Abandoning/pushing beginners

[Jilly]

Missyski - this student kept asking me if she needed to do more exercises off season. Not really, she needed to listen to what I was saying and do the work. She told me had skied at Calabogie off their chairlift. That is much harder hill than ours. After 10 hours of lesson she still couldn't make it down a beginner run without fall every other turn. My feeling is that she thought that this sport was going to be easy. As an adult it's tough to learn, but you have to listen and do what is asked, or your just wasting your money.

Big thing to me is that she is hazzard because she can't seem to stop falling and thinks it's OK and will try to come down a blue run. That run is way above her ability.

 

[snow addict]

I'm not sure I understand the sentiment that "some people just shouldn't try to learn this sport" though.. Is that for anyone to decide except the student? I would think from the description of what was happening with this particular student that it was in fact someone who really wanted to learn the correct way of doing things and was quite dedicated since they were taking multiple lessons, but obviously there was some disconnect of how to do that or perhaps some physical issue that wasn't known.. who knows what it might be, snowsports are hard and there are so many variables mentally and physically. What seems or feels obvious to one person could be completely different to someone else who is just starting out. In that case though if they were very unsafe to themselves and others it seems to me that they should have been held on the bunny hill indefinitely until such a time when they could be safe elsewhere. Who is creating the unsafe environment in that case? I'd argue it to be the instructor (no offense) and not the student. Scaring her into understanding seems like something everyone on this thread is saying is the wrong thing to do when people take beginners to terrain they are not ready for, this seems a strange approach for an instructor to take no? I don't think people should be written off if they just don't get it for awhile, if they are willing to stick with it and pay for lessons then they have every bit as much right as anyone to learn even if that means it's the bunny hill for a really long time with goals they need to meet before they are allowed off of it.

But it's actually true that some people probably just shouldn't. One my instructors friends actually even said that to his long-term client who over the years couldn't progress beyond the blue and even there when it steepens up a bit he has to be "skied down" - with instructor skiing backwards in front of him and holding his hand. He is sticking to it and sees himself skiing harder terrain but it's just not happening even that he skied for many years. Instructors don't do it just for money, not the good ones anyway, they like watching their students progressing so when progress is not happening it can be frustrating. Especially if they get to know the clients and watch them spending lot of money on private lessons that don't seem to do them any good. As for keeping an otherwise fit adult (and not an older person or a little child) on bunny slopes "indefinitely" - there is a limit to everything, and if with all the lessons and instructor's input over certain time there is no progress, there could be something with this individual's sense of balance which can affect their performance in certain sports. So while it's true that it takes different people different amount of time to learn, when time has passed and progress is absent instructors start wondering... Mainly because with their experience they have seen many things so they notice when something is unusual.

 

[altagirl]

Obviously it's the students prerogative to spend as much time and money as they want trying to learn.

But I do think an element of honesty is appreciated. If you have truly seen someone giving it plenty of time and effort and they are not making progress even compared to really slow learners, I think they would rather hear "maybe this isn't your sport" than to keep taking their money. Unless they're honestly happy crashing around a bunny slope with an instructor for the long term...

I'm sure it varies person to person somewhat, and most people would quit on their own, but you never know.

 

[bounceswoosh]

He is sticking to it and sees himself skiing harder terrain but it's just not happening even that he skied for many years. Instructors don't do it just for money, not the good ones anyway, they like watching their students progressing so when progress is not happening it can be frustrating.

I can understand it could be frustrating to the instructor, but that's no reason to tell the student to stop trying.

Another possibility is that a different instructor with a different approach could help the student. Or just time. It takes me a long time to learn anything new that's physical.

 

[Jilly]

OK - I never told my student. But I do know an instructor that made the suggestion to another student. That's where the statement came from.

And a good instructor knows how to change tactics, when the first one doesn't work. We call it our Toolbox. There are many different ways of explaining things. And as we all know, people have different learning styles. Some can watch and learn, some need a detailed description/explaination, some need their hands held. As an instructor I need to figure out which learning style a student has. In a group lesson you can have watch, descriptive and a combination of both. My particular student was supposed to be in a group lesson, but the rest of the students progressed beyond her and I had to find another instructor to work with them. And to add to it, when I approached the snow school supervisor about this student and my problems, she just told me to push her.......Push her, she wasn't safe enough to push yet. So I had to move the rest of the group.

I had my meniscus tear and arthritis acting up so bad I had to quit teaching that year. Thing was I didn't know at the time what my physical problem was or I would have passed on teaching period.

 

[bounceswoosh]

And to add to it, when I approached the snow school supervisor about this student and my problems, she just told me to push her.

