are not doing yourself any favours in terms of skiing. Even for beginners and not very advanced intermediates IMO a boot with an actual, noticeable forward lean is preferable to a really upright boot because it helps getting them out of the backseat or prevents them getting too far into it. This is also a classic with women's boots, you know, because women don't really ski, it's more important they be comfortable at the aprés bar. I have developed a habit of constantly leaning into the forward lean of my boots and sort of resting my shins on the shaft if that makes sense, even and especially when standing around or riding t-bars. It's quite comfortable because I don't have to hold myself up ;)

I would be surprised if the boots were stiffening with age but who knows, maybe something like what SaraJ said.

If you can "force" the flex when you concentrate I would say it's partly the boot and partly other factors. You should not need to be forcing much but I don't know how you ski so if you've never really used your ankles much it could be you're just not used to it.

On the three part construction: I use a boot like that for touring and they do flex differently than normal ones but I would not say they are stiffer per se. It feels like the flex is more gradual and offers the same resistance during the entire process of bending the boot. With normal boots you often hit a point where you just can't flex further so you "know" when you've really flexed the boot. Before hitting that point the boots are comparatively easy to flex. With the three part construction you don't have that definite feedback and you have to work more at the beginning of the flexing movement.

I tell my skischool kids to imagine they have a banana between their shin and the tongue of the boot and they need to squish the banana....

 

[klar]

My AT boots have 3 buckles and plug-type tongues, definitely feel very stiff. It's not even stiffness as such but lack of progression in the flex.

That's what I mean, although I would call it a more regular progression in the flex.

This is an interesting thread re: the feel of the flex in the 3 buckle boots. I had a fitter put me in a Dalbello Chakra 3 buckle boot a couple seasons ago and it seemed ok in the shop but once I got on skis, I felt "stuck" like I couldn't flex them or something. Almost like I felt like if I wasn't watchful I would lose my balance and fall backward. (needless to say they didn't work out for me for me--other reasons too). Anyway once I was back in a 4 buckle I felt so much more comfortable.
I had never realized how different the 3 and 4 buckle can feel, which is good since everyone is built differently so what works for one won't work for another.

I don't think it has anything to do with the number of buckles, it's the three part construction of bottom shell, shaft and tongue, where the stiffness comes mainly from the tongue.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Soo ... I just bought a new pair of boots. tecnica mach1 95. *fingers crossed*

 

[Jilly]

Wow!!!

 

[Jenny]

That was quick!

 

[bounceswoosh]

I don't dilly dally!

 

[litterbug]

Yes, I think Dirk's concerns may be valid. I see a lot of people in way to upright boots, it's really bad with rental gear but even with their own boots folks like to buy something that is primarily comfortable. As you suggest, upright boots are better for standing around than boots with a pronounced forward lean. However, you are not doing yourself any favours in terms of skiing. Even for beginners and not very advanced intermediates IMO a boot with an actual, noticeable forward lean is preferable to a really upright boot because it helps getting them out of the backseat or prevents them getting too far into it. This is also a classic with women's boots, you know, because women don't really ski, it's more important they be comfortable at the aprés bar. I have developed a habit of constantly leaning into the forward lean of my boots and sort of resting my shins on the shaft if that makes sense, even and especially when standing around or riding t-bars. It's quite comfortable because I don't have to hold myself up ;)

I just have to point out that your observations about an upright boot being about comfort and forward flex getting a skier out of the back seat are completely false for many women skiers.

I started with boots with a moderate forward lean, and they put me in an agonizingly back seat position while skiing as well as causing incredible thigh burn when I was standing still (and the resultant gigantic quads by the end of the season). I constantly struggled to get my weight centered on my ski and never felt in balance. No amount or type of boot tweaking gave me any kind of relief at all.

Finally I went to an expert bootfitter, and after examining me and asking lots of questions he put me in Lange RS 120s, which are far more upright than the old boots, as well as fitting my foot much better. Immediately I had control over my fore-aft balance and started to understand some basic skiing principles because I now could feel the benefit of different movements in my skiing. And when standing still, these boots put me in a relaxed athletic position which takes just a little muscle tension to maintain.

