Boot flex/construction question, for instructors and gear people

[contesstant]

ETA: the following is my uneducated position as someone with weird feet and who's learned how much the shape of her boot and liner affect her skiing...

Well, I'm not a doctor...but the function of orthotics in ski boots seems very different than what they do for walking, because instead of supporting your feet as you walk, they support your foot and ankle position as your foot stays more or less static in the boot. Basically, although you do pressure different parts of your foot, you can't use foot muscles alone to support you against the g-forces of a turn or to alter the angle of your mis-aligned leg as you shift your weight and edge angle throughout turns.

I used to use orthotics in my shoes, but long ago I realized that I had more plantar fascitis problems with them than without them, and over time I've found stretches and exercises that don't just relieve them, but completely prevent them as long as I do them every once in a while.

However, I wouldn't go without my bootfitter's wonderful custom-built footbeds under my feet; they're part of the total shape of the inside of my liners to give me the performance fit that allows me to feel the snow surface underfoot and precisely communicates every little change in pressure to my skis.

This is exactly where my brain was going, too. Custom molded footbeds (I have Superfeet Korks) are in there to provide a solid platform to help you essentially leverage against a rather long plank strapped to your foot inside a very hard, immobile boot. There is a time and place to work on strengthening those foot muscles and I'm not sure inside the ski boot is one of those times or places. I couldn't believe the difference when I went from Superfeet Greens to custom-molded Korks. In any other shoes, boots, etc. I prefer a nice cushy footbed. But that rigid, supportive footbed is money inside my ski boots. It makes it so much easier to get those inside edges engaged.

So Climbingbetty, just some things to think about. I 100% get where you are coming from and I agree with you for the most part, but keep exploring and don't rule out custom footbeds. There are times to strengthen the feet, and times to just straight up support them and I think skiing is one of those latter times.

And if you're having bootwork done on your current boots, are you paying for it? If so, your money might be better spent on new boots this season vs. continuing to put money into your old boots that you're not particularly happy with. (Speaking from experience...and someone with an extremely low-volume foot.)

 

[Skisailor]

Hi climbingbetty.

As a chiro you certainly do know more than the average bear. !!

But as litterbug suggested above . . Custom footbeds in ski boots are the gold standard and usually the very first thing that should be addressed with alignment issues - especially for something as common as pronation A framing. For whatever reason it seems to be very different than footbeds in other footwear.

Working on the outside of the boot shell can create other problems as Vanhoskier has described.

Most serious skiers I know have custom footbeds in their boots - some for decades - with no issues - but don't use footbeds in any other footwear.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

I agree with @Skisailor and @contesstant, re: the importance of custom footbeds.

As a chiropractor, @climbingbetty, you surely know that what the feet are doing and how they are retained in a ski boot bear no resemblance to anything natural in terms of body posture or foot use.

That very situation you described above: of feeling as though your toes were “talons” trying to grab the foot bed, is one that is immediately addressed and resolved with a custom ski boot foot bed. The molded “ridge” that results with customization gives toes a comfortable platform - and thus no gripping or cramps.

The benefits go on from there - notably, support for arches that tend to flatten with pressure. You’re also more likely aware than I of the statistics of how many individuals experience some degree of pronation, to some degree. It’s quite high.

Additionally, this is not a recurring expense, if done correctly. Mine date to fall, 1996. They are checked any time I try on boots or have anything done to current ones - and they are still completely fine and functional. That’s 18 years. A seriously good value.

As to leg length discrepancy, you also surely know that it’s very often attributed to pelvic alignment. I tend to shift and twist, making my left leg anywhere from 1/4" to 1" (ouch) shorter than my right. My chiropractor knows exactly what to do. Unless I have some major fall or trauma, it tends to hold for 6 months to a year.

 

[contesstant]

Yes, MSL, I also used to grab with my toes like talons until I got the footbeds. Boy would my calves get sore!

 

[altagirl]

Most serious skiers I know have custom footbeds in their boots - some for decades - with no issues - but don't use footbeds in any other footwear.