Ugh.

 

[MissySki]

I can understand it could be frustrating to the instructor, but that's no reason to tell the student to stop trying.

Another possibility is that a different instructor with a different approach could help the student. Or just time. It takes me a long time to learn anything new that's physical.

Agreed, and certainly this isn't to pick on Jilly, I just thought it was an odd comment overall. Especially on a forum where we want to encourage women of all ages/abilities/athleticism etc. to ski! Perhaps it struck me that way because I take awhile to pick things up as well, and I love skiing so much now. I can't imagine never having gotten to this point because someone turned me off to it in the beginning because I was slow to pick it up and terrified to boot. I'm quite clutzy really and feel incredibly awkward when I try new athletic endeavors.

When I was younger I ice skated competitively and boy can I still remember the days of falling and falling and falling trying to learn new jumps. Then once you got a skill it'd be onto the next one that will have you all over the ice all practice once again. That definitely didn't come naturally to me either, but I loved it. I remember it took me soooooo many months to land my first axel and my falls were so bad everyday that my coach made me purchase a butt pad (looks like a padded diaper you wear over your clothes) because she started worrying I was going to break my tail bone after some especially bad falls. Oh the pain I endured before that padding, I so thought I had broken something more than once!!! I was a tough kid though (around 9 years old) and I would keep getting up and doing it over and over again with her yelling at me the whole while, but I didn't complain once and I refused to let her see me cry so I held it in and kept going no matter how much it hurt. That might sound harsh, but she was a great coach and caring despite her tough love on the ice, and I preferred her over anyone else who had coached me with a nicey nice blow smoke up your butt approach. Different strokes for different folks.. I got so many congratulations the first day I landed that jump in particular for the first time because EVERYONE in that rink saw what it took me to get it, and how much difficulty and repetition it took for me to get there.

Anyway, I just don't like the idea of discouraging anyone from this amazing sport unless there is some amazingly good reason, and I cannot think of all that many on my own.. If someone wants to push themselves until they can do something, so be it.

 

[nopoleskier]

On the back side of Heavenly at the very bottom, there is a board showing the number of skiers losing passes due to reckless skiing/riding.. By the end of the season that number is in the hundreds .. The non reckless skiers are a worry as well skiing very slowly on a steep run smack in the middle in a big traverse .. This can be dangerous for everyone as skiers are whizzing by..

OMG hundreds!!! Why we need "real" certified understanding instructors

 

[bounceswoosh]

OMG hundreds!!! Why we need "real" certified understanding instructors

They have a sign like that at Breck ... off by at least one order of magnitude.

 

[santacruz skier]

Vail Resorts doesn't want that liability!

 

[Jilly]

I'm sorry I mentioned it. It was a statement made by one my fellow instructors at Tremblant. In reality I think there are only 0.01% of the population that really could not grasp any sport. Some people are not sport people. We are all like minded here.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

On the back side of Heavenly at the very bottom, there is a board showing the number of skiers losing passes due to reckless skiing/riding.. By the end of the season that number is in the hundreds .. The non reckless skiers are a worry as well skiing very slowly on a steep run smack in the middle in a big traverse .. This can be dangerous for everyone as skiers are whizzing by..

Too bad everywhere can't have such a display. Reckless people are a danger to everyone and people need to truly have their passes taken away more often.

We are taught to teach control and safety always first and foremost.

I see too many people on trails that seem to have been abandoned by their friends. I always stop and ask if they are ok or need any help.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

Some people are not sport people.

I'm going to side with @Jilly here (or, more precisely, her ex-coworker), because there are quite a few sports that I've tried that I just was not up for. Even now, when I try something and realize I just don't have the coordination for it, I try to shut up and just leave, because, if I say anything about my limitations, I get surrounded by people who try to find a way for it to work for me… often resulting in an injury. "Overcoming obstacles" is a great narrative, but often overrated.

When I teach counseling students, I tell them that it is the teachers' responsibility to let the student know when they are not suited for it. This is easy to see, since being a counselor is suited to a relatively small number of people, and the training can cost dozens of thousands of dollars. Still, I think the analogy holds for any activity, sports or otherwise; there are people who are not suited for any given activity, and would be well-served by being told this, and maybe pointed toward a sport that is better suited to them. If this had happened to me, I would have returned to skiing much sooner! (And, no, I will not try skiing switch, or do anything that involves a spin.)