For a while I was adamantly anti forward lean, until I realized that women, like men, have different body types and skeletal geometry, so that the torture devices that screwed me up for almost two seasons were probably perfect for another skier. It's a very individual thing, so we need to be careful when making broad generalizations about gear.

BTW, I'll also point out that a number of top World Cup racers wear boots with an upright cuff.

 

[contesstant]

I just have to point out that your observations about an upright boot being about comfort and forward flex getting a skier out of the back seat are completely false for many women skiers.

I started with boots with a moderate forward lean, and they put me in an agonizingly back seat position while skiing as well as causing incredible thigh burn when I was standing still (and the resultant gigantic quads by the end of the season). I constantly struggled to get my weight centered on my ski and never felt in balance. No amount or type of boot tweaking gave me any kind of relief at all.

Finally I went to an expert bootfitter, and after examining me and asking lots of questions he put me in Lange RS 120s, which are far more upright than the old boots, as well as fitting my foot much better. Immediately I had control over my fore-aft balance and started to understand some basic skiing principles because I now could feel the benefit of different movements in my skiing. And when standing still, these boots put me in a relaxed athletic position which takes just a little muscle tension to maintain.

For a while I was adamantly anti forward lean, until I realized that women, like men, have different body types and skeletal geometry, so that the torture devices that screwed me up for almost two seasons were probably perfect for another skier. It's a very individual thing, so we need to be careful when making broad generalizations about gear.

BTW, I'll also point out that a number of top World Cup racers wear boots with an upright cuff.

This has been my experience also. I couldn't keep my shins pressed against the tongue of the boot no matter how hard I tried. So then I'd crank down on the top buckles, added Booster straps, etc. and then REALLY couldn't flex the boots. Toe lifts did the trick for me

 

[bounceswoosh]

My new boots have more forward lean. it freaks me out because when I switched to my old boots years ago, my thighs didn't get sore after just a few runs anymore. I always figured it was the upright cuff. I'll find out tomorrow, I guess.

 

[klar]

snip ... It's a very individual thing, so we need to be careful when making broad generalizations about gear.

Certainly true, sorry. And interesting comments. My observation comes mainly from people in 10 year old rental rear entry boots who simply cannot lean forward because of the boot.

 

[SnowHot]

Soo ... I just bought a new pair of boots. tecnica mach1 95. *fingers crossed*

Tecnica has hit it out of the park with that boot design! I have a sneaky suspicion that you'll be happy you made the change.

Thanks! Confused, though - bump skiers and free skiers do still need flexion ...

To your earlier question, Freeriders and bump skiers need more Up and Down but not necessarily softer. Hope that makes sense to you. I'm not sure how to put it into words.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Tecnica has hit it out of the park with that boot design! I have a sneaky suspicion that you'll be happy you made the change.

Yay! I hope you're right. Obviously I wouldn't have gone with the boot if I didn't think it would work. I can certainly flex it in the shop easily. I asked if I maybe shouldn't have a stiffer flex, just because I am a dork, but the boot guy said it was like the second stiffest version of the women's boot, something like that, and anyway that it seemed to be a good flex for me - which is more to the point. I have this "fear" of getting an intermediate boot, which I recognize is misguided because what I simply need is support, a close fit, and the right degree of flexion - after which the skill designation I think is pretty irrelevant, no?

To your earlier question, Freeriders and bump skiers need more Up and Down but not necessarily softer. Hope that makes sense to you. I'm not sure how to put it into words.

I think what you're saying is that they need to be able to flex very far in both directions for absorption, but typically these skiers are already quite strong in the absorption category, so they don't need it to be forgiving - if there's one thing bump skiers know how to do, it's flex! Makes sense to me. This also explains the "progressive flex" description of the Kryptons.

 

[contesstant]

Tecnica has hit it out of the park with that boot design! I have a sneaky suspicion that you'll be happy you made the change.


To your earlier question, Freeriders and bump skiers need more Up and Down but not necessarily softer. Hope that makes sense to you. I'm not sure how to put it into words.

So what's the difference between the Mach 95's and the Crush's?

 

[bounceswoosh]

So what's the difference between the Mach 95's and the Crush's?

Just looking at the blurb on the Tecnica site, the Crush is a low volume boot. The Mach1 is not.