I wear barefoot style running shoes and avoid anything with arch support like the plague.... EXCEPT ski boots. For that, I have (expensive) hand built footbeds, which thankfully last well over a decade and transfer from old to new boots easily.

The only other thing I've used them with are my carbon fiber soled road biking shoes, which also have zero flexibility in the soles. If my foot can move though, i like to use my foot muscles to provide support. When it's basically strapped immobile into a shell, it's not the same thing. That's my thought anyway.

 

[Gloria]

@vanhoskier Well the boot shells are all ready messed with so....

As for foot beds.... I'll keep that in mind, but I'm not sure I'm there yet.. I'm a chiropractor in my everyday life. So, I know more than the average bear about alignment, I'm just missing the piece of how the affects of one's specific alignment show up in their skiing. I certainly learned a lot about that this weekend. Admittedly, I have my own personal biases... like I'm really not a fan of foot beds. They lead to atrophy of the intrinsic muscles of the foot. Unfortunately, so many of us grow up wearing shoes and we develop foot problems secondary to this weakness, but then use 'bandaid' solutions like orthotics to correct it. I stuck the foot beds in there a while back because I have a low volume foot and needed something to take up a little room and also because I would sometimes get terrible cramps in the muscles in the plantar surface of my foot.


Thank you for this and I agree with this on alot of levels. Last year DD all of a sudden was unable to stand flat in her boots the fitter wanted to plane the bottom of her boots but I wouldn't let him initially so he put together a make shift deal using her insole etc and foam to show us what it would do after the boots were planed. She didn't even make it a full hour before she took everything back out of her boot due to pain. From there her and I looked at the fact that she had been in a playboat from the time ski season ended the year before until about that time. We did some stretching and strengthening to counter those effects and two weeks later, she was standing flat in her boots again. No planing etc.

One thing I think you would like is a program called coaches eye. You can download it onto your phone. If you can get SO to take some pictures of you skiing you can use the app to draw lines etc on yourself and analyze your in motion posture, it's really a pretty cool app.

 

[tinymoose]

Has anyone else found that their feet cramp in the arch, especially early in the season, with their custom footbeds? I've got those moldable Kork Superfeet footbeds, but the arch support in them is a lot more extreme than in any of my normal shoes. I wear a lot of really flat shoes day to day with little to no arch support, other than my running shoes. My feet always seem able to adjust, but initially they start cramping right in the arch of my foot, I guess because the arch is kept relatively static? I'm not extremely flat-footed nor do I have an high arch. It's not enough to bother me, I've just always found it really weird. lol

 

[altagirl]

Has anyone else found that their feet cramp in the arch, especially early in the season, with their custom footbeds? I've got those moldable Kork Superfeet footbeds, but the arch support in them is a lot more extreme than in any of my normal shoes. I wear a lot of really flat shoes day to day with little to no arch support, other than my running shoes. My feet always seem able to adjust, but initially they start cramping right in the arch of my foot, I guess because the arch is kept relatively static? I'm not extremely flat-footed nor do I have an high arch. It's not enough to bother me, I've just always found it really weird. lol

Yes, but only on the first day or two. Calves cramp too sometimes, and I think it is the walking, not the skiing that usually gets me more. I think this is like an inevitable adjustment period for me, as they go back to being really comfortable after that. I just attempt to ease back into ski season with shorter days and that makes it easier - if I just do a few runs and don't walk too far in boots the first few days it doesn't really happen. I'm sure it would help of I walked around in my ski boots off and on through the summer it would help too, but that's not really going to happen. ..

 

[MissySki]

That said, I'm the self-professed queen of alignment issues. Without properly made foot beds, I have an A frame due to pronation of my feet and a curved tibia. I had foot beds made by boot fitter/pedorthist Jim Lindsay in Aspen, who is top notch. But I still have some issues with my right foot. I'm in a Lange RS 120 LV which is an awesome boot but I'm going to go with the Fischer Vacuums next year since they'll mold to my tibia shape and my super narrow feet.