Now, in Jilly's particular example, the student's problem may have been more about not listening than having no physical aptitude. In that case, it could just have been a matter of finding another instructor who could somehow get through to her. Counselors do that with clients all the time: we are not a good fit, try this other person. If I try to keep a client who is not a good fit with me, things end up going badly. And then there are clients who don't seem to fit with anyone, and drift from one counselor to another. That doesn't mean they will never get better, but it could mean that counseling is not what they need. Maybe they just need to keep falling down the hill on their own, and enjoy it as best they can.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Eh. I had a music teacher in 5th grade turn me away from flute to clarinet because I couldn't get the flute to make a sound in a couple of minutes of trying. I never liked that wooden reed.

Sports are not like careers (unless sports are your career) - you don't have to be good at them to find them rewarding. I started Taekwondo in 10th grade, having never done any sport ever. I really sucked. After the first day I spent 4 days straight on the couch with Ibuprofen as my companion.

When I got my first degree black belt, my master instructor said I'd gone from having three left feet to only two.

TKD was the first activity I pursued even though I wasn't naturally good at it. Everything was a struggle. I worked so hard. I honestly think I might have quit college if I hadn't had TKD first - because at college, I went from being really good without even trying, to suddenly having to figure out how to study and how to deal with bad grades. At least TKD had given me a foundation for pushing through.

So, yeah, obviously hit a nerve with me here.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

So, yeah, obviously hit a nerve with me here.

I guess we have opposite nerves.

 

[bounceswoosh]

In any case, I'm sure we can all agree that there aren't a whole lot of "unteachable" skiers out there.

 

[altagirl]

In any case, I'm sure we can all agree that there aren't a whole lot of "unteachable" skiers out there.

Very true.

It also makes me think of stories of people who were even more driven to success because someone told them they couldn't.

But skiing carries enough risk that I'm not sure I could keep encouraging someone who was constantly falling even on the easiest terrain available. Backing off to easier terrain is the normal solution, but when the bunny slope continues to cause crashes over many lessons... that's a tough one.

 

[bounceswoosh]

But skiing carries enough risk that I'm not sure I could keep encouraging someone who was constantly falling even on the easiest terrain available. Backing off to easier terrain is the normal solution, but when the bunny slope continues to cause crashes over many lessons... that's a tough one.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

but when the bunny slope continues to cause crashes over many lessons... that's a tough one.

The person I tried to help down the hill, that I mentioned earlier, actually had the intuitive ability to make a nice turn, but the turn itself completely freaked her out. It was partly because she was already freaked out and exhausted from having been abandoned on a gnarly day, but to me that meant that she was not going to make it down the hill on skis. Maybe another day, but definitely not that day. When I asked her about it, she came to the same conclusion. Page ski patrol. (This is how I remember it today; who knows what I said before, me and my deteriorating memory... )

On that same day, I had my daughter with me. I had taken her to a blue slope to enjoy the fluffy powder we had. She kept complaining that the trail was too steep, although it was not. Kept falling. The powder was just too much of a leap for her. Asked her if she'd like to go back to green groomers; we helped that person on our way back, and then we had one of the best days together.

My wife is more of a natural athlete than I am, but she has had a number of health problems, and has not been able to get to solid intermediate on skis. Got her new skis, new boots, but I had to be clear that there is no pressure if she can't do it. (It was more from hope that the right equipment would give her the best chance.)

Maybe the compromise position between me and @bounceswoosh is not to decide for someone that they are not capable, but to ask them, and 1) to believe them when they say they are not, and 2) to encourage them when they want to try some more? Of course, with a little bit of pushing with 1), and a little bit of caution with 2).

 

[snow addict]

I can understand it could be frustrating to the instructor, but that's no reason to tell the student to stop trying.

Another possibility is that a different instructor with a different approach could help the student. Or just time. It takes me a long time to learn anything new that's physical.

How much time if many years of skiing haven't changed anything? It happens that some people are not made for certain sports, they may like them and keep trying but ultimately make very little progress if any. We are not talking even about "perennial intermediates", this is normal and breaking through a plateau make take different people different time, but when with regular skiing and lessons intermediate level is still out of reach, at some point it's time to give up.

My childhood friend never mastered ice skating even that we started at the same age, around 3, yet years later she would still only "skate" holding the side of the rink. She was sporty and active otherwise, but put her on two blades and hard slippery surface and it was all gone out of the window. No coach would want to work with her, they choose kids who have the right kind of balance to stand on ice, when it's not there it cannot be learned, all we ever learned were to utilize the balance and speed and edges.

It would be naive and idealistic to think that absolutely everyone can learn absolutely everything given the right approach. It is simply not true. And if someone says it is, just try one more approach, or try this or that school, this or that method, these people are likely after the cash.