Even with my Fischer Vacuums it's a work in progress as far as my alignment goes. While I am a million times better than I used to be (at least functionally?), I do still have an A-frame. During my first race clinic last weekend, one of the instructors who also fits boots at the mountain mentioned that I was A-framing a lot. I was aghast like "I fixed this (or tried to multiple times) and feel so much better, what do you mean I'm still A-framing?!?!" He told me that I probably couldn't feel it because I've adapted my skiing to accommodate the alignment issues i.e. even though I was A-framing, I correct it in my skiing now and actually had the same edge angles on both skis in my turns, it's just not as efficient of a way to ski.

So I went to the shop after that clinic so he could check my boots out. Turns out that all he ended up doing was rotating a wedge that moved each cuff 2 degrees out. It made a huge difference even just standing in the store, I felt my hips open up a bunch. The next day I skied with him again for a couple of hours and he assured me that I looked much better. I asked if I needed more done, and he said he thought I was at a "good enough" place now. It felt a little weird skiing, but not bad, I think I have to now reteach my muscles what to do because I'm used to autocorrecting my feet. I did notice that my edge to edge speed felt quicker with no hang-ups at the ends of my turns which is where I would notice some delay, catching or sticking of my tail edges every once in awhile especially in certain types of snow and bumps.

I think when I need new boots, whether or not I go with the Vacuums again, I'm going to have new footbeds made as well by a pedorthist this time to see if more can be addressed in the boot. My footbeds were made a few boots ago by the shop I don't trust at all at this point. When I was standing in the shop Saturday DH said I looked better outside of my boot, and then when I got in my boot my A-frame got more pronounced. So I'm wondering if my footbeds are actually contributing to some of my alignment woes.

All in all I'm at least excited to be skiing with someone all season who can give me feedback on my boot and alignment issues as we go. My bootfitter got me really close, but also didn't have the added benefit of skiing with me since things can look way different statically versus dynamically.

 

[contesstant]

Even with my Fischer Vacuums it's a work in progress as far as my alignment goes. While I am a million times better than I used to be (at least functionally?), I do still have an A-frame. During my first race clinic last weekend, one of the instructors who also fits boots at the mountain mentioned that I was A-framing a lot. I was aghast like "I fixed this (or tried to multiple times) and feel so much better, what do you mean I'm still A-framing?!?!" He told me that I probably couldn't feel it because I've adapted my skiing to accommodate the alignment issues i.e. even though I was A-framing, I correct it in my skiing now and actually had the same edge angles on both skis in my turns, it's just not as efficient of a way to ski.

So I went to the shop after that clinic so he could check my boots out. Turns out that all he ended up doing was rotating a wedge that moved each cuff 2 degrees out. It made a huge difference even just standing in the store, I felt my hips open up a bunch. The next day I skied with him again for a couple of hours and he assured me that I looked much better. I asked if I needed more done, and he said he thought I was at a "good enough" place now. It felt a little weird skiing, but not bad, I think I have to now reteach my muscles what to do because I'm used to autocorrecting my feet. I did notice that my edge to edge speed felt quicker with no hang-ups at the ends of my turns which is where I would notice some delay, catching or sticking of my tail edges every once in awhile especially in certain types of snow and bumps.

I think when I need new boots, whether or not I go with the Vacuums again, I'm going to have new footbeds made as well by a pedorthist this time to see if more can be addressed in the boot. My footbeds were made a few boots ago by the shop I don't trust at all at this point. When I was standing in the shop Saturday DH said I looked better outside of my boot, and then when I got in my boot my A-frame got more pronounced. So I'm wondering if my footbeds are actually contributing to some of my alignment woes.

All in all I'm at least excited to be skiing with someone all season who can give me feedback on my boot and alignment issues as we go. My bootfitter got me really close, but also didn't have the added benefit of skiing with me since things can look way different statically versus dynamically.

I have this problem a lot! Interesting! Isn't it crazy how much the tiniest things can make such a dramatic difference?!